How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    Simply put... health...  Continuity should help this group immensely.  Sign Vollmer of course, but continuity is number 1. 

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    Ummm, get better players.

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    After all the running backs that came, not succeed and went since Dillon, I have to wonder if the OLine is as good as everyone raves them to be. They excel at protecting at pass blocking. But recent history on run eprformance suggests they really don't do well at pass blocking, particularly against the more robust DLines.

    In the playoffs of recent years, it has not been unusual to see opposing DLmen penetrating to the backfield, even before the RB gets three steps (It's one thing to get the RB before they get back to the LOS, but giving up teh tackle so soon is bad). Even with the talent they have now (Ridley, Vereen and Bolden) now at RB, theys till struggle to conssistetnly run the ball well. Other teams have achieved more with less. 

    Is it talent? Is it the way they are coached - ergo how they prepare for games?

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    Jake Long.




    Rather have Marty Short.

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    After all the running backs that came, not succeed and went since Dillon, I have to wonder if the OLine is as good as everyone raves them to be. They excel at protecting at pass blocking. But recent history on run eprformance suggests they really don't do well at pass blocking, particularly against the more robust DLines.

    In the playoffs of recent years, it has not been unusual to see opposing DLmen penetrating to the backfield, even before the RB gets three steps (It's one thing to get the RB before they get back to the LOS, but giving up teh tackle so soon is bad). Even with the talent they have now (Ridley, Vereen and Bolden) now at RB, theys till struggle to conssistetnly run the ball well. Other teams have achieved more with less. 

    Is it talent? Is it the way they are coached - ergo how they prepare for games?



    These are the same questions I have...

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    Wendell has transformed himself from a borderline C to maybe top 15-20 C's in the league. 

    An arguement can be made that they are in shotgun so often because they do not run the ball well.

     



    I think Wendell stepped up and did well. BUT - being 15-20th of 32 starting centers is no formula for a SB. If he cannot break into the top 8-12 then look for someone better as your starter.

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    Wendell has transformed himself from a borderline C to maybe top 15-20 C's in the league. 

    An arguement can be made that they are in shotgun so often because they do not run the ball well.

     
    No, an argument can't be made for that. At all.  Brady said he prefers the shotgun spread on WEEI in October of 2010.

     

    Wendell had a better year last year than Nick Mangold. Truth.

     




     yeah no but fumble will do that

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    I would like them to:

    1. resign Vollmer

    2. Upgrade either C or RG either by Cannon being the answer at G, or drafting or FA.

    3. Upgrade the backup blocking TE. After losing a healthy Gronk the blocking was suspect. DO not underestimate this piece. This player is both the third TE and can be the 2nd if you take out Hern. REMEMBER Crumpler. Remember what he did for Tennessee blocking for Chris Johnson. Having some real enforcer blocking can make a big difference especially in physical games.

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

    Donald Thomas was very good when he came in, but he barely played. I think played in Buffalo and that was it as far as extended snaps. Not a very good context.

    Meanwhile, Connolly has been a very stable Center or Guard here for 3 years.

    Maybe he battled the shoulder all year and that affected his usual strong play?  I am one who wants Thomas resigned, and if he were to beat out Connolly in camp, then so be it. 

    I still cannot figure out why Mankins continues to get a free pass here, while other OL are scapegoated out of town.

    It's unreal.


    I believe Thomas started and played 7 full games last year - replacing both Mankins and Connoly when they each went down. I think he also saw significant snaps in a few other games when the injuries or other knocks occured - I think I saw somewhere that he was over 50% of the offensive snaps in total for the year. So while he wasn't a full time starter he had a large enough body of work for a rating system to produce useful results. I want him to be resigned, but he may have raised his stock high enough to be priced out of the Pats market.

