In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:



this is a great post... because it is exactly what they do...so to speak... and protoges and other teams have tried to copy it... see mangenius, mcdaniel, kc, and now atlanta...some with success some not so much...  but they are all missing that special ingrediant to make it all go....   hopefully he is really enjoying himself and doesnt see a need to change anything anytime soon...

Don't turn the ball over; force some turnovers and keep Brady off the field as long as possible. This is why San Diego would be a scary opponent with Tolbert running the ball; same goes with Atlanta and Turner. Get Brady out of the pocket or sack him. It's proven that if Brady gets 3.5 seconds in the pocket your team will get torched all day long. People point to the 2007 Giants as the blue print to beat the Pats, but a) you need the personel to pull it off b) just because it worked against the 07 Pats doesn't necessarily mean it will work on the 2010 Pats; a few screens mixed in with some traps and all of sudden you are facing the 2010 Pats offense not the 07 offense. Short hitches and slants are tough to defend and the Pats current offense is more balanced.

You can't beat the Pats!

@ Paul_K: Build a diverse group of 53 players.  Get regular BJGE backs and Woodheads.  Get huge blocking TEs like Crumpler and Gronk, who can really catch.  Get speedballs like Tate and Price.  Get guys with lateral acceleration like Welker and Edelman.  Don't undersell experience but do look for bargains (Branch).  Get seriously strong and mobile pulling guards who play the pass rush.  On defense get some huge run-stopping linemen and some rush specialists too.  Get a big nickel back.  Draft really competent guys in the back seven.  Get guys with gorilla arms..... 

This is not how BB built the team it is what he has now. There are a few teams out there with top talent TE's and you need a better than average O-Line to open the holes for the likes of BJGE - never mind a guy like Peterson.

More teams should probably go small/speedy at WR - but most still favor the big guys. This is also true of the CB's...

Overall, the Pats are strong in the trenches especially now that Mankins is back.

Even in 2011, the Pats need to focus on rebuilding the O and D lines. Ty Warren, Gerrard Warren, Stephen Neal, Matt Light, Logan Mankins could all be gone....

Accuse them of cheating - just ask John Tomase!

Great, thoughtful, detailed posts by P-mike, patsman2, patslifer, artistformerlynick, Paul-K, chrisakawoody, Laz and Bellino.

The only thing I can add is that anyone who attempts to beat the Pats cannot mentally force themselves to be in a shootout or psychologically force themselves to score as many points as the Pats. Sanchez and Cutler both lost their mental edge, trying to keep up with the Pats and forced things and thus made a lot of mistakes that turned into turnovers. Not only did the Pats beat them but they beat themselves badly.  Of course, this is easier said than done.

Also, what scares me is how confident we are as fans that the Pats cannot be beat. If the team begins to feel as we they will be in trouble. A disciplined smash mouth 2 pronged running attack like Jacobs and Bradshaw of the Giants or Charles and Jones of the Chiefs could inflict some damage.

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:

They we're not off but simply got beat. I just tell it the way it is. Just like they handed Sexy Rexy is head on a platter for his smarmy remarks.

Forfeit is the correct answer to this.  I wouldn't want me and my team to get embarrassed.

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:

Better question. If they ever meet, how do the Sox beat the Phillies?

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:

That was the line of the year. Better yet, 'pride goeth before destruction and the haughty spirit before the fall'.

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:

But beware of the other 5%.

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:

I believe that is the correct formula. Even better with an occasional 4-3 with a blitzing LB up the middle.

Snazzy... the Pats were completely flat against the Browns! Gronkowski who's been really reliable had a terrible game, mental errors on special teams, fumbles, just a flat out BAD game!

