How good as GM is BB?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrcahill. Show jrcahill's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    Babe,

    Voting on something like this is absurd because it is way too subjective. BB has made mistakes but what GM doesn't?  You rail against "idiots" who think BB is great GM, so I am curious as to what parameters you set for identifying an individual as a great GM? Can you provide us an example of someone you think is a great GM in the NFL and why?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    This post is hilarious.

    name a GM better then BB.

    Name 5.

    I would put BB in the top 3 at the moment.

    The giants GM takes the stop spot(it kills me but facts are facts the Gmen have the two rings we should have had)

    Bill Belicheck

    The packers have done some good things(rodgers/flynn, Defense, young offensive weapons)

    Name some GM's you would rate above BB. Stop just spouting nonsense and back up what you are saying.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    It's hard to argue that he's not the best GM of the salary cap era. If he's not the best, then he's Top 3 along with the GMs who built the only other multiple-Super Bowl winners over the past 10 years (Giants and Steelers).

    The "great" Bill Polian just got canned because he spent a decade building his roster around 1 player, and when that player disappeared from the scene it turned out that Polian had himself a 2-14 team on his hands.

    AJ Smith was once considered to be one of the best, but his decision to hire Norv Turner, and then to keep him around for far too long, has doomed that team to underachievement.

    Ozzie Newsome? Very good GM, but 1 SB appearance during his tenure hardly qualifies him to be ranked ahead of Belichick.

    Belichick has missed on some draft picks in the last five years...he certainly has. But he's also hit on quite a few, too. His detractors never like to admit that his success rate in the draft is as good or better than most teams, but it is.

    And someone else pointed this out but it bears repeating: when you're constantly picking at the end of the first round, the chances of acquiring "superstars" through the draft diminish. It doesn't mean that it can't be done, but it just makes it harder. Does anyone doubt that if BB had the chance to draft Von Miller last year that he would have taken him? Problem is that the Von Miller's of the world are long gone by the time BB and the Pats step up to the podium for the first time. Such is the price of constant success in the NFL.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from jeffab. Show jeffab's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    Above average to good. But there really aren't any "great" GMs in total Babe.  Sorry, I've been watching football too long to see that. Some people have "great runs" as GMs. But no matter who it comes down too, if they stay in long enough, they hit a nadir in their career.  BB is certainly good. He has kept the team in contention for so long. Yes, the last half decade that final piece has eluded him. But then, that is still pretty good, all told.  I guess the proposition would be  ... who has done markedly better? Who is a step above? The list would be short, if at all. 
    Posted by zbellino



    Yup, this about sums it up.  As Mike Reiss always points out, BB takes the approach as a GM that the draft is PART of the process of putting a team together.  He has done an excellent job of keeping the team competitive WHILE rebuilding.  I think that's the thing a lot of people forget.  This has been sustained excellence every year for more than a decade (no losing seasons).  That's pretty hard to do, with all the moving pieces.  Steelers, Colts, Packers, Saints, Giants have all had their downturns with 1 or 2 poor/terrible seasons over that time span, but the Pats consistently win.  You can credit Brady, but the Cassel season is always there as evidence to the contrary.  It's a lot easier to get elite talent through the draft when you have a top 10 pick....that usually doesn't happen unless you stink for a year or mortgage your future trading up.  I can't think of a better situation than having BB run the team the way he does.  We can scrounge through his transactions and bemoan each failure as if the world is ending.....or we can have perspective and a long term memory and think back to how this team was in the past.  He's not perfect, but he's above average.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : Team's don't "rebuild" while they have the elite QB. They "rebuild" after they're gone. See - Colts, right now. What they do is "replenish". But queenie doesn't even get that.
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Wrong.

    Football is a TEAM game. The colts put all of their eggs on one basket with manning. they had NO backup QB(curtis painter is a joke, and will never play in the NFL again) They had no depth, and thier GM's morgaged the future on a QB without even having him take a physical.

    The patriots draft a new QB every single year, in conjuncture with having a starter(brady) and a backup already in place (cassel/hoyer/flutie).

    Thinking about how the patriots "rebuild" compared to other teams is thinking like a doomsday prepper.

    BB has a bunker with a years worth of food and supplies, and a seperate bunker with everything needed to build a house.

    The colts are the people living in tornado ally without tornado insurance.

    There is no comparision. BB has the patriots prepared for any situation, including losing the starting QB for the year(11-5 with cassel). We have depth all over the roster so that when a starter goes down or plays poorly someone else steps in and shines (Kyle Arrington).

