Homers and Haters

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    Homers and Haters

         A couple of weeks ago, I got into it with several Homers over my criticisms of BB's drafts, from 2006-present. I was, and have been, referred to as a troll over these criticisms. Here is my response:

         For over the past 10 years, I have been a regular poster on this forum. I got drawn in primarily due to the Patriots' rivalry with the hated Bill Polian/Peyton Manning Colts. During my first few years, I championed Tom Brady over Peyton Manning, and the Patriot Way over the conniving Polian and the preaching of "the Pius One", Tony Dungy. Being in full "In Bill We Trust" mode as I was (yes...I too at one time was a Homer!)...I rarely questioned anything he did. I supported him in both his personnel, and his coaching moves. After all, what was there not to like? The Patriots won back to back titles in 2003-04, and had regularly humiliated the hated Horseface in head to head match-ups. 

         In 2007, I supported and vigorously defended BB during the "spygate" BS...as I still do to this day. But, then came the drafts from 2006-2009. Still in the "In Bill We Trust" mode, I supported his draft selections, and touted his personnel moves. After all, he's BB!! He MUST know what's right!

         But...after the team got blown out at home by the Ravens, 33-14, in the 2009 play-offs, got embarrassed by the Mark Sanchez led Jets in the 2010 play-offs, and lost a second SB to the NY Giants in 2011, I began asking questions...why?

         The main reasons for the above losses appeared to be a flawed defense, with the main culprits being a tepid pass rush, and a weak secondary. When I looked for answers as to why the Pats' pass defense had deteriorated to one of the worst in the game...I began examining BB's past drafts.

         The Pats had lost the lynchpins of their pass defense, CB Ty Law and SS Rodney Harrison, to old age. They lost CB Asante Samuel to free agency, and their best pass rushers, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and Richard Seymour, to old age. Yet, BB had gotten no help through the draft since 2006 to rectify the situation.

         In 2006, BB used his 21st overall pick on RB Laurence Maroney, his 36th overall pick (acquired by trading his 52nd and 75th overall picks), on WR Chad Jackson, their 86th overall pick on TE David Thomas, their 106th pick on TE Garrett Mills, their 118th pick on PK Stephen Gostkowski, and their 136th overall pick on OT Ryan O"Callaghan.

         In 2007, BB used his 24th overall pick on FS Brandon Meriweather, his 127th pick on DT Kareem Brown, and the remaining low rounders on nobodies.

         In 2008, BB used his 10th overall pick on LB Jerod Mayo, his 62nd pick on CB Terrence Wheatley, his 78th overall pick on LB Shawn Crable, his 94th overall pick on QB Kevin O'Connell, 129th pick on CB Jonathan Wilhite, 153rd pick on WR Matt Slater, and 197th pick on LB Bo Ruud.

         In 2009, BB traded down, trading their 23rd overall pick to Baltimore (who used it to acquire their starting RT, Michael Oher), for the Ravens' 26th and 162nd overall picks. BB then traded those two picks to Green Bay (Packers used the 26th overall pick to land DE/OLB Clay Matthews), in exchange for the 41st, 73rd, and 83rd overall picks. BB also had the 34th overall pick, which he obtained in the Matt Cassell trade with Kansas City. With the 34th overall pick, he selected SS Patrick Chung. He then traded used his 47th, 124th and 199th picks to Oakland for the 40th overall selection, which he used to draft DT Ron Brace. The 41st overall pick was used to select CB Darius Butler. The 58th selection was used on OT Sebastien Vollmer, the 83rd on WR Brandon Tate, the 97th on Tyrone McKenzie, the 123rd on OG Rich Ohrnberger, and with his remaining 5 late round selections landed no one of consequence, other than WR Julian Edelman.

         In 2010, BB landed FS Devin McCourty at #27, TE Gronk at #42, the soon to be released OLB/DE Jermaine Cunningham at #53, ILB Brandon Spikes at #62, the worthless WR, Taylor Price at #90, TE Aaron Hernandez at #113, and punter Zoltan Mesko, at #153. No one of significance was drafted with the five remaining late round picks...unless you want to count the recently released Brandon Deaderick.

         In 2011, BB scored with LT Nate Solder, flopped with the injury prone Ras-I Dowling at pick #33, and did well with RBs Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley (56th and 73rd overall picks). The jury is still out on QB Ryan Mallett at #74, and OG Marcus Cannon , at #138. The final three late round picks were no one of consequence.

         Going into the 2012 draft, I had lost my Homerism, and became more objective. Other than McCourty, Spikes, Mayo, and, to some degree, Meriweather, it was evident that BB had added nothing to his "D" through the draft, from 2006-11!

         It was at this point that I began reading everything and anything that I could get my hands on to try to figure out why BB had whiffed so often. He had left behind a grave yard of misses with high picks, from 2006-11. He got very little from the 21st, 36th, 86th, and 106th picks in 2006, the 24th and 127th overall picks in 2007, the 62nd, 78th, and 94th picks in 2008, the 34th, 40th, 41st, 83rd, and 97th picks in 2009, the 53rd and 90th picks in 2010, and the 33rd overall pick in 2011.

         During the 2012 draft, I was elated on Day One when BB significantly addressed his defense, by trading up to select DE Chandler Jones at #21, and LB Dont'a Hightower at #25. But then...he reverted to his wasteful ways by inexplicably using his 48th overall pick on DB Tavon Wilson! BB then wasted the 90th overall pick on DE Jake Bequette. He somewhat made up for the awful Wilson pick by selecting the legally troubled CB Alfonzo Dennard in the 7th round.

         The refrain from the Homers has been, "we won more games than any other team over the years you're talking about, been to two SBs"...yada yada yada. All true...but I see the Pats' success since 2006 as a tribute to the greatness of Tom Brady, and of BB, the coach. Had BB drafted better, the Patriots would have won several more championships, and would be discussed with the same reverence as the Packers of the 60s, the Steelers of the 70s, and the 49ers of the 80s.

         So...that's it. I guess this makes me a troll, right...you Homers and haters?                 