    On Connoly - he got a hefty signing bonus so there is 2+M in dead cap money attached to him if he were cut this year. He was signed to replace Koppen at center with the added benefit that he could fill in at guard as well (which Koppen never did.) When Waters did not report Connoly was shifted back to guard and Wendell took over at center. I think both of them are middle of the pack as starters at their positions and are decent value for what they are paid. I think Thomas is a better guard, but he is a FA and could sign for significantly more. Would it be nice to upgrade at center or guard - yes. But there probably isn't a center available that would be an upgrade and the guards out there that are significantly better are going to be getting big money and I would rather spend that type of money on CBs, safety, or WR.

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

     

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

     

    After all the running backs that came, not succeed and went since Dillon, I have to wonder if the OLine is as good as everyone raves them to be. They excel at protecting at pass blocking. But recent history on run eprformance suggests they really don't do well at pass blocking, particularly against the more robust DLines.

    In the playoffs of recent years, it has not been unusual to see opposing DLmen penetrating to the backfield, even before the RB gets three steps (It's one thing to get the RB before they get back to the LOS, but giving up teh tackle so soon is bad). Even with the talent they have now (Ridley, Vereen and Bolden) now at RB, theys till struggle to conssistetnly run the ball well. Other teams have achieved more with less. 

    Is it talent? Is it the way they are coached - ergo how they prepare for games?

     




    So, we have a QB who races to 40+ passes, is worse with ball control and game management, etc, yet this is on the O Line?

     

    Hmm.

    "I prefer the shotgun." - Tom Brady, 2010

    You can't get around it. You just can't. There is no real other common denominator other than Brady having autonomy to audible and run the offense how he chooses to run it. Manning has this power too, so when he throws 3 INTs or Brady throws 2 INTs in close games, each's butt is on the line.

    NEWSFLASH: If we had a QB who was more so under Center and they committed more to the run in the right way v.s. Brady audibiling out of those formations, ON TOP of the already heavy shotgun spread, the O Line would be better than it has been when they sell out to the pass shotgun garbage we've seen via Brady's leadership.

    Brady has been chasing this for his own entertainment for years. Years. I remember back in 2002 when he wanted to do it, but Weis reined him in.  He had to. It wasn't going to work.

    He still reined him in for 2003.  In 2004 BB got Dillon to keep Brady from wanting to throw so much.

    It's been a challenge ever since. For the love of god, stop looking for excuses everywhere but the QB.

    Is it talent? NO. Is it coaching? NO. Scarneccchia should be considered for the HOF, that's how great he is. So, no. Ugh.

    Could it be how Brady runs the offense when he feels they aren't scoring quickly enough, then telling Ds what plays they'll be running, making it harder on the O Line? Hmm?

    You enjoying this every January, are ya?

     

     

     

    So Rusty, if BB is the greatest GM of all time, why is he extending Brady's contract rather than cutting him? If Brady has been a problem child since 2002 (when you say Weis reined him in) and no one since Weis has been able to control him, why has BB allowed the problem to fester for a decade? Is BB that helpless?

    I think you've backed yourself by your arguments into a bit of a hole here.  You think the shotgun is a problem. But you think BB is nearly infallible as GM and coach. Therefore you feel like you need to blame someone other than BB for an offensive style the Pats have employed since at least 2007. So you blame Brady. But really, if BB felt the shotgun was a problem would he stand by helplessly for years while his QB hurt the team by insisting on calling shotgun plays? This just seems absurd--and if it's true BB is a spineless incompetent.

    Why not just admit what every other sensible fan can admit? The Pats have some deficiencies in talent that have prevented them from going as far as we'd all like.  BB has done a great job of keeping the talent level generally good and coaching it to victories, but he's operating in a system that is designed to make it harder for winning teams to acquire and keep top players and easier for losing teams to do that.  The reason we've struggled in the postseason is because we've had issues with depth and diversity of talent in general and we've also had injuries to key players which have hurt us in particular matchups.  