    You say the patriots didnt rebuild because we still had brady, I say we Fixed the foundation of an old house without having to stay at a hotel for a couple of years.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BassFishing. Show BassFishing's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    He's an idiot.  We'll see how strong Pitt is with Roethlisberger and them in a semi-rebuild phase right now.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    Babe and I disagree on BB's performance as GM.  I consider him to be better than most of the other NFL GMs; Babe does not.  Babe attributes the team's success over the years to Brady's presence more than anything else.  I consider Brady to be a great QB but not the reason the team wins more than it loses year in, year out.

    In the final analysis, we'll not know until Brady decides to pull the plug how well prepared the team is for his departure.  This will be a strong indicator but not the final determinant in my judgment. 

    And since Babe and I have been down this road before I'll not paste in any of the several links from independent observers that speak to BBs credentials as a GM over the long haul.  He will no doubt post that he has debunked them but I really shouldn't presume to post/speak for him; I'm merely anticipating his reply should he choose to do so.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    He's an idiot.  We'll see how strong Pitt is with Roethlisberger and them in a semi-rebuild phase right now.
    Posted by BassFishing


    I still can't figure Babe out, to be honest.

    I can't tell if he's just not very football savvy; if he's just trying to be contrarian just to stir things up; or if he's just a spoiled, unrealistic fan who expects a Lombardi Trophy in Foxboro every year, and thus he's hyper-critical of BB because they haven't won a Lombardi in 8 years (largely due to some bad luck, especially in the last two Super Bowls and in the AFC title game "loss" at Indy in '06).

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    "if BB is such a good GM why dont we have clay mathews?!" - Babe 

    Thats the atypicle arguement i expect to happen.


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrcahill. Show jrcahill's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    ATJ,

    That is my point. He debunks everyone else but doesn't offer parameters for what he considers to be a great GM.  I would like him to do this and then offer a GM he considers to be great in the salary cap era.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    jrc, I have made a similar request of Babe and I did so in much the same way that you did.  Babe has a right to his opinions but I truly would like for him to outline his criteria.  For one thing, it would certainly be helpful in understanding his point of view.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from zeitgeist49. Show zeitgeist49's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    It's hard to argue that he's not the best GM of the salary cap era. If he's not the best, then he's Top 3 along with the GMs who built the only other multiple-Super Bowl winners over the past 10 years (Giants and Steelers). The "great" Bill Polian just got canned because he spent a decade building his roster around 1 player, and when that player disappeared from the scene it turned out that Polian had himself a 2-14 team on his hands. AJ Smith was once considered to be one of the best, but his decision to hire Norv Turner, and then to keep him around for far too long, has doomed that team to underachievement. Ozzie Newsome? Very good GM, but 1 SB appearance during his tenure hardly qualifies him to be ranked ahead of Belichick. Belichick has missed on some draft picks in the last five years...he certainly has. But he's also hit on quite a few, too. His detractors never like to admit that his success rate in the draft is as good or better than most teams, but it is. And someone else pointed this out but it bears repeating: when you're constantly picking at the end of the first round, the chances of acquiring "superstars" through the draft diminish. It doesn't mean that it can't be done, but it just makes it harder. Does anyone doubt that if BB had the chance to draft Von Miller last year that he would have taken him? Problem is that the Von Miller's of the world are long gone by the time BB and the Pats step up to the podium for the first time. Such is the price of constant success in the NFL.
    Posted by hardright


    So essentially, what most PATS fans are saying is : We  have  an  excellent  GM, the  best  coach  in  the  NFL  and  have  an  elite  QB.  So  why  haven't  the  PATS  won  a  SB  in  7  years ?  BB  could  possibly  go  10  years  with  TB  and  not  win  another  SB.  That  doesn't  add  up.  I  believe  BB  is  the  best  NFL  coach.  I  believe  TB  is  the  best  NFL  QB.  But  as  a  GM, BB  has  had  so  many  2nd  and  3rd  round  and  FA  busts.  Way  too  many  busts.  And  the  PATS  only  had  7  returning  players  last  year  from  SB42  compared  with  16  for  the  Giants.  I'm  sure  BB  wouldn't  be  happy  if  we  only  have  7  current  players  on  the  2015  roster.  During  BB's  tenure, the  PATS  have  never  had  a  dominating  D.  During  01 - 04,  the  D  had  key  playmakers  like  McGinnest, Law, Harrison  and  Seymour.  But  the  D  has  never  been  close  to  being  a  dominant  D.  Even  in  the  3  SB  wins, the  D  gave  up  double  digit  advantages  during  those  games.  And  as  Babe  has  pointed  out, during  the  last  3  games  against  the  Giants, the  D  gave  up  the  the  winning  drive  in  all  3  games.  NOT  A  COINCIDENCE.  And  in  06  BB  had  no  confidence  our  D  could  stop  the  Colts  and  hence  the  decision  to  go  on  4th  and  2.  I  think  BB  has  over-relied  on  TB  for  a  long  time  and  the  D  has  been  subpar  for  7  years  now.  I  think  for  most  fans  it's  difficult  to  separate  the  coaching  ability  with  the  GM  ability.  I  would  give  BB  a  C-  at  best. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Asher77. Show Asher77's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    I read mention on the "final piece" being missing or the fact that we have drafted alot of "D" in the last 4 years with nothing to show.

