http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

     

    Where I strongly disagree with you is that this offense is short on talent. That is something I will never be able to understand. 

     




     

     I don't think as a whole the offense is short on talent but I think you have to drill down and looks a certain areas.

    WR specifically the x and z receivers. You would have to admit this has been an issue for a while.

    I think Lloyd filled this role pretty darned well all things considering. 80 catches for 1k yards and a few tds playing behind WW Gronk and Hernandez is good contribution.

    I know the O line has been good but you would have to attrbute that some to Scarnecchia.

    The Center and RG are solid but i wouldn't call them talented. Not that they need to have elite talent at every position on the line but Connelly and wendell probably aren't what you would call talented... solid/workman like yes... talented???

    I think anytime you have 2 6ft 8 towers at tackle and a pro bowl G in Mankins your O-line is as talented as any in the LG. Throw in 2 solid C/G's as you say and that is fantastic. O-line might be the strongest positional group on the team.

    Like I said as a whole they should be considered talented... BTW the QB does help hide many deficiencies or lack of talent in many instances.

    Not always....see afc championship home game. And show me which team wouldn't want Gronk Hernandez and WW with a very good RB and a great O-line. Although of course I agree that having Brady helps with everything, but the talent excuse is a weak one imo.




     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

     

    Where I strongly disagree with you is that this offense is short on talent. That is something I will never be able to understand. 

     




     

     I don't think as a whole the offense is short on talent but I think you have to drill down and looks a certain areas.

    WR specifically the x and z receivers. You would have to admit this has been an issue for a while.

    I think Lloyd filled this role pretty darned well all things considering. 80 catches for 1k yards and a few tds playing behind WW Gronk and Hernandez is good contribution.

    I know the O line has been good but you would have to attrbute that some to Scarnecchia.

    The Center and RG are solid but i wouldn't call them talented. Not that they need to have elite talent at every position on the line but Connelly and wendell probably aren't what you would call talented... solid/workman like yes... talented???

    I think anytime you have 2 6ft 8 towers at tackle and a pro bowl G in Mankins your O-line is as talented as any in the LG. Throw in 2 solid C/G's as you say and that is fantastic. O-line might be the strongest positional group on the team.

    Like I said as a whole they should be considered talented... BTW the QB does help hide many deficiencies or lack of talent in many instances.

    Not always....see afc championship home game. And show me which team wouldn't want Gronk Hernandez and WW with a very good RB and a great O-line. Although of course I agree that having Brady helps with everything, but the talent excuse is a weak one imo.

     




     




    you think?

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

     

    on a side note to Prolate, I disagree the play calling has no impact on an a 35 ppg offense that struggles to score over 15 ppg on the biggest stage.

     

    The style of play is more or less the same in the regular season and the postseason.  Your belief rests on a premise that plays that work well in the regular season don't work in the postseason. I don't buy the argument that postseason football is so vastly different from regular season football that a strategy that produces a league leading offense over 16 games is suddenly going to fail because the postseason started.  A much more likely scenario is that (1) youe face teams that give you unfavorable match ups (in which case you have the unhappy choice of continuing to do what you're good at or switching approach and trying something you may not be good at) or (2) that you've lost a key player like Gronk and therefore the offense that got you to the postseason isn't the same offense you're playing with in the playoffs.

     

     

    Also I do not give the defense a pass. However BB's defense historically plays better as the season progresses which has been true the past 3 years of a rebuild. They played pretty well against Eli only giving up 1 td till the last 2 minutes. Seattle sums up my feelings on how the offensive short comings contributed to this last defensive score.

    So the offense hurts the defense, but the defense has no effect on the offense?

    Where I strongly disagree with you is that this offense is short on talent. That is something I will never be able to understand. 

     

    Jri does a nice job of explaining below.  He and I are both season ticket holders and can see the whole field from the stands. I wonder if that makes a difference in how we view things.  We see who's open and not downfield.  Brady is always having to fit passes into tight spaces.  Opposing QBs have acres of open field at times.