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:


ALL:

~First, as a quick change too my original post on the page, I forget to make the correction to whom was NE's NT in that Browns game; It wasn't Gerrard Warren @ NT, but Myron Pryor @ 6'1 and 310lbs at NT with G Warren/B Deadrick on the weakside and V Wilfork on the strongside of the 3 man D-Line.  Point is, for the sake of not having enough adequate sized 3-4 DEs, in the sake of attempting to collapse the oppossing Offense's pocket on at least 1 side of the offense, BB ended up badly outbalancing his Defense vs the power running game  on that weakside-weakside-center of his Defensive unit...  Yet, by the very following week, by reshifting VW to NT again, repositioning his 2 ILBs-standard SILB spot moved to WILB, while standard WILB spot moved to SILB, AND even goin' 1 further by shifting his 2 CBs too, the far more physical McCourty moved to weakside side of the Defense (except on certain passing plays) while the far less physical D Butler/K Arrington tandem goes to strongside (with NE's best coverage Safety helping their side out), New England DID correct this...

I absolutely and completely guarentee you ALL, that IF NE replayed the game TO-day, it would be an amazingly different outcome in light of PRECISELY how Belichick perfectly & pretty ingeniously RE-balanced his Defensive alignment whilst still not forsaking other aspects of NE's Defensive game (like passing d).  
     See prophet, NE did lose that game, But it was BECAUSE NE initially fell behind & STILL had no counter to Cleveland moving up and down the field while chewing great time off the clock and wearing down NE's Defense...  Thus, NE really DID become frustrated attempting to play from a 2 score deficit from the time when the opening 1st quarter of the game wasn't yet complete... 

There ya go...