                 

     
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    Re: Homers and Haters

    TP

    I once was a rabid fan of a team with a long history of success at the highest level (read: not Patsies, sorry) and roughly arrived on these pages at roughly the same time.  i was amazed at how quickly HOMERISIM came to reign in Boston And quite frankly read these pages much like people are drawn to gawk at an accident.  TP, you WERE a HUGE HOMER.  Probabwas one of the most outspoken.  Having seen the cyclicality of NFL dominance with my own team, I did feel compelled to point out the inevitable on the boards, whether rightly or wrongly (e.g.  Patriots on the downside of the hill, c.a. 2006, as I recognized imp challenge of the  significant and impending turnover on the Patriots D.   You have changed your stripes.  Does that make you a troll?  No.  And neither did my comments make me a troll, or as it was said then, toga.....hahaha

    p.s. take no offense, but I do still worry about your influence on young minds.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from cyncalpatfan. Show cyncalpatfan's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters


    For all of the years that I have read your posts, I have come to know one thing about you.  You are truly a passionate football fan.  You take it to a level that goes well beyond any of my observations of this team.  So, I'm afraid that I'm really in no position to argue with you.  That being said...as knowledgable as you might be, I'm reasonably confident that BB's knowledge of all of the different nuances of the game goes well beyond your understanding, as well.  I guess what I am saying is, while I do appreciate and respect your opinion, I don't believe it has any more credibility than anybody else's here, no matter how much you might think it does.

     
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    Re: Homers and Haters

     

    Tex, I think you have a point about BB's drafting, but you maybe are a bit too negative.  My own feeling is that BB's not nearly as bad at it as you portray, but certainly not the infallible draft genius Rusty claims.  Like you, I question his penchant for trading down so much, though I also think the strategy has its merits given the low picks the Pats have had and the need for flexibility in the salary cap, especially pre rookie salary cap. I don't think it's realistic to expect all that much from picks in the fourth round and below--most of these guys are just filler who are lucky to last in the NFL for more than a few years.  And while first round and high second round picks should end up as starters, the lower second round and third round is very variable in quality and many of those picks end up as back ups or roster filler.  If you look at BB's picks in the second and third rounds, he's done about average--a few hits, a few misses, and a lot of guys who aren't that much better or worse than the other guys picked near them. I think the question is whether he would have been better to have stuck at times with his initial draft pick rather than trading down so much into lower rounds where quality is hard to find.  He takes a lot of chances in those lower rounds, trying to find diamonds in the rough.  While those chances sometimes work, a lot end up as busts.  I think Tavon Wilson was one of those chances . . . as was Butler and Tate and in some ways Gronk and Hern.  BB is hoping to find the overlooked guy who's more talented than his draft position suggests.  Sometimes that works, but when it doesn't work it looks bad.  Still, it's a sensible strategy to help cope with low draft picks.  The Pats simply don't have the luxury of having picks in the upper halves of each round.  Generally, they are picking right at the bottom of each round.  That requires a more aggressive strategy, and I think that's what BB has done.  As in investing, risk and reward go together, but the risk sometimes realizes and rewards are never guaranteed. 

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:


    For all of the years that I have read your posts, I have come to know one thing about you.  You are truly a passionate football fan.  You take it to a level that goes well beyond any of my observations of this team.  So, I'm afraid that I'm really in no position to argue with you.  That being said...as knowledgable as you might be, I'm reasonably confident that BB's knowledge of all of the different nuances of the game goes well beyond your understanding, as well.  I guess what I am saying is, while I do appreciate and respect your opinion, I don't believe it has any more credibility than anybody else's here, no matter how much you might think it does.



         I'm not claiming to know more about football than BB. All I've done is try to answer the question of why the Pats haven't won a championship since 2004. Years ago the Patriots always seemed to rise to the occasion in the big games, against the better teams. Not so much, anymore. 

         What I stated above about his drafts are simply facts...he's missed with a ton of high picks...and he hasn't effectively rebuilt his defense through the draft.  

     
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    Re: Homers and Haters

    Look, I'm not saying you are wrong, TP, but any fair analysis should be comparative to other teams during that period. It is just too easy to evaluate some of the picks against what could have been. Would Clay Mathews have succes here? Would Oher? Who knows, though I would take Vollmer over Oher 7 days a week - and twice on sundays.

    Sure, there have been misses during the period, but what teams don't miss from time to time.

    Futhermore, I think it is somewhat biased to take a sample of years of BB drafting as evidence that he is a poor drafter. I think the 2010-2012 drafts have been great, though of course we could question the Hernandez pick.

    But in the end, I don't really care if he drafts well or not. Through more than 10 years the Patriots have been contenders on a fairly consistent basis. That doesn't happen if you only have a great coach and QB. You need other players as well. Come from the draft, UDFAs or free agents doesn't matter in itself.

    They are going to be contenders again this year. When the post-season arrives it is all about injuries. If Gronk is healthy in SB46 we win, and if Talib stays on the field in the latest AFCCG we are a h*ll of a lot closer than we ended being.

    My point is, the glass is (more than) half full, not half empty.

     

    Supra societatem nemo

     
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    Re: Homers and Haters


    Like I said, I'm not educated enough in the fine art of drafting to be able to put together a reasonable argument, I'm afraid.  So, I have to read what others have written and determine what makes the most sense to me, given the limited amount of knowledge that I do have.  To me, what Prolate wrote makes the most sense.  I know that, because of their consistent success, the team is typically forced to pick from the latter ends of each round.  It seems to me that BB is simply trying to employ a strategy that allows him to increase his odds of adding good quality players.  I suppose the drawback is that he is not focusing all of his efforts on one single (potentially) excellent player.  The fact that they have lost the last two Super Bowls that they were in, to me, is not a reflection of something that BB is doing wrong as a GM.  Both of those games were winnable with the teams that were on the field.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Tex, I think you have a point about BB's drafting, but you maybe are a bit too negative.  My own feeling is that BB's not nearly as bad at it as you portray, but certainly not the infallible draft genius Rusty claims.  Like you, I question his penchant for trading down so much, though I also think the strategy has its merits given the low picks the Pats have had and the need for flexibility in the salary cap, especially pre rookie salary cap.

     

    REPONSE: Actually, I tend to like the trading down strategy. He usually receives an advantage in terms of assets received, in additioonal draft choices. It's who he selects with those picks that is the problem. 

     

    I don't think it's realistic to expect all that much from picks in the fourth round and below--most of these guys are just filler who are lucky to last in the NFL for more than a few years.

     

    RESPONSE: Agreed. But, I'm not talking about lower round picks. Look at the number of top 100 picks that he's whiffed on since 2006, listed in my initial post. 

     

     And while first round and high second round picks should end up as starters, the lower second round and third round is very variable in quality and many of those picks end up as back ups or roster filler.  If you look at BB's picks in the second and third rounds, he's done about average--a few hits, a few misses, and a lot of guys who aren't that much better or worse than the other guys picked near them. I think the question is whether he would have been better to have stuck at times with his initial draft pick rather than trading down so much into lower rounds where quality is hard to find.

