How Good is Tom Brady?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from freediro. Show freediro's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]there should be a separate hall of fame just dedicated to brady and perhaps jerry rice and LT. just seems a bit demeaning to his legacy to put him in with the michael irvings, montanas, bradshaws and even peyton manning! 
    Posted by KOOLAID-CONTRARIAN[/QUOTE]
    I hope you don't mean Ladainian Tomlinson, because that guy isn't even in the same league as Brady and Rice. Bradshaw is overrated, but Montana was an amazing QB. Brady wins it this year and I think he is easily the best QB ever. Brady could retire with 5 SB rings and that could almost put him in the debate for best football player of all time. I am just enjoying what Brady delivers us year in and year out, but this one feels really special, something that will define him and this team. Who knows what his legacy will be once he retires.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from qball369. Show qball369's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]Answer = Hall of Famer.  One of the best.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    Here is where I am compelled to agree with you UD - as much as it hurts - I have never been a big fan of the "who is the best ever debate" - all sports evolve over time - there is no way to compare players to players from the past because the game, and many of its rules are so different

    I think a more relevant debate is : who is/was the best QB of their era? - the Brady/Manning debate is now is no different then the Montana/Marino debates of the past

    UD - I am sure you won't be surprised when I say I vote Montana over Marino - for all of the same reasons I vote Brady over Manning

    UD- However - you may be surprised when I tell you that if I was forced to name the best ever out of Montana or Brady I would, without hesitation, vote Montana every time - Montana ( running Bill Walsh's West Coast offense) revolutionized offensive play  - and the QB position - Brady is a Montana clone - I am sure he would tell you the same - and the best ever nod has to go to the guy who did it first


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady? : No they arent. Montana is the best to ever play the game. When Brady retires, the debate will become closer, but right now, Brady is not as good as Montana was
    Posted by screw-cindy-and-ovie[/QUOTE]
     

    I have stated my case here many times as to why this is not really as definitive as you claim, and it centers around the idea of pre cap and cap era degree of difficulties.

    It is beyond clear at this point the pre 1993 era was easier than 1993-Present, especially the last 10 years, where teams are now fully under the cap process trying to balance contracts and keep/sign players.

    If Brady wins another, he surpasses Montana.

    Right now, we can call them even to be fair to Montana. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady? : Here is where I am compelled to agree with you UD - as much as it hurts - I have never been a big fan of the "who is the best ever debate" - all sports evolve over time - there is no way to compare players to players from the past because the game, and many of its rules are so different I think a more relevant debate is : who is/was the best QB of their era? - the Brady/Manning debate is now is no different then the Montana/Marino debates of the past UD - I am sure you won't be surprised when I say I vote Montana over Marino - for all of the same reasons I vote Brady over Manning UD- However - you may be surprised when I tell you that if I was forced to name the best ever out of Montana or Brady I would, without hesitation, vote Montana every time - Montana ( running Bill Walsh's West Coast offense) revolutionized offensive play  - and the QB position - Brady is a Montana clone - I am sure he would tell you the same - and the best ever nod has to go to the guy who did it first
    Posted by qball369[/QUOTE]

    Not really true.  Air Coryell started that offense and Walsh had it at Cincy with Kenny Anderson, picked it up more so while in SD for a year in 1976, tinkered with it with Stanford before going to SF in 1979.   Anderson just so happened to have the highest compl% of all time, if I am not mistaken.   Drew Brees tied this last year.  (70.6%).

    West Coast offense was started then and perfected with Montana by Walsh.

    Brady actually runs a far more complex offense here, as a hybrid West Coast offense, and obviously now with far more personnel to help train and with 3 different coordinators.

    Degree of difficulty alone illustrates how mindblowing Brady's continued greatness is.

    By age 33, Montana was nowhere near this level.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw. Show Philskiw's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    I agree with the comment that if Brady wins one more SB and or gets the MVP in it, this debate is over.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from steelerjim58. Show steelerjim58's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]brady didnt' have the talent around him montana had.  young looked good using that same talent.  therefor brady better
    Posted by ssmilloy36[/QUOTE]

    You all can't seem to get past this "he doesn't have the talent around him" argument.  I have got to ask, do the recievers and running backs that have played for the patriots since brady has been qb, only accomplish what they do simply because he is the qb?  Did troy brown catch a 100 balls only because brady was the one throwing the pass?  Does welker catch all those 4 yard passes only because brady is throwing the ball?  Did faulk turn all those screen passes into 15-20 yard gains because brady was the one throwing the long handoff? 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady? : No they arent. Montana is the best to ever play the game. When Brady retires, the debate will become closer, but right now, Brady is not as good as Montana was
    Posted by screw-cindy-and-ovie[/QUOTE]

    Other than rings... what quantifiable things can you say make Montana the better QB?  One given is the teams on which Montana played were some of the greatest in NFL history.  Did Montana lead a team of "no names" to SB wins?  How may Pro-Bowlers did Montana have the pleasure of playing with during his career versus Brady?  Are we seeing more of an anti-Pats bias for folks to not place Brady on the same pedestal as Montana? Just asking questions here.