    The O line is a perfect example. Generaly it's pretty good and it's well coached. But it's had weaknesses every year (Kazcur at right tackle, various JAGs in the interior line at different times) and, most important, has suffered injuries that have affected its performance in the post season. I don't think O line is our biggest problem by any means, but shoring up the interior and signing Vollmer or an equivalent talent at RT are desirable offseason moves.  Avoiding injuries, though, is maybe even more important come next postseason. The injuries especially have been problematic becuase they've pushed a decent line over the border into poor line territory, with disasterous results against teams with great defensive fronts.

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    Long will want 10m per season so he is not the answer. Scar will always coach his players up, so he is partly the answer, draft a guard ( warmack) and sign a FB. I'd like to have a full back that can pick up the blitz or hammer it in on goal line.  A low risk signing see Waters would not be bad either. As many have mentioned the line is not really that bad  at all and the main key is keeping the line healthy. 

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    Hannah - agree.

    I thought about this more and I wouldn't mind the Pats spending some extra on Thomas and moving him to right guard, moving Connoly back to center and keeping Wendell as the interior line depth. Mankins has three years left on his guaranteed deal and hasn't been quite so good the last couple of years (maybe due to injuries, but ...) I could see signing Thomas to a fairly backloaded contract at around 4M/year with the early cap hits being in the 2+M range. That way the cap is manageable until the last year of Mankins deal when he may be amenable to a renegotiation downward. Not sure there is a better RG in free agency at a reasonable price and I think Thomas is looking at a 4/16M type of contract on the open market.

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    Sorry I meant  Warford ,! Warmack won't be there. All valid points about Mankins. If the pats have to extend McCourty and Spikes where does the $ come from. 

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

     

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

     

    After all the running backs that came, not succeed and went since Dillon, I have to wonder if the OLine is as good as everyone raves them to be. They excel at protecting at pass blocking. But recent history on run eprformance suggests they really don't do well at pass blocking, particularly against the more robust DLines.

    In the playoffs of recent years, it has not been unusual to see opposing DLmen penetrating to the backfield, even before the RB gets three steps (It's one thing to get the RB before they get back to the LOS, but giving up teh tackle so soon is bad). Even with the talent they have now (Ridley, Vereen and Bolden) now at RB, theys till struggle to conssistetnly run the ball well. Other teams have achieved more with less. 

    Is it talent? Is it the way they are coached - ergo how they prepare for games?

     




    So, we have a QB who races to 40+ passes, is worse with ball control and game management, etc, yet this is on the O Line?

     

    Hmm.

    "I prefer the shotgun." - Tom Brady, 2010

    You can't get around it. You just can't. There is no real other common denominator other than Brady having autonomy to audible and run the offense how he chooses to run it. Manning has this power too, so when he throws 3 INTs or Brady throws 2 INTs in close games, each's butt is on the line.

    NEWSFLASH: If we had a QB who was more so under Center and they committed more to the run in the right way v.s. Brady audibiling out of those formations, ON TOP of the already heavy shotgun spread, the O Line would be better than it has been when they sell out to the pass shotgun garbage we've seen via Brady's leadership.

    Brady has been chasing this for his own entertainment for years. Years. I remember back in 2002 when he wanted to do it, but Weis reined him in.  He had to. It wasn't going to work.

    He still reined him in for 2003.  In 2004 BB got Dillon to keep Brady from wanting to throw so much.

    It's been a challenge ever since. For the love of god, stop looking for excuses everywhere but the QB.

    Is it talent? NO. Is it coaching? NO. Scarneccchia should be considered for the HOF, that's how great he is. So, no. Ugh.

    Could it be how Brady runs the offense when he feels they aren't scoring quickly enough, then telling Ds what plays they'll be running, making it harder on the O Line? Hmm?

    You enjoying this every January, are ya?

     

     

     

    So Rusty, if BB is the greatest GM of all time, why is he extending Brady's contract rather than cutting him? If Brady has been a problem child since 2002 (when you say Weis reined him in) and no one since Weis has been able to control him, why has BB allowed the problem to fester for a decade? Is BB that helpless?