     

    RESPONSE: In 2006, BB traded up...giving up his 52nd and 75th overall picks for the 36th overall pick...used to select the forgettable WR, Chad Jackson. In 2007, we can't complain about his trades of the 60th overall pick and a 4th round pick for WRs Wes Welker and Randy Moss...but we certainly can complain about how 24th overall pick Brandon Meriweather turned out. He also traded the 28th overall pick that year to San Francisco, and ended up getting, in essence, the 10th and 78th overall picks, in the 2008 draft (Mayo and Shawn Crable). In 2009, he did miss out on Clay Matthews...but did spin one of the picks obtained in return to land Gronk in 2010. You also can't hate the deal he made in 2011 with New Orleans, when he sent his 28th pick to the Saints for the 56th overall pick (Vereen), and the Saints #1 pick in 2012, which he eventually used as partial payment to move up, and draft DE Chandler Jones.

     

         So...his trades aren't the problem. It's his draft selections where he has wilted.   

     

     He takes a lot of chances in those lower rounds, trying to find diamonds in the rough.  While those chances sometimes work, a lot end up as busts.  I think Tavon Wilson was one of those chances . . . as was Butler and Tate and in some ways Gronk and Hern.

     

    RESPONSE: I agree that he took chances...but the 48th overall pick (Wilson), the 41st overall pick (Butler), and the 83rd overall pick (Tate) are not "lower round picks". I consider anything after the top 100 to a "lower round pick". Both Wilson and Butler were mid-high second rounders. Why he took an injured Tate, who failed a drug test at the Combine...when one knows that they're going to be tested, baffles me.   

     

     BB is hoping to find the overlooked guy who's more talented than his draft position suggests.  Sometimes that works, but when it doesn't work it looks bad.  Still, it's a sensible strategy to help cope with low draft picks.  The Pats simply don't have the luxury of having picks in the upper halves of each round.  Generally, they are picking right at the bottom of each round.  That requires a more aggressive strategy, and I think that's what BB has done.  As in investing, risk and reward go together, but the risk sometimes realizes and rewards are never guaranteed. 

     

    RESPONSE: Unlike some here, I don't fault BB for drafting Aaron Hernandez in the 4th round, or Alfonzo Dennard in round 7. That's the time for taking chances. But, taking an injury prone Dowling in 2011 was a huge risk, with the 33rd overall pick. Taking a guy with a rod in his wrist with the 62nd overall pick, in Wheatley, also badly backfired.  I'm also concerned about him disregarding his own scouts in using the 91st overall pick this year on Duron Harmon...who most likely could have been had as an undrafted free agent.  




     
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    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to DanishPastry's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Look, I'm not saying you are wrong, TP, but any fair analysis should be comparative to other teams during that period. It is just too easy to evaluate some of the picks against what could have been. Would Clay Mathews have succes here? Would Oher? Who knows, though I would take Vollmer over Oher 7 days a week - and twice on sundays.

    RESPONSE: You're missing the point. I'm not criticizing BB for those trades he made, in 2009. I'm criticizing the selections he made with those picks...Butler at #41, and at at #83. As I stated above, it must be pointed out that one of those 3rd rounders he got from Green Bay in the Matthews deal was spun to select TE Rob Gronkowski, in 2010.

    Sure, there have been misses during the period, but what teams don't miss from time to time.

    RESPONSE: I could care less about what other teams do. I care about the Pats...and that's just too many misses...and too many lost opportunities. I'm not the only one saying this. Mike Reiss has suggested that BB hire a draft consultant, because of his many misses.

    Futhermore, I think it is somewhat biased to take a sample of years of BB drafting as evidence that he is a poor drafter. I think the 2010-2012 drafts have been great, though of course we could question the Hernandez pick.

    RESPONSE: Actually, I don't question the AH pick. It was one of BB's better choices. Who knew that he would end up being a murderer? BB never fixed his defense through the drafts, from 2006-present. The keys to this season are how much Jones and Hightower improve. Both must become impact players for the Pats to have a legitimate shot at a title in 2013.

    But in the end, I don't really care if he drafts well or not. Through more than 10 years the Patriots have been contenders on a fairly consistent basis. That doesn't happen if you only have a great coach and QB. You need other players as well. Come from the draft, UDFAs or free agents doesn't matter in itself.

    RESPONSE: The old Homer refrain.

    They are going to be contenders again this year. When the post-season arrives it is all about injuries. If Gronk is healthy in SB46 we win, and if Talib stays on the field in the latest AFCCG we are a h*ll of a lot closer than we ended being.

    RESPONSE: Here,  I tend to agree.

    My point is, the glass is (more than) half full, not half empty.

    RESPONSE: Who is being negative? I'm merely stating facts. Why is it that BB can never be criticized? I have acknowled that I consider him to be the greatest coach of all-time, and have praised him for his trades. My sole criticism is who he is selecting with his draft picks. I merely maintain that his failings in this area are a major reason why the Patriots have had a terrible pass defense over the past several years...and that it has cost them championships.  

     /QUOTE]


     
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    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

         A couple of weeks ago, I got into it with several Homers over my criticisms of BB's drafts, from 2006-present. I was, and have been, referred to as a troll over these criticisms. Here is my response:

         For over the past 10 years, I have been a regular poster on this forum. I got drawn in primarily due to the Patriots' rivalry with the hated Bill Polian/Peyton Manning Colts. During my first few years, I championed Tom Brady over Peyton Manning, and the Patriot Way over the conniving Polian and the preaching of "the Pius One", Tony Dungy. Being in full "In Bill We Trust" mode as I was (yes...I too at one time was a Homer!)...I rarely questioned anything he did. I supported him in both his personnel, and his coaching moves. After all, what was there not to like? The Patriots won back to back titles in 2003-04, and had regularly humiliated the hated Horseface in head to head match-ups. 

         In 2007, I supported and vigorously defended BB during the "spygate" BS...as I still do to this day. But, then came the drafts from 2006-2009. Still in the "In Bill We Trust" mode, I supported his draft selections, and touted his personnel moves. After all, he's BB!! He MUST know what's right!

         But...after the team got blown out at home by the Ravens, 33-14, in the 2009 play-offs, got embarrassed by the Mark Sanchez led Jets in the 2010 play-offs, and lost a second SB to the NY Giants in 2011, I began asking questions...why?

         The main reasons for the above losses appeared to be a flawed defense, with the main culprits being a tepid pass rush, and a weak secondary. When I looked for answers as to why the Pats' pass defense had deteriorated to one of the worst in the game...I began examining BB's past drafts.