    When all is said and done, no matter whose corner you are in, this is a subjective debate and there will never be a consensus.. just be happy we Pats fans have a QB who is in the conversation as "one of the best EVER to play the game.".
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from screw-cindy-and-ovie. Show screw-cindy-and-ovie's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    This is why this debate is stupid. Why do pats fans always point to super bowls in the evaluation of QB's. Super Bowl victories are TEAM accomplishments. Brady has never won 3 super bowls by himself.

    IMO, Brady is top 10, maybe even top 5, but defenately not the best ever.

    Montana, Marino, and Elway are the 3 best quarterbacks of all time. I would rank brady somewhere between 4 and 6


    PS, Brady is slightly better than manning IMO, but it has nothing to do with super bowls. Those are TEAM accomplishments, not individual
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]This is why this debate is stupid. Why do pats fans always point to super bowls in the evaluation of QB's. Super Bowl victories are TEAM accomplishments. Brady has never won 3 super bowls by himself. IMO, Brady is top 10, maybe even top 5, but defenately not the best ever. Montana, Marino, and Elway are the 3 best quarterbacks of all time. I would rank brady somewhere between 4 and 6 PS, Brady is slightly better than manning IMO, but it has nothing to do with super bowls. Those are TEAM accomplishments, not individual
    Posted by screw-cindy-and-ovie[/QUOTE]

    Stats are meaningless. Elway's stats are mediocre anyway, and Marino has gargantuan stats because of the offense he played, having Mark Clayton, Irving Fryar, and mark Duper certainly help pad your resume. Marino was a failure when it counted. Brady has led two last minute SB winning drives -- and has record to go toe to toe with anyone.  

    Stats, them selves, are TEAM accomplishments too. 


    Easy as that. 

    Otherwise you have to say silly things like Emmitt Smith is the greatest runner ever, when he likely isn't even top five.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    I cannot believe someone tried just to state that Elway is one of the 3 greatest QBs of all time.  That's one of the funniest things I have ever read here.

    Elway was 1/10the the leader Brady is.  A whiny crybaby who needed cap swindling to get his ego two SBs.

    Elway barely cracks my top 10.  He always had an excuse, every single time.  He blamed Dan Reeves in Denver and was never a winner.  Elway set the standard for making sure a SB was a blow out by the 2nd quarter. He'd lead  a series of 3 and outs and put his defense into short fields. 

    Go look at his SB QB Ratings. Only Ben Roethlisberger was worse.

    Top 10:

    1.  Brady
    2.  Montana
    3.  Graham
    4.  Unitas
    5.  Manning
    6.  Baugh
    7.  Marino
    8.  Starr
    9.  Luckman
    10. Favre

    These rankings reflect wins, leadership, context in the era, stats and championship rings.

    Bradshaw won 4 SBs, but compare his supporting offensive talent (Hall of Famers and pre cap era) to Brady's (Only Moss is a HOF around Brady and cap era). Compare Brady's stats to Bradshaw's.   Brady destroys Bradshaw in the stats department. 

    Look at Brady's records.  Brady is clearly top 3-5, and arguably 1, if he wins another SB.

    Bradshaw is more like 10-15 all time in there with Elway, Steve Young, Staubach, etc.

    I can't stand Favre, but he has to go somewhere near 10 for his production and the one ring.

    If Marino had a running game, he would have gotten a ring.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]This is why this debate is stupid. ... Montana, Marino, and Elway are the 3 best quarterbacks of all time.
    Posted by screw-cindy-and-ovie[/QUOTE]
    OK.. so, what makes Montana, Marino and Elway be your top three?  Other than stats, what has Marino accomplished as a team leader?  Montana and Elway have SB rings but no stats. per se.  Seems you have placed Marino over Brady for stats?  Where do your top three put QBs like Unitas, Starr, Favre and others in the mix?  Are you more of a "modern era" choser than the overall league history?  Pre and post merger, perhaps?  2 of your top three are known for SB achievements while Marino is the "former" stats leader until Favre came along.  So, if you have Marino over Favre, if not for stats, then what?  Favre has a ring and Marino not. 

