How do you defend........

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sam-Adams. Show Sam-Adams's posts

    How do you defend........

    Lloyd and Stallworth split wide,
    WW in the slot,
    Gronk lined up at TE and
    Hernandez lined up next to WW.

    Now.......Lloyd draws his corner and one safety right? That leaves Stallworth one on one. Does the second safety come in and try and take Hernandez or does he watch for Gronk down the seam? Who takes Hernandez, a linebacker? Who has WW?  

    If the O-Line can give TB 4 seconds I can't see how this can be stopped.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsGnome. Show PatsGnome's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    I would never do this as the Patriots OC. I would never leave Brady in the backfield without protection.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    Pats have gone 5 wides on occasion which necessitates an empty backfield.  Requires crisp routes from the receivers and a quick throw from Brady if the D is blitzing otherwise it's viable.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: How do you defend........


    Oh no, not the shotgun spread!  

    Actually, it's a great formation that creates huge difficulties for the defense.  Really there are several approaches to defending it--here are three I might try: 

    • Blitz . . . overwhelm the O line with rushers and clog the likely passing lanes to the likely outlet receivers. In this scenario, you risk getting burned deep, but the hope for the defense is you can get to the QB before the deep plays materialize or force a poor throw deep.
    • Drop eight into coverage.  Lots of ways to do this.  Could be zone, could be man-to-man, or could be a hybrid scheme.  One of many possible approaches is cover to the two wideouts man-to-man, with one safety over the top, then drop five men into underneath zones.  
    • Hope a four man rush can get enough pressure, keep seven in coverage and just try to take away the big plays deep and force a short pass that doesn't result in many yards if it is completed. 



     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    This is a great set when its not overused. I would replace stalworth with Gaffney though. The problem is that we use the 4 and 5 wide sets too often which allows a defense to be in the rprt Also with Brady being the compeitot he is he absorbs some big hits in that set. Any offense we use will work well as we have the best QB to ever do it....he just can't do it alone. We need McD to utilize every piece of this high powered offense, something that has not happened too often since 2008 when we were forced to be creative.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    Drop Hernandez into the backfield as a dual threat and it gets even more interesting - 5 receivers that really need at least 5 dbs to cover, but also six blockers and a running back that threaten to blow up a nickle or dime on the ground.
    Don't want AH running very often but one or two carries a game creates the threat whenever he lines up back there.

    This offense is scary - two WR two TE sets with a back is just as difficult to defend since it can turn from 7 blocker run set, to 4 receiver set with a simple shift at the line of scrimmage. AH and RG are just a nightmare for defenses because they can do so many things.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to Re: How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]This is a great set when its not overused. I would replace stalworth with Gaffney though. The problem is that we use the 4 and 5 wide sets too often which allows a defense to be in the rprt Also with Brady being the compeitot he is he absorbs some big hits in that set. Any offense we use will work well as we have the best QB to ever do it....he just can't do it alone. We need McD to utilize every piece of this high powered offense, something that has not happened too often since 2008 when we were forced to be creative.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    Not to nitpick, but I don't recall NE running that many 5 wide sets since McD left.  Am I totally off base with this?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    You defend it by getting to Brady....period. This game is won or lost in the trenches. I don't care whether you run it or pass it, if your big guys up front don't do their jobs effectively, you will not win. All the talent in the world can't make up for an Oline that can't block.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to Re: How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]Oh no, not the shotgun spread!   Actually, it's a great formation that creates huge difficulties for the defense.  Really there are several approaches to defending it--here are three I might try:  Blitz . . . overwhelm the O line with rushers and clog the likely passing lanes to the likely outlet receivers. In this scenario, you risk getting burned deep, but the hope for the defense is you can get to the QB before the deep plays materialize or force a poor throw deep. Drop eight into coverage.  Lots of ways to do this.  Could be zone, could be man-to-man, or could be a hybrid scheme.  One of many possible approaches is cover to the two wideouts man-to-man, with one safety over the top, then drop five men into underneath zones.   Hope a four man rush can get enough pressure, keep seven in coverage and just try to take away the big plays deep and force a short pass that doesn't result in many yards if it is completed.   
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    defending tb on a 5-wide... 

    it used to be that the pats was one of few teams who did it a lot on d - deception and unpredictability. show tb one thing pre-snap and do something else a moment after the snap. not all teams do it successfully. but the successful teams against nwe do this well.

    it takes one or two sacks to make tb antsy. it's not a knock on him. it's how a qb reacts to being hit more than once. 

    they key is to make tb pass early. early in the game, crowd the box pre-snap. that gives the d flexibility to defend the run (even when pats don't go empty back) and the short and mid passes down the middle. that's like defending 80% of nwe's offensive attempts. at some point, show this pre-snap to conceal a blitz. unleash the blitz and sack.

    after this you could mix it up. show blitz then drop back 7. just confuse tb.