         The Pats had lost the lynchpins of their pass defense, CB Ty Law and SS Rodney Harrison, to old age. They lost CB Asante Samuel to free agency, and their best pass rushers, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and Richard Seymour, to old age. Yet, BB had gotten no help through the draft since 2006 to rectify the situation.

         In 2006, BB used his 21st overall pick on RB Laurence Maroney, his 36th overall pick (acquired by trading his 52nd and 75th overall picks), on WR Chad Jackson, their 86th overall pick on TE David Thomas, their 106th pick on TE Garrett Mills, their 118th pick on PK Stephen Gostkowski, and their 136th overall pick on OT Ryan O"Callaghan.

         In 2007, BB used his 24th overall pick on FS Brandon Meriweather, his 127th pick on DT Kareem Brown, and the remaining low rounders on nobodies.

         In 2008, BB used his 10th overall pick on LB Jerod Mayo, his 62nd pick on CB Terrence Wheatley, his 78th overall pick on LB Shawn Crable, his 94th overall pick on QB Kevin O'Connell, 129th pick on CB Jonathan Wilhite, 153rd pick on WR Matt Slater, and 197th pick on LB Bo Ruud.

         In 2009, BB traded down, trading their 23rd overall pick to Baltimore (who used it to acquire their starting RT, Michael Oher), for the Ravens' 26th and 162nd overall picks. BB then traded those two picks to Green Bay (Packers used the 26th overall pick to land DE/OLB Clay Matthews), in exchange for the 41st, 73rd, and 83rd overall picks. BB also had the 34th overall pick, which he obtained in the Matt Cassell trade with Kansas City. With the 34th overall pick, he selected SS Patrick Chung. He then traded used his 47th, 124th and 199th picks to Oakland for the 40th overall selection, which he used to draft DT Ron Brace. The 41st overall pick was used to select CB Darius Butler. The 58th selection was used on OT Sebastien Vollmer, the 83rd on WR Brandon Tate, the 97th on Tyrone McKenzie, the 123rd on OG Rich Ohrnberger, and with his remaining 5 late round selections landed no one of consequence, other than WR Julian Edelman.

         In 2010, BB landed FS Devin McCourty at #27, TE Gronk at #42, the soon to be released OLB/DE Jermaine Cunningham at #53, ILB Brandon Spikes at #62, the worthless WR, Taylor Price at #90, TE Aaron Hernandez at #113, and punter Zoltan Mesko, at #153. No one of significance was drafted with the five remaining late round picks...unless you want to count the recently released Brandon Deaderick.

         In 2011, BB scored with LT Nate Solder, flopped with the injury prone Ras-I Dowling at pick #33, and did well with RBs Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley (56th and 73rd overall picks). The jury is still out on QB Ryan Mallett at #74, and OG Marcus Cannon , at #138. The final three late round picks were no one of consequence.

         Going into the 2012 draft, I had lost my Homerism, and became more objective. Other than McCourty, Spikes, Mayo, and, to some degree, Meriweather, it was evident that BB had added nothing to his "D" through the draft, from 2006-11!

         It was at this point that I began reading everything and anything that I could get my hands on to try to figure out why BB had whiffed so often. He had left behind a grave yard of misses with high picks, from 2006-11. He got very little from the 21st, 36th, 86th, and 106th picks in 2006, the 24th and 127th overall picks in 2007, the 62nd, 78th, and 94th picks in 2008, the 34th, 40th, 41st, 83rd, and 97th picks in 2009, the 53rd and 90th picks in 2010, and the 33rd overall pick in 2011.

         During the 2012 draft, I was elated on Day One when BB significantly addressed his defense, by trading up to select DE Chandler Jones at #21, and LB Dont'a Hightower at #25. But then...he reverted to his wasteful ways by inexplicably using his 48th overall pick on DB Tavon Wilson! BB then wasted the 90th overall pick on DE Jake Bequette. He somewhat made up for the awful Wilson pick by selecting the legally troubled CB Alfonzo Dennard in the 7th round.

         The refrain from the Homers has been, "we won more games than any other team over the years you're talking about, been to two SBs"...yada yada yada. All true...but I see the Pats' success since 2006 as a tribute to the greatness of Tom Brady, and of BB, the coach. Had BB drafted better, the Patriots would have won several more championships, and would be discussed with the same reverence as the Packers of the 60s, the Steelers of the 70s, and the 49ers of the 80s.

         So...that's it. I guess this makes me a troll, right...you Homers and haters?                 

                 




    Excellent response but I think it's more fun to be a homer since I've been a Patriots fan since the late 60s. One thing you forgot to mention is that they did trade away picks both for Welker and Moss. You have to look at the full picture of how they put the product on the field not just the draft. It helps if you do a good job drafting which helps in keeping the team under the salary cap but there are times when you are picking at the end of each round because you did have a pretty good record the year before and sometimes the talent just isn't there for what your needs are and the direction you want the team to be headed in.

    But I agree the defense had a lot of misses both through the draft and through free agency during that time spand. But it is also obvious BB has been working hard to rebuild it with the Talib trade, all the linebackers drafted, signing of Kelly, Wilson, and hopefully Amstead. This could be the year we see this defense get to the next level. Only time will tell.

     
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    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to GO47's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

         A couple of weeks ago, I got into it with several Homers over my criticisms of BB's drafts, from 2006-present. I was, and have been, referred to as a troll over these criticisms. Here is my response:

         For over the past 10 years, I have been a regular poster on this forum. I got drawn in primarily due to the Patriots' rivalry with the hated Bill Polian/Peyton Manning Colts. During my first few years, I championed Tom Brady over Peyton Manning, and the Patriot Way over the conniving Polian and the preaching of "the Pius One", Tony Dungy. Being in full "In Bill We Trust" mode as I was (yes...I too at one time was a Homer!)...I rarely questioned anything he did. I supported him in both his personnel, and his coaching moves. After all, what was there not to like? The Patriots won back to back titles in 2003-04, and had regularly humiliated the hated Horseface in head to head match-ups. 

         In 2007, I supported and vigorously defended BB during the "spygate" BS...as I still do to this day. But, then came the drafts from 2006-2009. Still in the "In Bill We Trust" mode, I supported his draft selections, and touted his personnel moves. After all, he's BB!! He MUST know what's right!

         But...after the team got blown out at home by the Ravens, 33-14, in the 2009 play-offs, got embarrassed by the Mark Sanchez led Jets in the 2010 play-offs, and lost a second SB to the NY Giants in 2011, I began asking questions...why?

         The main reasons for the above losses appeared to be a flawed defense, with the main culprits being a tepid pass rush, and a weak secondary. When I looked for answers as to why the Pats' pass defense had deteriorated to one of the worst in the game...I began examining BB's past drafts.