    I think you've backed yourself by your arguments into a bit of a hole here.  You think the shotgun is a problem. But you think BB is nearly infallible as GM and coach. Therefore you feel like you need to blame someone other than BB for an offensive style the Pats have employed since at least 2007. So you blame Brady. But really, if BB felt the shotgun was a problem would he stand by helplessly for years while his QB hurt the team by insisting on calling shotgun plays? This just seems absurd--and if it's true BB is a spineless incompetent.

    Why not just admit what every other sensible fan can admit? The Pats have some deficiencies in talent that have prevented them from going as far as we'd all like.  BB has done a great job of keeping the talent level generally good and coaching it to victories, but he's operating in a system that is designed to make it harder for winning teams to acquire and keep top players and easier for losing teams to do that.  The reason we've struggled in the postseason is because we've had issues with depth and diversity of talent in general and we've also had injuries to key players which have hurt us in particular matchups.  

    The O line is a perfect example. Generaly it's pretty good and it's well coached. But it's had weaknesses every year (Kazcur at right tackle, various JAGs in the interior line at different times) and, most important, has suffered injuries that have affected its performance in the post season. I don't think O line is our biggest problem by any means, but shoring up the interior and signing Vollmer or an equivalent talent at RT are desirable offseason moves.  Avoiding injuries, though, is maybe even more important come next postseason. The injuries especially have been problematic becuase they've pushed a decent line over the border into poor line territory, with disasterous results against teams with great defensive fronts.




    Rusty is obviously an obsessed individual (not in a good way), who can not keep his disstain for the G.O.A.T. out of any conversation even though the Op clearly said to do so.

    Has there ever been a more irrational and conflicting evaluation of both the QB and the coach, EVER?

    One is a puss and allowing the other selfish, stat driven, one to ruin the team.

    Has there ever been any thing further from the truth?  Only in crusty's world.

    The idea that the shotgun O should be reined in is a W TF  It works and if it didn't, would surely be a non factor.  It is not the root of all evil in fact going back to the 2001 SB, the game winning final drive was 100% shotgun.  GO figure!

    Any explanation as to why being under center and committing to the run has proven ineffective and resulted in low points against the better teams?  Talent???

    Chasing it for his own entertainment??????  LOL Priceless!

     
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    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to RidingWithTheKing's comment:

     

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

     

    After all the running backs that came, not succeed and went since Dillon, I have to wonder if the OLine is as good as everyone raves them to be. They excel at protecting at pass blocking. But recent history on run eprformance suggests they really don't do well at pass blocking, particularly against the more robust DLines.

    In the playoffs of recent years, it has not been unusual to see opposing DLmen penetrating to the backfield, even before the RB gets three steps (It's one thing to get the RB before they get back to the LOS, but giving up teh tackle so soon is bad). Even with the talent they have now (Ridley, Vereen and Bolden) now at RB, theys till struggle to conssistetnly run the ball well. Other teams have achieved more with less. 

    Is it talent? Is it the way they are coached - ergo how they prepare for games?

     




    So, we have a QB who races to 40+ passes, is worse with ball control and game management, etc, yet this is on the O Line?

     

    Hmm.

    "I prefer the shotgun." - Tom Brady, 2010

    You can't get around it. You just can't. There is no real other common denominator other than Brady having autonomy to audible and run the offense how he chooses to run it. Manning has this power too, so when he throws 3 INTs or Brady throws 2 INTs in close games, each's butt is on the line.

    NEWSFLASH: If we had a QB who was more so under Center and they committed more to the run in the right way v.s. Brady audibiling out of those formations, ON TOP of the already heavy shotgun spread, the O Line would be better than it has been when they sell out to the pass shotgun garbage we've seen via Brady's leadership.

    Brady has been chasing this for his own entertainment for years. Years. I remember back in 2002 when he wanted to do it, but Weis reined him in.  He had to. It wasn't going to work.

