How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Leonard15. Show Leonard15's posts

    How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    Since the talk about bringing a vertical WR has been going on for years I am just curious to know why the Pats were able to win 3 SB's without one on the roster but can no longer do it anymore hell they even had one in 2007 but still couldn't win the SB with Randy Moss!


    So is that a knock on the defense for not being up to 01/03/04 standards which covered up the stench for not having a vertical WR or did we win 3 SB's without a vertical WR being the exception to the norm.

    I think there is more to it than having a vertical WR as many teams have won SB's without one and done so with a high powered passing attack minus a vertical WR.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    It's the defense. I've been saying this for a while.

    Look at the 49ers and tell me who their skill positions are. Davis, Gore and Crabtree are the only above average ones left.

    Pats have the weapons to win, it could be better, but they have the weapons to win.

    I will admit that they need to find an upgrade over Branch. The man can't beat single coverage against a teams 4th best cover man.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to Leonard15's comment:

    Since the talk about bringing a vertical WR has been going on for years I am just curious to know why the Pats were able to win 3 SB's without one on the roster but can no longer do it anymore hell they even had one in 2007 but still couldn't win the SB with Randy Moss!


    So is that a knock on the defense for not being up to 01/03/04 standards which covered up the stench for not having a vertical WR or did we win 3 SB's without a vertical WR being the exception to the norm.

    I think there is more to it than having a vertical WR as many teams have won SB's without one and done so with a high powered passing attack minus a vertical WR.




     

    An Intimidating Defense that knocked people out and made Wrs scared to go over the middle. BTW, for all those folks who wanna go this route, Just remember David Patten was a real deep threat. Like it or not, our Wrs WERE better than they are now.

    Troy Brown was better than Wes. More clutch, more explosion.

    David Patten was better than Lloyd. In 2001 he had 12 plays over 20 yards and 2002, he had 13 of these plays. His last year here in 04, he averaged over 18 yards per catch. Most on the team in the last 10 years

    David Givens was better than Branch is now. dont need to say why.

    TE is the only position which is drastically better BUT Wiggy and Rod were limited BUT stayed healthy and made plays in the clutch(Wiggy with passing, Rod with blocking)

    Sorry to say, but these teams just dont match up with the juggernauts we had!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    The defense was the big difference, I think, but the offenses were not as devoid of receiving talent as some seem to think. 

    In the 2004 playoffs, we had receptions from a young Branch, plus Givens, Brown, Patten, and Bethel Johnson at WR, Fauria, Graham, and Vrabel at TE, and Faulk, Dillon, and Pass all catching passes as backs.

    In the 2003 playoffs, we had receptions from Branch, Givens, Brown, Ward, and Johnson at WR, plus Graham, Fauria, and Vrabel at TE, and Faulk, Centers, and Smith as backs.

    2001 was a different story, but that truly was a defensive victory in my opinion. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    Wbile the defenses were better, your premise is off. Patten, Givens and (a young) Branch were all better deep threats than anyone on the current Patriots roster. In 2004, Patten averaged 18.2 yards per reception. Gronk led the team this year at 14.4 yards. 

    The Pats do not need an all-pro WR. They just need some one with enough speed to get behind defensive backs and good enough hands to catch it. It may also help to have a guy over six feet who can go up and get the ball. The current group of WRs: Welker 5'9", Branch 5'9", Edelman 5'10" and Lloyd 6'0". Even Hernandez at 6'1" is smaller than a lot of WRs. Only Gronk has the size to catch a ball over a defender.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    Brady threw TDs not INTS as QB while going 10-0 in playoffs, 14 TD to 3 Ints....Since then hes 7-7 in playoffs with a 28 TD to 19 INTs

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to Leonard15's comment:

    Since the talk about bringing a vertical WR has been going on for years I am just curious to know why the Pats were able to win 3 SB's without one on the roster but can no longer do it anymore hell they even had one in 2007 but still couldn't win the SB with Randy Moss!


    So is that a knock on the defense for not being up to 01/03/04 standards which covered up the stench for not having a vertical WR or did we win 3 SB's without a vertical WR being the exception to the norm.

    I think there is more to it than having a vertical WR as many teams have won SB's without one and done so with a high powered passing attack minus a vertical WR.



    better D- better run game- Adam Vinitieri

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jam757. Show jam757's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    Stallworth gave us one nice 70 yard bomb and got hurt on the play. It's a damn shame because that is exactly what we needed to keep defenses honest with the dink and dunk stuff. All that said, the defenses from the early years were stacked with ELITE players who were the best in the league at their position: Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, Richard Seymour to name a few with Willie McGinnest, Vrabel, Ted Washington, Lawyer Milloy and many, many others.