         The Pats had lost the lynchpins of their pass defense, CB Ty Law and SS Rodney Harrison, to old age. They lost CB Asante Samuel to free agency, and their best pass rushers, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and Richard Seymour, to old age. Yet, BB had gotten no help through the draft since 2006 to rectify the situation.

         In 2006, BB used his 21st overall pick on RB Laurence Maroney, his 36th overall pick (acquired by trading his 52nd and 75th overall picks), on WR Chad Jackson, their 86th overall pick on TE David Thomas, their 106th pick on TE Garrett Mills, their 118th pick on PK Stephen Gostkowski, and their 136th overall pick on OT Ryan O"Callaghan.

         In 2007, BB used his 24th overall pick on FS Brandon Meriweather, his 127th pick on DT Kareem Brown, and the remaining low rounders on nobodies.

         In 2008, BB used his 10th overall pick on LB Jerod Mayo, his 62nd pick on CB Terrence Wheatley, his 78th overall pick on LB Shawn Crable, his 94th overall pick on QB Kevin O'Connell, 129th pick on CB Jonathan Wilhite, 153rd pick on WR Matt Slater, and 197th pick on LB Bo Ruud.

         In 2009, BB traded down, trading their 23rd overall pick to Baltimore (who used it to acquire their starting RT, Michael Oher), for the Ravens' 26th and 162nd overall picks. BB then traded those two picks to Green Bay (Packers used the 26th overall pick to land DE/OLB Clay Matthews), in exchange for the 41st, 73rd, and 83rd overall picks. BB also had the 34th overall pick, which he obtained in the Matt Cassell trade with Kansas City. With the 34th overall pick, he selected SS Patrick Chung. He then traded used his 47th, 124th and 199th picks to Oakland for the 40th overall selection, which he used to draft DT Ron Brace. The 41st overall pick was used to select CB Darius Butler. The 58th selection was used on OT Sebastien Vollmer, the 83rd on WR Brandon Tate, the 97th on Tyrone McKenzie, the 123rd on OG Rich Ohrnberger, and with his remaining 5 late round selections landed no one of consequence, other than WR Julian Edelman.

         In 2010, BB landed FS Devin McCourty at #27, TE Gronk at #42, the soon to be released OLB/DE Jermaine Cunningham at #53, ILB Brandon Spikes at #62, the worthless WR, Taylor Price at #90, TE Aaron Hernandez at #113, and punter Zoltan Mesko, at #153. No one of significance was drafted with the five remaining late round picks...unless you want to count the recently released Brandon Deaderick.

         In 2011, BB scored with LT Nate Solder, flopped with the injury prone Ras-I Dowling at pick #33, and did well with RBs Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley (56th and 73rd overall picks). The jury is still out on QB Ryan Mallett at #74, and OG Marcus Cannon , at #138. The final three late round picks were no one of consequence.

         Going into the 2012 draft, I had lost my Homerism, and became more objective. Other than McCourty, Spikes, Mayo, and, to some degree, Meriweather, it was evident that BB had added nothing to his "D" through the draft, from 2006-11!

         It was at this point that I began reading everything and anything that I could get my hands on to try to figure out why BB had whiffed so often. He had left behind a grave yard of misses with high picks, from 2006-11. He got very little from the 21st, 36th, 86th, and 106th picks in 2006, the 24th and 127th overall picks in 2007, the 62nd, 78th, and 94th picks in 2008, the 34th, 40th, 41st, 83rd, and 97th picks in 2009, the 53rd and 90th picks in 2010, and the 33rd overall pick in 2011.

         During the 2012 draft, I was elated on Day One when BB significantly addressed his defense, by trading up to select DE Chandler Jones at #21, and LB Dont'a Hightower at #25. But then...he reverted to his wasteful ways by inexplicably using his 48th overall pick on DB Tavon Wilson! BB then wasted the 90th overall pick on DE Jake Bequette. He somewhat made up for the awful Wilson pick by selecting the legally troubled CB Alfonzo Dennard in the 7th round.

         The refrain from the Homers has been, "we won more games than any other team over the years you're talking about, been to two SBs"...yada yada yada. All true...but I see the Pats' success since 2006 as a tribute to the greatness of Tom Brady, and of BB, the coach. Had BB drafted better, the Patriots would have won several more championships, and would be discussed with the same reverence as the Packers of the 60s, the Steelers of the 70s, and the 49ers of the 80s.

         So...that's it. I guess this makes me a troll, right...you Homers and haters?                 

                 

     




    Excellent response but I think it's more fun to be a homer since I've been a Patriots fan since the late 60s. One thing you forgot to mention is that they did trade away picks both for Welker and Moss.

    RESPONSE: I was focusing on the defense, and who BB actually selected with the picks he made, in my original post. In a later post above, I did mention those trades, and credited BB for it. I have no problems with his trades. It's the players he actually selects in the draft that I have criticized him over.

    You have to look at the full picture of how they put the product on the field not just the draft. It helps if you do a good job drafting which helps in keeping the team under the salary cap but there are times when you are picking at the end of each round because you did have a pretty good record the year before and sometimes the talent just isn't there for what your needs are and the direction you want the team to be headed in.

    RESPONSE: The draft is a part of the full picture...and is the area of concern. BB is such a great coach and Brady is such a great QB that, even with all the draft misses, the Pats are still going to win 10-13 games a season. But, their overall lack of talent, particularly on the defensive side of the ball, becomes apparent in the play-offs.

    But I agree the defense had a lot of misses both through the draft and through free agency during that time spand. But it is also obvious BB has been working hard to rebuild it with the Talib trade, all the linebackers drafted, signing of Kelly, Wilson, and hopefully Amstead. This could be the year we see this defense get to the next level. Only time will tell.

    RESPONSE: No doubt. It's too bad he's has so many misses in the draft.

    [/QUOTE]


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from krismk. Show krismk's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to GO47's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

         A couple of weeks ago, I got into it with several Homers over my criticisms of BB's drafts, from 2006-present. I was, and have been, referred to as a troll over these criticisms. Here is my response:

         For over the past 10 years, I have been a regular poster on this forum. I got drawn in primarily due to the Patriots' rivalry with the hated Bill Polian/Peyton Manning Colts. During my first few years, I championed Tom Brady over Peyton Manning, and the Patriot Way over the conniving Polian and the preaching of "the Pius One", Tony Dungy. Being in full "In Bill We Trust" mode as I was (yes...I too at one time was a Homer!)...I rarely questioned anything he did. I supported him in both his personnel, and his coaching moves. After all, what was there not to like? The Patriots won back to back titles in 2003-04, and had regularly humiliated the hated Horseface in head to head match-ups. 