Oh, Ya wanna BEAT NE, right?
SEE then, "The Art of War." 
     From a simple tactician's standpoint, You'd beat NE in the same way you'd wanna beat ANY extremely highly successful opponent your facing:  Gameplan EVERYthing ya got into hoping to find their BEST weakness.  Then, exploit it; Exploit RIGHT FROM Second #1...THIS is your ONLY hope.  Do NOT in any way, shape OR form, SAVE your great gameplan for the critical deciding moment of the battle...  That'll work when facing almost EVERY Single other opponent...but NOT an extremely successful opponent, whom has tasted victory & winning so very often now.  It will not work on facing the current NE Patriots.  To beat NE right now, you'd have ta hit 'em with exactness, preciseness, and surgical precision from again, SECOND #1...  Bloody 'em, that's all ya gotta do; Just inflict ANY sorta wound on them...  You won't get a total victory quick...but you're not lookin' for that.  Your lookin' simply to get an early and just adequate enough lead...a small piercing wound...  Then finally, you place Each & ALL your subsequent strength into the rest of the battle, Towards doing 1 thing ONLY:  Holding On.  Prevent, Prevent, Prevent...your 1 hope.  Your single hope is to wound them from instant 1, then playing smashmouth physical after that; Points don't matter...your 1 prayer is that IF you offensively wound this opponent UNused to losing as early as you can, then just hangin' on  by placin' all your physical might onto playin' tough, center balanced defensively oriented smash-smash-smash, hit everyone in sight, care not about adding to that lead, care more about simply smashing into everyone (then stepping on them while on the ground, then probably jumping into the pile as well, and biting them, too)...  YOUR ONE GOAL: After that surgically precise wounding...?  Frustrate them.  Hopefully they'll wear down, make d#mb moves, or even some errors in their game...

~~~~

~So there ya have it ALL:  Laz, as usual, has solved the current problem with ingeniousness...  I've successfully gone about figuring out the manner that You'd like to go about facing AND beating, The NE Patriots.  
  So alright, As to the exact numbers, elementals, players, plays, and even basic gameday, well-Everything...Let someone else figure that stuff out.  In my mind, it's incidental...  Shoot, I ain't doin' ALL the work, And CERTAINLY none of the dirty work (that's what I tell my job interviewer too).  Jesus, are You CRAZY!?!  I'm a FREAKIN' Genius, like Einstein...I work on problem solving & fantastic theories...Krist almighty, let someone else actually prove the st#pid thing or put it to practical or actual use=NOT My Job.  I don't clean toilets people...I CAN give you the very Best method on Planet Earth on How You'd Go About cleaning and facing the toilet challenge...  BUT "Cleanin' 'Em", hahah ahhh, Ya lol,...ain't happenin', not in this lifetime.  That's for indentured servants & m#rons; I simply offer advice folks...And It IS and will prove TO BE, the very best advice alive...  Here's the equation fellas And it IS correct, betch're life on it...ya can take the time to actually solve it by putting the precise numbers in it, I mean I don't really care 1 way or another personally- I'm Right, I Know it, alll that matters.  Ya wanna DEFINATELY prove it in practice?  Fine, I don't give a sh#t...ta me, I just look at it as a waste'a time, when I already know it's correct.  

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:


Remember that Faulk went down early after a cheep shot to the leg. As Brady's safety valve getting him out was esential to the Giants plan.

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:


See, THIS is exactly what I'm talkin' about here (previous post)... 
     From The NY Giants perspective:  IF essential to your Giants Defensive Gameplan IS-Having your DEs go wide around the ends, while sending your 2 interior DTs spearheading like demons in he!! by shootin' the gaps through the interior of the Patriots's Offensive Line, without any hesitancy or care in the world that NE will, can, or has the ability to counter this gameplan by the standard technique of using an RB in the running game, who can keep those spearheading DTs even minorly honest in their approach of gap-shooting, BY having ANY decent RB who can make it through the interior of the now vacant D-Line by their aggressiveness to simply collapse the passing pocket when that RB either runs past them inside, or has the hands to exploit a small screen pass from their vacated D-center area...So, EACH & ALL of NE's good-sized interior bull-rushing RBs are injured within '07 (F Taylor/S Morris), and the ONLY 1 whom can somewhat offer a counter to these inside spearheading and pocket collapsing 4-3 DTs, is K Faulk-whom doesn't get it done with the size-skills that Morris/Taylor use, BUT can get it minorly countered with his screen passing abilities, good pass-block protecting, And whom can also get it certainly done with his fantastic field-vision when it comes to hitting the open hole in the O-Line, not with bulk or power, but with preciseness, exactness, and quickness in his N/S quick, excellent hole vision. 
     .....So You NEED to get someone like Kevin Faulk outta the game.....
     .....Soooo, NE can put an absolute hesitating, dancing, p#ssy-of-an-interior-rushing (with his total lack of field vision), Runningback, like one-Lawrence Maroney, INTO the game.  Because really lmao, Maroney was meager at screens, but simply a god awful interior rushing prescence.
 

Well, well done NY...  NEED: To collapse the passing pocket and get to Tom Brady...WORRY: Kevin Faulk can be used to exploit your defensive gameplan, the OTHER way.   So, IF NE's best strength is their passing game through Brady, and their best only even somewhat exploitable weakness is their running game using certain RBs in specific areas (Faulk on screens, quick cuts inside; Maroney...well, nowhere really).  RESULT: Get Kevin Faulk O-U-T of the game, so NE HAS to use LM's specific gameskill set (sweeps, outside speed, patiently waiting for hole development)-which'll perfectly benefit you here (NYG), IN-TO the game.