    Those teams were stacked. This team is only a few players away. A shutdown corner opposite Talib (if we can keep him) and a veteran pro-bowl safety. Also, of course a nice deep threat tall physical WR would be great! Unfortunately we've been saying this for awhile now...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    In response to Leonard15's comment:

     

    Since the talk about bringing a vertical WR has been going on for years I am just curious to know why the Pats were able to win 3 SB's without one on the roster but can no longer do it anymore hell they even had one in 2007 but still couldn't win the SB with Randy Moss!


    So is that a knock on the defense for not being up to 01/03/04 standards which covered up the stench for not having a vertical WR or did we win 3 SB's without a vertical WR being the exception to the norm.

    I think there is more to it than having a vertical WR as many teams have won SB's without one and done so with a high powered passing attack minus a vertical WR.

     




     

     

    An Intimidating Defense that knocked people out and made Wrs scared to go over the middle. BTW, for all those folks who wanna go this route, Just remember David Patten was a real deep threat. Like it or not, our Wrs WERE better than they are now.

    Troy Brown was better than Wes. More clutch, more explosion.

    David Patten was better than Lloyd. In 2001 he had 12 plays over 20 yards and 2002, he had 13 of these plays. His last year here in 04, he averaged over 18 yards per catch. Most on the team in the last 10 years

    David Givens was better than Branch is now. dont need to say why.

    TE is the only position which is drastically better BUT Wiggy and Rod were limited BUT stayed healthy and made plays in the clutch(Wiggy with passing, Rod with blocking)

    Sorry to say, but these teams just dont match up with the juggernauts we had!



    Brown was more clutch than Welker, but he wasn't better. During the '04 playoff run, Troy had 5 catches for 41 yards.

    During that '04 playoff run, Patten had a total of 2 catches for 20 yards.

    David Givens had 12 catches for 104 yards during the '04 playoff run.

    Branch has 16 catches for 261 yards.

    A foursome of Gronk, Hern, Lloyd and Welker was way better than that.

     

    Biggest difference with the offenses was the attitude. '04 was a physical offense led by a bruiser in Dillon. Ridley had a good season, but he really didn't do much against physical defenses.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    But Troy Brown dropped less passes in his career than Welker does in a season...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

    But Troy Brown dropped less passes in his career than Welker does in a season...




    troy brown couldn't carry welker's jock

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TSWFAN. Show TSWFAN's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    THE rules have changed. This is a throw deep, jump ball league based on P.I rules.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

    But Troy Brown dropped less passes in his career than Welker does in a season...



    Well that's not true. He did drop less passes than Welker though. He was also targeted a lot less. If you're strictly talking about the Super Bowl seasons, Troy Brown was nothing more than the #3 Receiver outside of '01.

    Welker was the focal point of this offense. Troy Brown was a role player in '03 and '04. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

     

    But Troy Brown dropped less passes in his career than Welker does in a season...

     




    troy brown couldn't carry welker's jock

     



    Seems to me in SB 36 his catch was the biggest play on the winning drive. Caught the ball over the middle for 30 yards than got out of bounds. Welker had his chance to make the same type of play and dropped the Lombardi....

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    It's funny how all the talk the last couple years is that O's win campionship now not D's and then you get a 49ers Ravens SB and everyone suddenly goes... well maybe the D has something to do with it. If you really look at it GB when they won had a great D in the playoffs, Giants last year had a great D in the playoffs. It's still about the D when it comes down to crunch time. Luckily I don't think we are that far off. A passing rushing threat to put next to Wilfork, Talib healthy all year or a suitable replacement man coverage CB (notice man not zone), and a quicker LB for pass coverage and I think this D has what it takes to make a giant leap forward

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from FLY2K. Show FLY2K's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    The league has changed. Good teams know how to play the Pats. They know Brady will not throw the deep ball because we don't have a deep threat. That's why teams clog the middle of the field. And the Pats defense could stop any team.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    You also need a QB who is not a pick machine....Credit Flacco hes 12 TD and 1 INT his last 2 years in playoffs, which is 4 games.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In the pats winning years 01,03,04, the defense supported the offense by providing 25 turnovers through 9 games.  Since then they've produced 20 over 15 games. 

    Further, in losses, the pats scored 13,17,21,14,14,34,13. 