     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    And one other thing.  Pezz is right that number of possessions is important.  You need a possession to score.  Because the game is fixed at 60 minutes and because possessions alternate, in games where drives are long there necessarily will be fewer possessions for both teams and therefore fewer chances to score for both teams.  This is the whole reason "ball control" works.  You eat up time on your own drives to reduce the number of possessions--and therefore scoring chances--your opponent's offense gets. That was the Giants' strategy. It used some running, but it also depended heavily on their ability to complete passes for first downs against our weak pass coverage. For the Pats to counter that strategy, they didn't need longer offensive drives, they needed more effective offensive drives resulting in points . . . and they needed some defensive stops earlier in Giant drives to get the ball back to the Pats offense.  The lack of effectiveness on the offense's drives is on the offense.  The lack of defensive stops is on the defense.  It's a team game and issues on both sides of the ball contributed to the loss. 

    And by the way, when a ball control strategy works like it did for the Giants, what you get is a low scoring game, with a smaller point differntial than usual.  So the 20-17 score is expected given the success of the Giants strategy.  Both units should have scored less than normal because the Giants strategy was to reduce scoring --and they succeeded because they executed well on both sides of the ball and we didn't execute so well on either side of the ball. 

     




    Still not accepting the beating LOW FBIQ gave you, huh?

     

    The Giants "strategy was to reduce scoring"? Wow! Really!? What was ours, Prolate? We all can't wait to hear your analysis!

    lol

    My god in heaven. You have to be a lawyer. Have to be.



    I don't see how pointing out that the pass defense was even more atrocious in some regular season games is a beatdown.  The defense playing a bit better doesn't mean it played well or like a championship defense. 

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    Play action passes are the answer to everything.  The safety was a play action pass ...

     

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Play action passes are the answer to everything.  The safety was a play action pass ...

     

     




    Umm, it was the first play and a run game wasn't even attempted to be started yet. How new are you to football?

     

    lol



    They lined up in the exact same formation in the exact same situation that they used in the regular season Giants' game when they ran BjGE.  That's why I'm absolutely sure this was a scripted play signed off on by the master himself, Bill Belichick.

    Giants, by the way, opened in play action in one of the games too. It's not uncommon at all.  With all these years you've been watching football, you'd think you'd know that.  But then, to be fair, I was watching the Pats before you were born.

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

     

     

    on a side note to Prolate, I disagree the play calling has no impact on an a 35 ppg offense that struggles to score over 15 ppg on the biggest stage.

     

    The style of play is more or less the same in the regular season and the postseason.  Your belief rests on a premise that plays that work well in the regular season don't work in the postseason. I don't buy the argument that postseason football is so vastly different from regular season football that a strategy that produces a league leading offense over 16 games is suddenly going to fail because the postseason started.  A much more likely scenario is that (1) youe face teams that give you unfavorable match ups (in which case you have the unhappy choice of continuing to do what you're good at or switching approach and trying something you may not be good at) or (2) that you've lost a key player like Gronk and therefore the offense that got you to the postseason isn't the same offense you're playing with in the playoffs.

     

     

    Also I do not give the defense a pass. However BB's defense historically plays better as the season progresses which has been true the past 3 years of a rebuild. They played pretty well against Eli only giving up 1 td till the last 2 minutes. Seattle sums up my feelings on how the offensive short comings contributed to this last defensive score.

    So the offense hurts the defense, but the defense has no effect on the offense?

    Where I strongly disagree with you is that this offense is short on talent. That is something I will never be able to understand. 

     

    Jri does a nice job of explaining below.  He and I are both season ticket holders and can see the whole field from the stands. I wonder if that makes a difference in how we view things.  We see who's open and not downfield.  Brady is always having to fit passes into tight spaces.  Opposing QBs have acres of open field at times.

     




     

     




     

    Pro, It is interesting to see the contrasts in passing schemes between the Pat's and whoever they are playing.

    From 20,000 feet it looks as though all those short to intermediate routes the Pat's run aren't conducive to opening up big passing lanes.

    On the flip side most opposing teams will run clear outs and  deep crossing patterns opening up tons of space all over the field.

    I think if the Pat's could generate a better pass rush we might see those passing lanes for opposing QB's narrow.