~If then, it was essential that Kevin Faulk HAD to come outta the game, Personally I just woulda showed up at his house the day before, and killed him...but hey, I'm a brute really.  
 But yea, I guess their way worked too; My method, it woulda worked just as fine though.  None of us should be comin' away thinkin' 1 method is any better than the other method, really.  My Way?  It woulda got the job accomplished just the same, ya know? 
 

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:
Nice Post. I remember when the talking heads where saying welker is the pats running game and thinking no team has won the sb without a running game so just shut up.

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:


wtg and ALL:


As usual, the critics are only somewhat intelligent...I think that's a basic rule to be any form of critic, editorialist, and/or analyst=Just over the Intelligence Bell of the Learning Curve...no further, No further whatsoever-just a tad as the curve is goin' oh so slight onto the just above-average-smart side.

Here?  It too only makes 'em, Smart Enough to come off sounding Totally Smart...  NE DOES and HAS used Welker as a basic form of the running game...YET, I really don't think it's some form of Brilliant and above all, Purposeful Tactics.  It's brilliant Bill Belichick, that's for certain...  NO Coach is as good as Bill Belichick imho, when it comes to BOTH seeing his weaknesses and the current things he is lacking, AND using his strengths that he DOES have at his disposal, in order to correct his problems 1 way or another...WHATever it is.  Honestly, I bet IF Bill Belichick didn't have any WRs, RBs, QB, LBs, or Safeties on Defense/Offense.  Say BB simply had 22 nosetackles, 22O-Linemen, and a punt returner=BB'd end up playin' some ingenious form of Prevent Defense, while on Offense Belichick only had 22 340lb Offensive Linemen, So He'd simply end up Totally RE-Defining what's possible on kick-offs and punt returns with his 1 single returner...

In otherwords...NE's use of Wes Welker was and has been PRECISELY this...A Weakness countered by A Strength=Nothing More.  Nothing about, the analysts sayin', "Wes Welker is NOW The Patriots Running Game, good planning."  Blah-blah-blah.  MANY Variants involved:  NE's Injury Conditions & Aging involved within their decent RBs (ones who've been working-S Morris, F Taylor, Faulk's age, Dillon retired, Maroney's inadequcy, BJGE not developing quick in his first 2 seasons)-NE had a TOTAL lack of having any good Running Game for awhile;  ALSO, Certain things made it conducive to relying on Welker:  Current NFL League by-laws on pass-interfernce vs eligible receivers (Current Rule: Ya can't hit QBs or WRs...ever); ALSO, NE had, like all teams, somewhat forsaken certain personell areas (after they got injured or aged & retired &/or just had enough draft picks and resources in free agency to target other aspects for the timebeing)-So certain areas get rebuilt and are strengths at certain times while certain areas get rebuilt at later times and aren't as strong. 

Example:  NE had an aging O-Line and what it WAS originally built for, & what required less youth and strength to do, Was pass-protection OVER Running Strength=An Aged & smaller, more agile & built to protect Brady- O-Line, That by far the 1 thing it could still do better than run-block, WAS pass-block...  ZERO TEs (for a few years), ZERO good RBs, aging smaller O-Line...Ya counter the things your lacking or are weak at, with the things you are strong at...just as BB went to the verticle game with Moss, and the short passing game w/ Welker BOTH as a lack for having a decent #2 possession receiver/Or good TE (just Moss's deep ball) AND for the lack of a running game (just Welker in slot).   


~NOTHING about Bill Belichick does it this way, or that way...  GARBAGE, Total B#llsh#t.  Bill Belichick improvises and compromises, Nothing More.  Counter Weaknesses you have at 1 single given time, With Strengths you currently have at 1 single given time.  Then: Do it again...and again and again and again.  Whoever does this the best & the quickest, Becomes successful.  BB's fantastic. 

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:

So, why don't we see teams attempt to do this EVERY game?  Could it be the Pats do the BEST job adjusting and nullify these tactics?  One would think the Jets and Bears, two teams with highly rated defenses, would have, somehow, attempted these tactics.  Somewhere in the bowels of opponent defensive coaches they seem to know these tactics are short lived and need something that can last an entire game, a solution yet to be found.

Also, here is the other problem... the Patriots D is improving immensely week by week.  How about that for a nightmare?  A team whose young D is getting better each week and the offense is too!!

the SB game would've been different now that we have Vollmer at RT and 3 TEs, we can keep those blitzer honest with short quick passes, that's what happen to these high bilitzing team that we beat. I honestly want to see Pats go against the Rams, our team vs Spagnoulu's defensive schemes, we always struggled going against the Rams.

I think Brady said it best, the best defense is 4 man rush and man to man coverage. That's if you have the right personel.

In Response to Re: How Would You Beat the Pats?:


I thought the hypothetical specifically said "named coach"

If I happened across the $5-10 billion in base capital to buy a team, or if I was named football godfather like Mike Holmgren, then I'd be in business.