    He still reined him in for 2003.  In 2004 BB got Dillon to keep Brady from wanting to throw so much.

    It's been a challenge ever since. For the love of god, stop looking for excuses everywhere but the QB.

    Is it talent? NO. Is it coaching? NO. Scarneccchia should be considered for the HOF, that's how great he is. So, no. Ugh.

    Could it be how Brady runs the offense when he feels they aren't scoring quickly enough, then telling Ds what plays they'll be running, making it harder on the O Line? Hmm?

    You enjoying this every January, are ya?

     

     

     

    So Rusty, if BB is the greatest GM of all time, why is he extending Brady's contract rather than cutting him? If Brady has been a problem child since 2002 (when you say Weis reined him in) and no one since Weis has been able to control him, why has BB allowed the problem to fester for a decade? Is BB that helpless?

    I think you've backed yourself by your arguments into a bit of a hole here.  You think the shotgun is a problem. But you think BB is nearly infallible as GM and coach. Therefore you feel like you need to blame someone other than BB for an offensive style the Pats have employed since at least 2007. So you blame Brady. But really, if BB felt the shotgun was a problem would he stand by helplessly for years while his QB hurt the team by insisting on calling shotgun plays? This just seems absurd--and if it's true BB is a spineless incompetent.

    Why not just admit what every other sensible fan can admit? The Pats have some deficiencies in talent that have prevented them from going as far as we'd all like.  BB has done a great job of keeping the talent level generally good and coaching it to victories, but he's operating in a system that is designed to make it harder for winning teams to acquire and keep top players and easier for losing teams to do that.  The reason we've struggled in the postseason is because we've had issues with depth and diversity of talent in general and we've also had injuries to key players which have hurt us in particular matchups.  

    The O line is a perfect example. Generaly it's pretty good and it's well coached. But it's had weaknesses every year (Kazcur at right tackle, various JAGs in the interior line at different times) and, most important, has suffered injuries that have affected its performance in the post season. I don't think O line is our biggest problem by any means, but shoring up the interior and signing Vollmer or an equivalent talent at RT are desirable offseason moves.  Avoiding injuries, though, is maybe even more important come next postseason. The injuries especially have been problematic becuase they've pushed a decent line over the border into poor line territory, with disasterous results against teams with great defensive fronts.

     




    If BB was sitting across the table, I'd say point blank to him that Brady runs too much shotgun, the offense is too finesse because of it and there are over a dozen games of evidence (since 2005) where the Pats literally lost games because of this problem.

     

    I do hold BB responsibility for it. Said it here many times.  I am not sure he realizes how many games NE has blown because of this problem rooted in the offense.  I am not even sure Brady does. But, they keep doing it every year.

    But, to sit there and claim NE has a "lack of talent" and that's why Brady hasn't played well, whether it be 2007's postseason or this past one, is preposterous. 2009, sure. 2010, no. 2011, no. 2012, no.

    2006 you could argue that and I would agree.  But, not in these last few years. 90% of QBs would drool over having that he's had here since BB brought in Gronk and Hern and dealt Moss away in 2010.

    When you're up 17-9, 17-12 and then 17-15 in the 4th qtr, no one is sitting there saying "gee, we have limited talent, I can't see them getting a FG or a TD here in the 4th qtr".

    To hold BB's feet to the fire to build an All Star team when the cap is set up against you, is absolutely irrational.

     



    I give you credit Rusty for standing up and saying straight out that you think Belichick has made mistakes as a coach.  I don't agree with you, but I applaud your directness. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: How does the Pats o-line get better next season?

    Ballardis going to help the O line.  I wonder if he might go in as a full back. If we want to run better then we have to o it in more pressure intuitions. Why throw it on 3 rd and 3 when you can run it and maybe have a 4 th and a half yard as opposed to 4 th and 3. If Ridley didn't fumble in the playoffs it would have been a different game. 

    A blocking TE always helps.  When Gronk went down we lost that meanness   

     

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