    Sometimes the offense can't do it alone.  In 2001, the pats D and ST scored 4 TD's.  In 04, they scored 1. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    It's funny how all the talk the last couple years is that O's win campionship now not D's and then you get a 49ers Ravens SB and everyone suddenly goes... well maybe the D has something to do with it. If you really look at it GB when they won had a great D in the playoffs, Giants last year had a great D in the playoffs. It's still about the D when it comes down to crunch time. Luckily I don't think we are that far off. A passing rushing threat to put next to Wilfork, Talib healthy all year or a suitable replacement man coverage CB (notice man not zone), and a quicker LB for pass coverage and I think this D has what it takes to make a giant leap forward



    I don't think people have been saying O's win championships the last couple of years. It's all about balance...but I would prefer a dominant D over a dominant offense.

    Look at the weapons of Kaepernick and Russel Wilson. Great defense and a good QB. Yeah, I know SEA was eliminated in the divisional round, but I really like the way that team is built. Nobody goes against the Seahawks saying they'll physically dominate them. And judging by Wilson's play, it looks like he has the ability to compete in shootouts with some very mediocre WRs.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

    You also need a QB who is not a pick machine....Credit Flacco hes 12 TD and 1 INT his last 2 years in playoffs, which is 4 games.




    Listen Troll! If you are not gonna paint the whole picture than you are just gonna look dumb! Is Flacco now the best in the Biz! lol. What a joke you have become. Its a shame you dont jackshhhhh about the game. Brady had a great defense from 01-03 and THATS why his numbers look good because he never had to force a throw. With those defenses he was only asked to MANAGE THE GAME! Its hard to throw pics when most your throws are WR screens and playaction. The guy NEVER lined up in shotgun on 1st down and aired it out. Flacco throughout his WHOLE career has benefited from the same type of Defense Brady had in the wonder years and its even better which allows his Offensive coordinator to call the simplest of gameplans. Run on 1st, Run on 2nd, and thrown on 3rd when its 3rd and 4! ITS EASY!!!  You have to have a defense with you Moron, now go root for the Ravens in the SB YOu ignorant D*ck Rider!!!

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    IMHO, they are still trying to defend the way that won the SBs for NWE, but that approach has not been effective in today's game. They are unable to implement that defensive scheme fully, otherwise, they'd be penalized a lot.

    The recent defensive failure is more an outcome of BB being slow to adjust to the changes in the NFL since 2005-2006. They figure out what they thoguht they needed to do on the O, thus bringing in Moss and Welker. But I don't think they've figured out how to defend well in a passing league. 

    People here talk about the D's lack of talent. I say, the Pats have more talent than back in the SB-winning days, but they have a lot of talent for that day.

    1) They have DTs who are more about standing their ground against the run than rushing the passer.

    2) In Spikes, Hightower and Mayo, they have big LBs who can defend the run, but are slow against the teams with more dynamic passing offenses.

    3) They have quick CBs, but are too small to win high balls against WRs who are getting taller each year. Not to mention they are being instructed to not look at the ball, so they now get called for PI.

    4) Safeties who are more about hitting the RB than covering a lot of ground or than not getting outrun by the WR (Chung). It's great to have someone who can hit the RB hard, but covering a lot of ground is probably more important now.

    Note, the composition of the team will work well against perhaps 20 of the 32 teams in the NFL. It will struggle against the top 12 teams, because those top 12 teams tend to be the ones with the better QBs, therefore the more dynamic passing offenses. 

    That said, they are not too far off from filling the holes.

    1 DT, an upgrade over Love (IMO, Love > Deaderick)

    1 CB, 6 ft or more, and can stay healthy enough to play more than 13 games.

    1 quicker (even if smaller - i.e. 230-240 lbs), to be used against teams who emphasize pass over run

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    IMHO, they are still trying to defend the way that won the SBs for NWE, but that approach has not been effective in today's game. They are unable to implement that defensive scheme fully, otherwise, they'd be penalized a lot.

    The recent defensive failure is more an outcome of BB being slow to adjust to the changes in the NFL since 2005-2006. They figure out what they thoguht they needed to do on the O, thus bringing in Moss and Welker. But I don't think they've figured out how to defend well in a passing league. 

    People here talk about the D's lack of talent. I say, the Pats have more talent than back in the SB-winning days, but they have a lot of talent for that day.

    1) They have DTs who are more about standing their ground against the run than rushing the passer.

    2) In Spikes, Hightower and Mayo, they have big LBs who can defend the run, but are slow against the teams with more dynamic passing offenses.

    3) They have quick CBs, but are too small to win high balls against WRs who are getting taller each year. Not to mention they are being instructed to not look at the ball, so they now get called for PI.

    4) Safeties who are more about hitting the RB than covering a lot of ground or than not getting outrun by the WR (Chung). It's great to have someone who can hit the RB hard, but covering a lot of ground is probably more important now.