    I think both the final piece and something to show are coming out in the next 3 years.

    Our D is YOUNG, meaning that we do not expect a "D" made of guys drafted in the last 4 years to be good yet. With continuity in the system and there maturity into there mid to upper 20's, yes we expect them to be great.


    The key is drafting these guys, teaching them, then keeping the core in place into there second contracts.


    For this you need patience and financial discipline. I think the Pats have both and it is a good plan.

    You can "rebuild" on one side of the ball while you still have a HOF QB on the other. This is it and a model for how it is done. I don't see how anyone could come up with a better plan. I challange any GM to try to hit on more of the low rd draft picks, or not bow to the pressure of bringing in stop gap FA for big $ that then destroys you down the road.

    I think BB is doing the right thing and doing it the right way.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Asher77. Show Asher77's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : Team's don't "rebuild" while they have the elite QB. They "rebuild" after they're gone. See - Colts, right now. What they do is "replenish". But queenie doesn't even get that.
    Posted by BabeParilli


    So you say that the word "rebuild" means by defenition:

    Find a new QB who can play the game at a pro bowl level.

    This really tells me alot into all the posts of yours I have read.
    The game of football is not only about ONE guy. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from sml1210. Show sml1210's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    Babe and I disagree on BB's performance as GM.  I consider him to be better than most of the other NFL GMs; Babe does not.  Babe attributes the team's success over the years to Brady's presence more than anything else.  I consider Brady to be a great QB but not the reason the team wins more than it loses year in, year out. In the final analysis, we'll not know until Brady decides to pull the plug how well prepared the team is for his departure.  This will be a strong indicator but not the final determinant in my judgment.  And since Babe and I have been down this road before I'll not paste in any of the several links from independent observers that speak to BBs credentials as a GM over the long haul.  He will no doubt post that he has debunked them but I really shouldn't presume to post/speak for him; I'm merely anticipating his reply should he choose to do so.
    Posted by ATJ


    Do the math on BB's record as a HC without Brady as his quarterback. You really don't have to wait until Brady retires.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : So you say that the word "rebuild" means by defenition: Find a new QB who can play the game at a pro bowl level. This really tells me alot into all the posts of yours I have read. The game of football is not only about ONE guy. 
    Posted by Asher77


    I say, that a team who is fortunate enough to have one of the few elite QBs, and then loses that asset, is rebuilding when they transition from that, not while they have that asset. Another team, without such a key cog might be rebuilding when there D gets old for example, if that was their forte.

    Look around you. I don't see anybody winning SBs without at least a second tier elite QB. So, yeah, it's a team thing, but without the great QB nobody is getting it done.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    "Zeitgeist": if you'd give Belichick a C-minus grade as a GM I'd like to know which NFL GMs deserve grades of B or better.

    Who are they?

    Polian? Who won a single (officiating-aided) Super Bowl in his entire career with 4 teams before presiding over the shockingly rapid decline of the Colts?

    Newsome? Who's won a single Super Bowl in 15+ years and still hasn't been able to solve Baltimore's QB problems over the last decade?

    AJ Smith? Who's never even been to a Super Bowl?

    I grant that an argument could be made for the front offices of the Giants, Packers and Steelers being on a par with or better than the Patriots' front office given their more recent success in going to and winning Super Bowls.

    But even if all three of those GMs/organizations are better than Belichick and the Pats, that would still rank BB 4th overall in the NFL as a GM, would it not?

    Even though the Pats haven't won a Super Bowl since 2004, they've appeared in and come agonizingly close to winning two others, and they haven't had a single losing season since 2000, a claim that no other NFL team can make.

    OK, fine, the defense has allowed the GW touchdown drive in the last two Super Bowl losses. I understand that...of course, if their $10 million cornerback catches a ball thrown right to him in the final 2 minutes of Super Bowl XLII, that drive would have been over before it started--the talent on defense was there that night, but the game-clinching play was not made by the highest-paid defender on the team.

    In the last Super Bowl the defense played very well. The offense failed to finish off the game despite having more than one chance to do so. Rip the D for giving up the winning TD drive late in the game if you must, but also realize that not having Andre Carter on the field that night was a big loss. Maybe he gets to Eli and sacks him on the 38-yard pass play to Manningham?

    Key injuries coming back to bite them in big games, in fact, have been a common theme in some of the Pats' tougher post-season losses over the past several years.