         In 2007, I supported and vigorously defended BB during the "spygate" BS...as I still do to this day. But, then came the drafts from 2006-2009. Still in the "In Bill We Trust" mode, I supported his draft selections, and touted his personnel moves. After all, he's BB!! He MUST know what's right!

         But...after the team got blown out at home by the Ravens, 33-14, in the 2009 play-offs, got embarrassed by the Mark Sanchez led Jets in the 2010 play-offs, and lost a second SB to the NY Giants in 2011, I began asking questions...why?

         The main reasons for the above losses appeared to be a flawed defense, with the main culprits being a tepid pass rush, and a weak secondary. When I looked for answers as to why the Pats' pass defense had deteriorated to one of the worst in the game...I began examining BB's past drafts.

         The Pats had lost the lynchpins of their pass defense, CB Ty Law and SS Rodney Harrison, to old age. They lost CB Asante Samuel to free agency, and their best pass rushers, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, and Richard Seymour, to old age. Yet, BB had gotten no help through the draft since 2006 to rectify the situation.

         In 2006, BB used his 21st overall pick on RB Laurence Maroney, his 36th overall pick (acquired by trading his 52nd and 75th overall picks), on WR Chad Jackson, their 86th overall pick on TE David Thomas, their 106th pick on TE Garrett Mills, their 118th pick on PK Stephen Gostkowski, and their 136th overall pick on OT Ryan O"Callaghan.

         In 2007, BB used his 24th overall pick on FS Brandon Meriweather, his 127th pick on DT Kareem Brown, and the remaining low rounders on nobodies.

         In 2008, BB used his 10th overall pick on LB Jerod Mayo, his 62nd pick on CB Terrence Wheatley, his 78th overall pick on LB Shawn Crable, his 94th overall pick on QB Kevin O'Connell, 129th pick on CB Jonathan Wilhite, 153rd pick on WR Matt Slater, and 197th pick on LB Bo Ruud.

         In 2009, BB traded down, trading their 23rd overall pick to Baltimore (who used it to acquire their starting RT, Michael Oher), for the Ravens' 26th and 162nd overall picks. BB then traded those two picks to Green Bay (Packers used the 26th overall pick to land DE/OLB Clay Matthews), in exchange for the 41st, 73rd, and 83rd overall picks. BB also had the 34th overall pick, which he obtained in the Matt Cassell trade with Kansas City. With the 34th overall pick, he selected SS Patrick Chung. He then traded used his 47th, 124th and 199th picks to Oakland for the 40th overall selection, which he used to draft DT Ron Brace. The 41st overall pick was used to select CB Darius Butler. The 58th selection was used on OT Sebastien Vollmer, the 83rd on WR Brandon Tate, the 97th on Tyrone McKenzie, the 123rd on OG Rich Ohrnberger, and with his remaining 5 late round selections landed no one of consequence, other than WR Julian Edelman.

         In 2010, BB landed FS Devin McCourty at #27, TE Gronk at #42, the soon to be released OLB/DE Jermaine Cunningham at #53, ILB Brandon Spikes at #62, the worthless WR, Taylor Price at #90, TE Aaron Hernandez at #113, and punter Zoltan Mesko, at #153. No one of significance was drafted with the five remaining late round picks...unless you want to count the recently released Brandon Deaderick.

         In 2011, BB scored with LT Nate Solder, flopped with the injury prone Ras-I Dowling at pick #33, and did well with RBs Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley (56th and 73rd overall picks). The jury is still out on QB Ryan Mallett at #74, and OG Marcus Cannon , at #138. The final three late round picks were no one of consequence.

         Going into the 2012 draft, I had lost my Homerism, and became more objective. Other than McCourty, Spikes, Mayo, and, to some degree, Meriweather, it was evident that BB had added nothing to his "D" through the draft, from 2006-11!

         It was at this point that I began reading everything and anything that I could get my hands on to try to figure out why BB had whiffed so often. He had left behind a grave yard of misses with high picks, from 2006-11. He got very little from the 21st, 36th, 86th, and 106th picks in 2006, the 24th and 127th overall picks in 2007, the 62nd, 78th, and 94th picks in 2008, the 34th, 40th, 41st, 83rd, and 97th picks in 2009, the 53rd and 90th picks in 2010, and the 33rd overall pick in 2011.

         During the 2012 draft, I was elated on Day One when BB significantly addressed his defense, by trading up to select DE Chandler Jones at #21, and LB Dont'a Hightower at #25. But then...he reverted to his wasteful ways by inexplicably using his 48th overall pick on DB Tavon Wilson! BB then wasted the 90th overall pick on DE Jake Bequette. He somewhat made up for the awful Wilson pick by selecting the legally troubled CB Alfonzo Dennard in the 7th round.

         The refrain from the Homers has been, "we won more games than any other team over the years you're talking about, been to two SBs"...yada yada yada. All true...but I see the Pats' success since 2006 as a tribute to the greatness of Tom Brady, and of BB, the coach. Had BB drafted better, the Patriots would have won several more championships, and would be discussed with the same reverence as the Packers of the 60s, the Steelers of the 70s, and the 49ers of the 80s.

         So...that's it. I guess this makes me a troll, right...you Homers and haters?                 

                 

     




    Excellent response but I think it's more fun to be a homer since I've been a Patriots fan since the late 60s. One thing you forgot to mention is that they did trade away picks both for Welker and Moss. You have to look at the full picture of how they put the product on the field not just the draft. It helps if you do a good job drafting which helps in keeping the team under the salary cap but there are times when you are picking at the end of each round because you did have a pretty good record the year before and sometimes the talent just isn't there for what your needs are and the direction you want the team to be headed in.

     

    But I agree the defense had a lot of misses both through the draft and through free agency during that time spand. But it is also obvious BB has been working hard to rebuild it with the Talib trade, all the linebackers drafted, signing of Kelly, Wilson, and hopefully Amstead. This could be the year we see this defense get to the next level. Only time will tell.

    [/QUOTE]


    True on the D free agents.. Just the LBs come to mind...Adalius Thomas, and the unfortunate multi-injuries to Rosie Colvin, who I liked.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from GO47. Show GO47's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    I know this is just one years sample, 2010, that Pete Prisco did but it's interesting to see how he had graded the drafts and then 3 years later regraded them.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/22091999/grading-the-nfl-draft-3-years-later-some-big-hits-and-misses

    I disagree with TexasPat's statement that he doesn't care how other teams do because if the other teams do terrible picking the right players it increases the Patriots changes in selecting someone who will help the team. I also agree with TexasPat that the Patriots have had their share of misses especially on defense.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    Anything short of dominance is unacceptable!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    Texas pat, I think you bring up some good points, I too went through a phase where I thought everything he did was right (and that was wrong in of itself). Then I started to question some things...then I really started questioning things (which was wrong too).