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to Re: How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]Oh no, not the shotgun spread!   Actually, it's a great formation that creates huge difficulties for the defense.  Really there are several approaches to defending it--here are three I might try:  Blitz . . . overwhelm the O line with rushers and clog the likely passing lanes to the likely outlet receivers. In this scenario, you risk getting burned deep, but the hope for the defense is you can get to the QB before the deep plays materialize or force a poor throw deep. Drop eight into coverage.  Lots of ways to do this.  Could be zone, could be man-to-man, or could be a hybrid scheme.  One of many possible approaches is cover to the two wideouts man-to-man, with one safety over the top, then drop five men into underneath zones.   Hope a four man rush can get enough pressure, keep seven in coverage and just try to take away the big plays deep and force a short pass that doesn't result in many yards if it is completed.   
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    This and actually the teams that generally give the Pats the most trouble are teams that can generate a pass rush from only 4 rushes or overload blitzes (Balt, Pit, NYG)

    That's the reason for having a balanced O to prevent teams from loading the field with 7+ DB's or to overload on the blitz
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to Re: How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How do you defend........ : This and actually the teams that generally give the Pats the most trouble are teams that can generate a pass rush from only 4 rushes or overload blitzes (Balt, Pit, NYG) That's the reason for having a balanced O to prevent teams from loading the field with 7+ DB's or to overload on the blitz
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Exactly . . . this was what killed the perfect season in 2007.  Giants got huge amounts of pressure from their 4 DLs without having to blitz.  If I remember correctly, we also had some injuries on our O line in that Super Bowl.  Wasn't Kaczur (who wasn't great at handling the blitz anyway) less than 100%?  Neal also had been battling injuries that year too if I remember right.    
     
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]Lloyd and Stallworth split wide, WW in the slot, Gronk lined up at TE and Hernandez lined up next to WW. Now.......Lloyd draws his corner and one safety right? That leaves Stallworth one on one. Does the second safety come in and try and take Hernandez or does he watch for Gronk down the seam? Who takes Hernandez, a linebacker? Who has WW?   If the O-Line can give TB 4 seconds I can't see how this can be stopped.  
    Posted by Sam-Adams[/QUOTE]
    Without Rusty around, you might get some serious conversation on this topic. 

    If Rusty is watching from a "guest" perspective, he is currently pulling out his hair (if he has any) and cursing his PC and BDC for not having the opportunity to call this ridiculous and the very reason for no SB's. 

    To me, it does sound like a scary proposition and makes one understand why teams so frequently take so many DB's. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatFanInBA2. Show PatFanInBA2's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    I think the key is the O-line - if they can give TB 3 - 4 seconds, then this will be a potent formation.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Quagmire3. Show Quagmire3's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    this thread has me jonesing for the season to start!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    Employ a 4 man defensive line talented enough to beat the 5 blockers in front of them and hope the opposing offensive coordinator on the Patriot side is foolish enough to think it will work time and time again... see the last two Super Bowl results.

    There is nothing wrong with the 5 wide set as long as it's used in unison with some I-Formation pounding the rock, the important thing is to keep the opposing side off balance and confused.  We ran the 5 wide set in 2001, it's nothing new...

    Let's see some screens, counter runs, draw plays, flea flickers, quick pitch's, misdirection plays, let's put Gronk, Hernandez out there and pass the ball to Daniel Fells because he's uncovered.  

    We can pass all day and rack up great fantasy numbers, or we can be an efficient, third down converting machine that always comes away with at least a field goal and/or time of possession so our D gets a breather and has gas to attack.  

    We can't only rely on our 2 minute drill to get some points in a high pressure environment like a Super Bowl, we need to dictate the pace and control the outcome of games, we need to punch the other guy in the face and enforce our will on others.  In short we need to have finesse, but we have to out muscle the other guy when finesse fails.

    Cue Josh McDaniel's...



     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    With a joker formation (3 WR, 2 TE) we might assume that the defense is afraid of a Hernandez run.  In such a case, the defense might put their heavier, slower players on the field to stop the run and not their blitz specialists.  That's the point where a 5-wide shotgun really gets potent.

    A pass-catching running back such as Woodhead, Vereen or even Ridley will also make the defense think about stopping the run.  Then, with the wrong defenders on the field, it's fun to go 5-wide.  Stallworth isn't that much better than Ridley.