    Luck is a big factor in the NFL these days, bigger than it's ever been because of the close talent gaps between teams due to the salary cap and free agency.

    I mean, the Giants don't even make the playoffs in 2011 if the refs don't make that bizarre "Victor Cruz gave himself up before fumbling" call in their last-minute win over Arizona back in the regular season. Talk about good fortune! Sometimes the difference between winning it all and missing the playoffs entirely is that razor-thin these days.

    Really man....a C-minus???
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : So you say that the word "rebuild" means by defenition: Find a new QB who can play the game at a pro bowl level. This really tells me alot into all the posts of yours I have read. The game of football is not only about ONE guy. 
    Posted by Asher77


    I think the point is that if you have an elite QB you're not in "rebuilding' mode per say, rather the franchise QB makes it so you don't have to rebuild because it is such an important key component of the roster that makes so many people better. Realistically football is not like the NBA or NHL - NFL rosters are so large and fluid that teams appear to be rebuilding every single year (do to injury and free agency), however if you have a great QB it eliminates many of the pains that this may cause.
     
    How many times does a team come out of nowhere to place themselves in the playoffs? It happens more often in football than many other sports. In my opinion it's because NFL rosters can change so much over one off season...if you have a great QB you increase the likelihood that your off season moves will work out better for you.  
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Asher77. Show Asher77's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : I say, that a team who is fortunate enough to have one of the few elite QBs, and then loses that asset, is rebuilding when they transition from that, not while they have that asset. Another team, without such a key cog might be rebuilding when there D gets old for example, if that was their forte. Look around you. I don't see anybody winning SBs without at least a second tier elite QB. So, yeah, it's a team thing, but without the great QB nobody is getting it done.
    Posted by BabeParilli



    I say when they lose that asset they are in trouble.

    Rebuilding for me is when the roster has a certain % of turnover in say a 3 year period regardless of position ect.. You can look at offense and defense as seperate entities when validating that turnover percentage. I don't know what that % would be for the Pats but with the crazy changes we had these last years on the defensive side of the ball I think we qualify.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : Do the math on BB's record as a HC without Brady as his quarterback. You really don't have to wait until Brady retires.
    Posted by sml1210


    Not really a good measure.  BB, when he came to the Pats as HC, had a more well-developed skill set in virtually every area than what he had in Cleveland.  The one year after his first year here where he did not have Brady, 2008, he had an 11-5 record.  Not much of a yardstick since it was only one year, I will admit.  Really need to see what happens after Brady hangs it up and then probably won't be able to assess for a couple of years.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Asher77. Show Asher77's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : I think the point is that if you have an elite QB you're not in "rebuilding' mode per say, rather the franchise QB makes it so you don't have to rebuild because it is such an important key component of the roster that makes so many people better. Realistically football is not like the NBA or NHL - NFL rosters are so large and fluid that teams appear to be rebuilding every single year (do to injury and free agency), however if you have a great QB it eliminates many of the pains that this may cause.   How many times does a team come out of nowhere to place themselves in the playoffs? It happens more often in football than many other sports. In my opinion it's because NFL rosters can change so much over one off season...if you have a great QB you increase the likelihood that your off season moves will work out better for you.  
    Posted by mthurl



    rebuilding mode I think is being misapplied to mean a franchise is in bad shape because the players are not good enough to win so they better go find new ones.
    Yes the QB hides alot of warts and is the key cog.

    rebuilding, as I see it, is when you have to change over the roster for a certain reason and the new guys needing to be trained in your scheme are so numerous it limits your play calling ect..and consumes alot of coaching resources in fundamental applications.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    He's a forkin' phenomenal GM. He's phenomenally GM'd our way to the worst rated D in our history. Bravo. There's just so many wrong things you've said here I don't know where to start. So I won't. Thanks for your vote.
    Posted by BabeParilli

    The Giants just won the super bowl with the worst rated D in their history.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN. Show COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    hey with jets setting the bar so low.. let's see bb would have read the tebow contract forst before announcing anything TWO days later, after the physical and the interview and so forth!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : Not really a good measure.  BB, when he came to the Pats as HC, had a more well-developed skill set in virtually every area than what he had in Cleveland.  The one year after his first year here where he did not have Brady, 2008, he had an 11-5 record.  Not much of a yardstick since it was only one year, I will admit.  Really need to see what happens after Brady hangs it up and then probably won't be able to assess for a couple of years.
    Posted by ATJ



    I suspect BB will still be competitive after Brady goes. By that I mean in the mix for a playoff spot. But now the playoff spot is a virtual guarantee and top seed is likely. That will be the difference, or worse.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: How good as GM is BB?

    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB?:
    In Response to Re: How good as GM is BB? : The Giants just won the super bowl with the worst rated D in their history.
    Posted by digger0862



    Not as low rated as ours.
     
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