    I think it boils down to someplace in the middle. I think he makes some good moves and I think he makes some bad ones, just like everybody else. The difference is he has the best coach (himself) and the best quarterback (Brady) to keep things headed in the right direction. People point out where he is drafting and ask, "what do you expect?". I can flip that around and say...well we have had more draft selections than anyone over the last five years...there was resources to move up, or down.

    I do like the selection of Solder (left tackles don't grow on trees and are very valuable). We have done well with undrafted free agents...BJGE (average/servicable), Thompkins (looks like a steal), Francis (servicable), Sudfeld (honestly looks like a first rounder too me). I thought the selection of Spikes was dumb at the time - it looks pretty darn good now. I'm not a huge fan of Mayo...and I'm going to wait until I see more of McCourty at safety before I go putting him into the hall of fame (like some want to do). Dennard is a player...real good player.

    The misses have been just too many...Butler, Chung, Brace, Cunningham, Wheatly, Dowling, T. Wilson, Maroney, Merriweather, Price, Jackson, Bequette. Those were guys picked relatively high - that's NOT how you build a roster, that's how you drag one down. The free agent signings have been even worse...Fred Taylor, Bodden, Springs, Haynesworth, Holt, Galloway, Gallery, Addai, Gonzalez, Gaffney, Gregory, Fanene, Ocho Cinco, Shaun Ellis...I could go on. Those names aren't just little blurps in the salary cap either - there's probably 100 million in contracts there. Any other GM would of been fired for that. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    Texas Pat is simply a tough grader.  Perhaps he's a math teacher in real life.  Some of those profs don't mess around a bit if the whole class flunks the test. 

    I look at a team that cranks out division championships like m&ms (apologies to Tom Brady's Unreal candy) and I'm forced to give out a lot of A and B grades.  If you want to see oodles of Ds and Fs, try Oakland or somebody.

    2013 third rounders Harmon and Ryan are at least on the team.  They're getting playing time this preseason as if they will be starting in November, maybe.  No, the two of them aren't good right now.  That's not a bust, not for a third rounder defensive back.  Most defensive backs have a long learning curve in the NFL.  Exception:  Devin McCourty.

     In other news, I'd be outraged if BB or anyone took Sudfeld in the first round.  The guy had a bum shoulder and he was always injured.  Nobody should ever draft a guy with a bum shoulder in the first round.  For Suds as a UFA, the price was great!  The same goes for KT.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

    Texas Pat is simply a tough grader.  Perhaps he's a math teacher in real life.  Some of those profs don't mess around a bit if the whole class flunks the test. 

    I look at a team that cranks out division championships like m&ms and I'm forced to give out a lot of A and B grades.  If you want to see oodles of Ds and Fs, try Oakland or somebody.

    2013 third rounders Harmon and Ryan are at least on the team.  They're getting playing time this preseason as if they will be starting in November, maybe.  No, the two of them aren't good right now.  That's not a bust, not for a third rounder defensive back.  Most defensive backs have a long learning curve in the NFL.  Exception:  Devin McCourty.



         I wish that Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatley, Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung, Ras-I Dowling, and Tavon Wilson had forced me to give them "A"s. 

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

     I wish that Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatley, Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung, Ras-I Dowling, and Tavon Wilson had forced me to give them "A"s.


    BB has an entire philosophy about defensive backfields, as I see it:

    First, a tremendous defensive backfield is less relevant to his team winning games than any other position on the team.  Great defensive backfield guys are overpriced in the NFL.  JAG defensive backfield guys at a bargain price are BB's goal.  Exception:  Aqib Talib was worth a slight premium.

    Second, a young defensive backfield that can run is pretty important.  If they're young, they recover from injuries, and boy do they get injured!

    Third, the defense's purpose is to bend and not break.  In the fourth quarter when the Pats are ahead by 21 points, the defense's only purpose is to prevent long bombs.   When the offense starts at their own 20, the defense's job is to get a few interceptions but not give up any bombs, not until the offense crosses the 50 yard line and approaches field goal range.  The defense is very conscious of giving up points but not so yard-conscious.

    So, BB has been drafting non-first rounders or end-of-first rounders for a long time.  They all sort of work for a couple of years.  They get injured a lot.  During this time the team keeps winning somehow.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to Paul_K's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Texas Pat is simply a tough grader.  Perhaps he's a math teacher in real life.  Some of those profs don't mess around a bit if the whole class flunks the test. 

    I look at a team that cranks out division championships like m&ms and I'm forced to give out a lot of A and B grades.  If you want to see oodles of Ds and Fs, try Oakland or somebody.

    2013 third rounders Harmon and Ryan are at least on the team.  They're getting playing time this preseason as if they will be starting in November, maybe.  No, the two of them aren't good right now.  That's not a bust, not for a third rounder defensive back.  Most defensive backs have a long learning curve in the NFL.  Exception:  Devin McCourty.

     



         I wish that Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatley, Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung, Ras-I Dowling, and Tavon Wilson had forced me to give them "A"s. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    On this we can whole heartedly agree...these picks SUCKED...no bout adoubtit..

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     I wish that Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatley, Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung, Ras-I Dowling, and Tavon Wilson had forced me to give them "A"s. 

     



    BB has an entire philosophy about defensive backfields, as I see it:

     

    First, a tremendous defensive backfield is less relevant to his team winning games than any other position on the team.  Great defensive backfield guys are overpriced in the NFL.  JAG defensive backfield guys at a bargain price are BB's goal.  Exception:  Aqib Talib was worth a slight premium.

    RESPONSE: This is true, Paul...but only if the Pats can generate a consistent pass rush. TBut, tey have not been able to do so for the majority of the past 5 years. As a result, the Pats' average at best secondary has gotten exposed.

    Second, a young defensive backfield that can run is pretty important.  If they're young, they recover from injuries, and boy do they get injured!

    RESPONSE: Their best CB, Talib, is not really young. He's a 6 year veteran. Even though Ras-I Dowling has been hurt yet again, it wouldn't surprise me to see BB keep him on the active roster. In the very few times that he's been able to play, he's shown ability...and has the size that is needed to defend against the bigger, more physical WRs. The guy is the ultimate tease. If only he could learn to get out of bed without pulling a hammy or a quad.