    Note, the composition of the team will work well against perhaps 20 of the 32 teams in the NFL. It will struggle against the top 12 teams, because those top 12 teams tend to be the ones with the better QBs, therefore the more dynamic passing offenses. 

    That said, they are not too far off from filling the holes.

    1 DT, an upgrade over Love (IMO, Love > Deaderick)

    1 CB, 6 ft or more, and can stay healthy enough to play more than 13 games.

    1 quicker (even if smaller - i.e. 230-240 lbs), to be used against teams who emphasize pass over run




    I agree with most of this but I dont CB size is an issue with Talib coming back(if he does) and we also need a real safety. I get your point about safeties needing to cover ground but they Do also need to hit and Gregory and McCOurty arent intimidating anyone and gregory doesnt cover well enough to warrant not being a hitter either so you end up with a soft secondary that Wrs can run thru with no fear. Not good either

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

     

    IMHO, they are still trying to defend the way that won the SBs for NWE, but that approach has not been effective in today's game. They are unable to implement that defensive scheme fully, otherwise, they'd be penalized a lot.

    The recent defensive failure is more an outcome of BB being slow to adjust to the changes in the NFL since 2005-2006. They figure out what they thoguht they needed to do on the O, thus bringing in Moss and Welker. But I don't think they've figured out how to defend well in a passing league. 

    People here talk about the D's lack of talent. I say, the Pats have more talent than back in the SB-winning days, but they have a lot of talent for that day.

    1) They have DTs who are more about standing their ground against the run than rushing the passer.

    2) In Spikes, Hightower and Mayo, they have big LBs who can defend the run, but are slow against the teams with more dynamic passing offenses.

    3) They have quick CBs, but are too small to win high balls against WRs who are getting taller each year. Not to mention they are being instructed to not look at the ball, so they now get called for PI.

    4) Safeties who are more about hitting the RB than covering a lot of ground or than not getting outrun by the WR (Chung). It's great to have someone who can hit the RB hard, but covering a lot of ground is probably more important now.

    Note, the composition of the team will work well against perhaps 20 of the 32 teams in the NFL. It will struggle against the top 12 teams, because those top 12 teams tend to be the ones with the better QBs, therefore the more dynamic passing offenses. 

    That said, they are not too far off from filling the holes.

    1 DT, an upgrade over Love (IMO, Love > Deaderick)

    1 CB, 6 ft or more, and can stay healthy enough to play more than 13 games.

    1 quicker (even if smaller - i.e. 230-240 lbs), to be used against teams who emphasize pass over run

     




     

    I agree with most of this but I dont CB size is an issue with Talib coming back(if he does) and we also need a real safety. I get your point about safeties needing to cover ground but they Do also need to hit and Gregory and McCOurty arent intimidating anyone and gregory doesnt cover well enough to warrant not being a hitter either so you end up with a soft secondary that Wrs can run thru with no fear. Not good either



    In theory, you are tight about Talib. However, I mentioned that the CB should be able to stay healthy enough to play 13 games. Talib is great if he stays with the team. However, I anticipate that he will be out for 4-5 games a season. That leaves you with Dennard, who is also showing to be not that durable. Your third CB is Dowling who has an even worse health record. 

    Arrington does not count in this equation. He can stay, but not to be used to defend outside.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: How Did We Win 3 SB's Without A Vertical WR?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

     

    You also need a QB who is not a pick machine....Credit Flacco hes 12 TD and 1 INT his last 2 years in playoffs, which is 4 games.

     




     

    Listen Troll! If you are not gonna paint the whole picture than you are just gonna look dumb! Is Flacco now the best in the Biz! lol. What a joke you have become. Its a shame you dont jackshhhhh about the game. Brady had a great defense from 01-03 and THATS why his numbers look good because he never had to force a throw. With those defenses he was only asked to MANAGE THE GAME! Its hard to throw pics when most your throws are WR screens and playaction. The guy NEVER lined up in shotgun on 1st down and aired it out. Flacco throughout his WHOLE career has benefited from the same type of Defense Brady had in the wonder years and its even better which allows his Offensive coordinator to call the simplest of gameplans. Run on 1st, Run on 2nd, and thrown on 3rd when its 3rd and 4! ITS EASY!!!  You have to have a defense with you Moron, now go root for the Ravens in the SB YOu ignorant D*ck Rider!!!



    In fairness, they didn't do that against the Pats. After trying to run with Ray Rice, they just put Flacco in shotgun and he ripped our D apart. He also made a big time throw to Pitta against DEN in tight coverage within his own endzone. Flacco has played really well this post season.

     
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