    P.S. All of the best Gronk/Hernandez dominations were coming at the end of last year.  It's a great thing to carry forward into next September.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/10/2011%E2%80%B2s-best-performances-tight-ends/
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to Re: How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]this thread has me jonesing for the season to start!
    Posted by Quagmire3[/QUOTE]

    It's a good thread . . . thanks Sam Adams . . . 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    What really makes these five-wide looks effective is if you can catch the defense with the wrong personnel and then go hurry up so they can't get off the field. One thing the Pats used to do well (and it kind of gets to Wozzy's point about mixing things up) is use Faulk or other backs in the five-wide. The defense might keep a LB in and not go to a 5 DB package if a running back was on the field.  But with a running back like Faulk you could flex him out to the wideout position (Faulk used to often line up outside the hash marks) and create a five-wide look with a 1-back offensive package.  As some have pointed out, Hernandez can sometimes morph into a back, which allows for a similar form of deception . . . or maybe we'll end up with a Faulk-like versatile back again who can be a true dual threat to run or receive.  
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]Lloyd and Stallworth split wide, WW in the slot, Gronk lined up at TE and Hernandez lined up next to WW. Now.......Lloyd draws his corner and one safety right? That leaves Stallworth one on one. Does the second safety come in and try and take Hernandez or does he watch for Gronk down the seam? Who takes Hernandez, a linebacker? Who has WW?   If the O-Line can give TB 4 seconds I can't see how this can be stopped.  
    Posted by Sam-Adams[/QUOTE]

    Simple, get to Brady  - hit his arm, get him on the move, knock his azz down. You get to Brady, it don't matter how many good receivers you have.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sam-Adams. Show Sam-Adams's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    Thanks guys, as usual you all have a great knowledge of the game and thats what I was looking for. I read some great ways to stop it but that's easier said than done. The Giants have had success with their front four but few others. I also read how it can't be overused and I can't agree more. Without a good running attack the five wide becomes run down and easy for defensive coordinators to gameplay for. I thought OB had a serious problem with this and it's something I don't see Josh doing. Then there's the four seconds..........if only we an expect this ever uptime TB drops back his percentage will go through the roof. Whether its Gaffney or Stallworth with single coverage, Gronk down the seam, Hernandez from anywhere he wants, Lloyd burning deep, Welker creating holes for first downs after first downs, Fells steam rolling people and the running game hopefully catching everyone by surprise this team has the potential to run the table. Oh yeah Quagmire, that
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from leonardo0110. Show leonardo0110's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    This is very easy to stop....just put pressure with 4 and be very physical with the receivers. I don't know if you guys remember someone mentioned this before (I forgot who) that our receivers weren't that effective when the opposition played very physical with the jams and all that sort of things. But on paper it looks easy to stop, the problem is not many teams can execute a gameplan like that by just rushing 4.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to Re: How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]This is very easy to stop....just put pressure with 4 and be very physical with the receivers. I don't know if you guys remember someone mentioned this before (I forgot who) that our receivers weren't that effective when the opposition played very physical with the jams and all that sort of things. But on paper it looks easy to stop, the problem is not many teams can execute a gameplan like that by just rushing 4.
    Posted by leonardo0110[/QUOTE]

    The Giants are great at it.  The Jets used to do it pretty well too, though they used a lot more scheming to get it done (overloading one side of the line or disguising rushers), while the Giants can just beat you straight up because they have so many good pass rushers among their DLs and LBs. 

    Throwing the receivers off their routes and timing really does help too when the QB can't hold the ball long.  

    It's "easy" to defend if you can do all these things, but a lot of defenses can't do them because the skills and talent required aren't easy to come by!




     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    In Response to How do you defend........:
    [QUOTE]Lloyd and Stallworth split wide, WW in the slot, Gronk lined up at TE and Hernandez lined up next to WW. Now.......Lloyd draws his corner and one safety right? That leaves Stallworth one on one. Does the second safety come in and try and take Hernandez or does he watch for Gronk down the seam? Who takes Hernandez, a linebacker? Who has WW?   If the O-Line can give TB 4 seconds I can't see how this can be stopped.  
    Posted by Sam-Adams[/QUOTE]

    LOL, get use to Patriots winning 45-14 games this season.

    That new 6'5 kid they picked up from Kentucky is the type of WR we need too. has height and mucsle that can make it hard for 5'11' CBSs
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: How do you defend........

    I think our two tight ends along with Llyod will give the offense a bit of a different look, simply because the offense was missing that little extra something on the edges last year...I hope Llyod will provide that. Really Stallworth and Gaffney are question marks because of their age, but I imaging one will stick. I'd be shocked if Ocho made it out of camp - same for Gonzalez.

    I imagine that Vareen will/could have the biggest impact on the offense - we haven't had a guy will his skill set at the running back position in a long time. If he could get things going, the whole offense could be very very good, but it's the defense that really needs to improve. We all know that Brady will get us to the play offs throwing to guys like Reche Caldwell, it's just a matter of if the defense can hold up their end of things.
     

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