    Third, the defense's purpose is to bend and not break.  In the fourth quarter when the Pats are ahead by 21 points, the defense's only purpose is to prevent long bombs. 

    RESPONSE: Wrong! The defense's purpose is to be disruptive, and create turnovers. This "bend but don't break" stuff does not win championships.

    So, BB has been drafting non-first rounders or end-of-first rounders for a long time.  They all sort of work for a couple of years.  They get injured a lot.  During this time the team keeps winning somehow.

    [/QUOTE]

    RESPONSE: Wheatley has worked? Butler has worked? Chung has worked? Ras-I has worked? We wish. Sure...the team keeps winning, except in the play-offs. There are two primary reasons why the Pats', despite all the poor drafts, keep winning. Tom Brady, and BB, the coach. 

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

    tp 

    great post. I am more in line with the others but healthy criticsm based on facts are A ok

     

    spygate was stupid, and we lost another  no1 pick. BB has fanned on some picks, just like everyone . look at  that 2010 draft review.

     

    Bb has turned over the entire team.Except   tB and VW. We are in the hunt. It's a challenge to grt to the top and we are on a journey. I just root for the guys who are having  a go of it.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats-bilbo. Show Pats-bilbo's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    TexasPat... I've been reading your posts for years and have enjoyed them even if I disagree. That is what a forum is suppose to be... a group of passionate fans sharing their views and insights into the game. Noone from the forum is going to leave here and coach a NFL team. None of us truly know the job nor the day to day decisions that BB or other coaches/GM's face. But as fans we can have an opinion of what has happened or project what might happen.

    What I am most tired of, there are a few people probably about 10 people in total that constantly hijack the threads and get into petty name calling and finger pointing like a grade school playground. Not one of those posters is 100% right all the time and if you don't like a thread or opinion, move on to the next thread. The constant thread grabing name calling responses with all the previous dialogue included is making this forum less enjoyable and a lot less value.

    For those 10 or so people that need to prove they are right and the other posters are wrong, ie trolls, homers or other stupid names. Why not just start a thread that says: Follow me because I am great and you don't need anyone else's opinion.... then do all the bashing name calling and stupidity in that thread... then I and others who want to listen to and share thoughts on the team can simply ignore that thread and enjoy the rest.

    This is unrealistic I know but I see good discussions get brought down by the 10-15 thread post by the same BS all the time, and it makes the whole thread unreadable and not useful. So to the 10 or so of you that want to constantly name call and praise themselves, please stop and post the knowledge/opinion you have without all the BS. You really make yourself look more stupid with such BS. 

    Enjoy a team that is one of the elite and be happy that they have a vision, mission and do try to help the community. There is a lot more good from the patriots in the community than the bad and all the success they have has not lead them to the point of not remembering this.

    Have an opinion, share it passionately just respect the others on the site and treat them they way you want to be treated, why should they treat you well when you sh1t all over them?


    --- " I am a happy fan, a proud fan and I want us to win every game 28-0 but as long as we win, the team is united and has a sense of respect to the community and the game I will be a patriots fan and damn proud of it." ---- signed a pats fan from middle earth

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from darwk. Show darwk's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    Texas Pat: I know Trolls, and you sir are no Troll. You "bring it"- facts, thoughtful opnion, and entertaining well written post game grade commentary that livens up these threads. The "pie fights" that go on with some of the frequent posters here are really not fan discussion. I appreciate the many points of views shared by many here.

    BB undoubtedly has one of the best of the best NFL/football IQ the sport has seen. Do I agree with all of his decisions and or picks? Nope. He has whiffed on a few. Your draft pick retrospective gives food for thought. I'm sure the wizards at Gillette have seen the writing on the wall as well, How the Master Wizard works his magic with this year's draft class remain to be seen. 

    BTW- It's a good thing Gillette is not a dome- the roof would literally be blown off when Manning and Broncos gallop into the stadium. I'm hoping for an early blizzard at game time.

    GO PATS!

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from darwk. Show darwk's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

     

    Well said. If only...

     

    In response to Pats-bilbo's comment:

    TexasPat... I've been reading your posts for years and have enjoyed them even if I disagree. That is what a forum is suppose to be... a group of passionate fans sharing their views and insights into the game. Noone from the forum is going to leave here and coach a NFL team. None of us truly know the job nor the day to day decisions that BB or other coaches/GM's face. But as fans we can have an opinion of what has happened or project what might happen.

    What I am most tired of, there are a few people probably about 10 people in total that constantly hijack the threads and get into petty name calling and finger pointing like a grade school playground. Not one of those posters is 100% right all the time and if you don't like a thread or opinion, move on to the next thread. The constant thread grabing name calling responses with all the previous dialogue included is making this forum less enjoyable and a lot less value.

    For those 10 or so people that need to prove they are right and the other posters are wrong, ie trolls, homers or other stupid names. Why not just start a thread that says: Follow me because I am great and you don't need anyone else's opinion.... then do all the bashing name calling and stupidity in that thread... then I and others who want to listen to and share thoughts on the team can simply ignore that thread and enjoy the rest.

    This is unrealistic I know but I see good discussions get brought down by the 10-15 thread post by the same BS all the time, and it makes the whole thread unreadable and not useful. So to the 10 or so of you that want to constantly name call and praise themselves, please stop and post the knowledge/opinion you have without all the BS. You really make yourself look more stupid with such BS. 

    Enjoy a team that is one of the elite and be happy that they have a vision, mission and do try to help the community. There is a lot more good from the patriots in the community than the bad and all the success they have has not lead them to the point of not remembering this.

    Have an opinion, share it passionately just respect the others on the site and treat them they way you want to be treated, why should they treat you well when you sh1t all over them?


    --- " I am a happy fan, a proud fan and I want us to win every game 28-0 but as long as we win, the team is united and has a sense of respect to the community and the game I will be a patriots fan and damn proud of it." ---- signed a pats fan from middle earth




     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Homers and Haters

    Good post, TP.  You make very good points.  Don't always agree with you on everything you do here but I agree on your original post.  There are a lot of questions that need answers concerning BB's drafting.  I think that is the biggest fault of him being both the coach and GM.  He doesn't have anyone to answer to or who will question his draft moves other then Kraft of course. 

    Oh, I like your wrrite ups after games, hope you continue to do those again this season.

    What are your thoughts on having the Fantasy Football thread pinned to the top of the forum this year, just not in that bright red?

     

     

    ---------------------------------------------

    "Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anybody else."  Text received by Tom Brady from Kurt Warner after Ravens loss.


    view my Patriots photoshops at patsfanfotoshop.tumblr.com





     
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