    As I have always pointed out, as have you with the "stupid" comment, such discussions are very subjective, come with a hint of personal opinion which can be clouded by a dislike for a player or the team on which they played.  It is a team game, for which, like the president of the US in good times, when you are the QB of the SB winning team, you are deemed the "leader" of that team and the success is sometimes credited to that "leader" right or wrong.   
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    I think it's a bit too early to say best ever.  His unfinished resumee may turn out to be the best but not yet.  My personal opinion is that what he has done with limited weapons shows him to be the best, but it will take another SB to prove himself a peer of Montana.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from lafnboy. Show lafnboy's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    that's right cindy, football is a team game from the first snap to the last...this point makes your argument moot....
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

         Here's a great article on how Tom Brady has evolved as a team leader: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/14/sports/football/14brady.html?_r=1&ref=football
     
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    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

         Members of the Giants team that upset the Pats in the 2007 season SB say that, "...Brady's toughness in underrated...we kept hitting him and he kept getting up (for more). Former G-men LB Antonio Pierce also remarked on the vile words being directed at Brady from some of the Jets players...basically saying that it's a mistake to further motivate the Pats' QB...that what the Jets' have been saying about him appears to have crossed the line. He also expects the Pats to win, in a competitive game: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/jets/super_bowl_giants_know_how_to_beat_8yLyYfiiOcrjFEFObLTmQK
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Haskinshall. Show Haskinshall's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    He ist the best, no doubt about it.
    I always had the tendency to pick Peyton Manning over Brady, before I read this article from an Indianapolis sports-writer, which was published in a thread about this very topic a couple of months ago. This article highlights in a very unbiased and very clear way, why Tom Brady simply is better than Peyton Manning.
    The Jets will get a feeling for that this weekend !!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]He ist the best, no doubt about it. I always had the tendency to pick Peyton Manning over Brady, before I read this article from an Indianapolis sports-writer, which was published in a thread about this very topic a couple of months ago. This article highlights in a very unbiased and very clear way, why Tom Brady simply is better than Peyton Manning. The Jets will get a feeling for that this weekend !!
    Posted by Haskinshall[/QUOTE]
    except that the writer you mention is paid to be controversial and biased.  Your first tendency was correct.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady? : No they arent. Montana is the best to ever play the game. When Brady retires, the debate will become closer, but right now, Brady is not as good as Montana was
    Posted by screw-cindy-and-ovie[/QUOTE]

    You may be right, however one mathematical reality exists - TB has the chance to tie Montana at 4 SBs, and would have played in a 5th.  Also, TB may very well play in more than one SB.  I agree with your premise - Montana is a four time SB champ with 3 SB MVPs on his resume - best ever, seasonal statistics be darned.  BUT - TB can certainly reach AND surpass Montana's achievements.  If so, he'd have to be considered the best. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    He has a legitimate chance to be the best all time if he wins another Super Bowl, his stats won't reach Manning's, but he'll pass most others. He has done more with less for a decade and he's done it in terrible weather conditions (which he gets very little credit for nationally). He has played; hurt, injurred and has made a remarkable come back from a devastating knee injury. The guy has never had bad games back to back or ever gone through a stretch were his play was questioned (I can't think of any other QB that has ever done that)...they all have had times in their careers were they were being questioned; Manning (this year), Elway, Montana, Young, Favre, Marino, and so on. This guy really has never had a bad stretch. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from bmonty10. Show bmonty10's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    Could not have happened to a more arrogant fan base.  Tom Brady proved again that he is a product of the system. Did he even throw a ball over 10 yards down the field? Best Ever?  Not even the best on the field against the lowly Jets and Sanchez.  And the 1 seed at home after the bye?  Can you say Choke Choke Choke.  If you live in a glass house.....
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from CHUBBIE99. Show CHUBBIE99's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]Best Ever. 
    Posted by tcal2-[/QUOTE]
    Stop saying that it hurts. HEs not even near the best cant move no comebacks. only time that that guy wins the big game is when he has the number 1 or 2 defence. Other wise avg at best. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from xjz3cf5. Show xjz3cf5's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    Under pressure....= average

    With time....= unbeatable.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rerun85. Show Rerun85's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    Brady's good enough to win more superbowls but he just needs a little more help than he needed in the past. He's the last guy we have to worry about.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]brady didnt' have the talent around him montana had.  young looked good using that same talent.  therefor brady better
    Posted by ssmilloy36[/QUOTE]

    Oh Jeez.  Tom Brady has exactly the players the pats wanted.  Welker, Branch, Three stud TE's, and a strong RB corps. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: How Good is Tom Brady?

    In Response to Re: How Good is Tom Brady?:
    [QUOTE]Under pressure....= average With time....= unbeatable.
    Posted by xjz3cf5[/QUOTE]

    Brady had plenty of time last night. 
     

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