     



    Exactly.  A better rush would limit time for the downfield stuff to develop.  Also, on offense, we don't have the receivers who can do that and, at times, we haven't really had the blocking either. Brady has to throw very fast and accurately.  Mostly, I'm simply amazed at what Brady does in close.  Downfield, the passing game isn't so good, but a lot of that has to do with receivers. Brady looked fine when Stallworth was in for that one play.

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    I seriously can't believe anyone would let the defense off the hook during that Super Bowl. The last drive of that game they did nothing to even slow the Giants down. Nothing. No sacks, no pressure, no coverage...they honestly should of just sent no one out there. We would of at least got the ball back quicker. I've never seen a game where a defense did virtually nothing - the only time we stopped them is when they stopped themselves. I call it the "Let's hope and pray they get a penalty, or fumble a hand off, or over throw a wide open receiver"...I think it's catchy.

    I do think the defense has made strides since then, however I think our defense was totally exposed during that game. Nationallly they were considered to be one of the worst defenses to ever play in a Super Bowl, and they played like it. I don't care that they didn't allow 30 points (or whatever their regular season average was), they did nothing in that game. If we had won that game Brady would of won the MVP easily...certainly no one could of been considered on the defense during that game.

     



    You're sick or never saw those crappier Ds in SBs througout your life. In fact, you clearly didn't.

     

    Indy 2006. Christ, even the '85 Pats were worse. '94 Chargers. 

    Denver 1987 or 1989. Just awful and totally overmatched. Bludgeoned. You simply don't watch football outside the NE area. lol

    2002 Raiders. Old, slow and awful. Not even competitive.

    GB's D was so far worse than NE's in 2011s because of no run D and the turnover rate wasn't there. 

    In 2011, if GB had made it to the SB, is their D considered a better D based on the idea th media likes McCarthy a lot more than BB?

    YEP.

     

     



    God you're so wrong right here..the Chargers defense brought that team to the Super Bowl, where they got shredded by the best offense in the league. The Raiders D at least had a bunch of solid players on there (slow or not). GB's D was no worse than ours...at least they had a pass rusher, a safety and a stud defensive tackle. 85 Pats were better...the Colt's defense was playing very well when their safety returned...very well. The Broncos...yeah they were bad.

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

     

     

     



    So, you think BB told O'Brien and Brady once he saw that field position to run playaction?  It's possible, but this looks an awful lot like you trying to take accountability away from Brady's decision as to HOW he chose to throw that ball away. You think BB is going to micromanage every single play call in every game and interject? If that's the case, why don't BB just call the plays and the team not have an OC?

    Rusty, you don't think that when they script plays the script is variable based on down and distance? I'm sure as part of the game planning all the coaches discussed what they'd do to start the game given the different possible situations they might find themselves in.  BB is famous for his situational approach.  You can't honestly think that a BB coached team decides on one opening play that they'll use regardless of the starting LOS. You're way smarter than that.  

     

    Launching it into no man's land wasn't the best choice.   Period.  

    Actually, I'm not sure brady had a better option once the blocking broke down.  In max protect he only had three receivers (maybe four if BJGE was clear of the LOS) and all were double covered because the Giants dropped seven.  And Brady didn't have time to get out of the pocket after the blocking collapsed.  He really had three choices, all likely to result in a safety.  Stand in and take the sack.  Try to throw out of bounds toward Welker--a difficult and dangerous option which could have been a pick six.  Or heave it down the middle where Branch was sort of headed.  I think he picked the best of those three.  Real problem was the blocking failed in max protect when the Giants were in max coverage!

     

     

    It's pretty sad you were watching the Pats before I was born, because I can tell you right now how our '85 club went to a SB and I certainly know more about this game than you do.

    Believe it or not, even the great Brady can't be thinking a shotgun obsession is enough. He's proven that it isn't.

    Wake me when that fearless and controlled QB returns.

     

     




     

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Play action passes are the answer to everything.  The safety was a play action pass ...

     




    A play action pass on the 1st play of the game from your own 5 yard line against the best pass rush in football knowing that we lost 2 games in a row to them with a THREE TO ONE pass to run ratio is a TERRIBLE PLAY CALL.

    The run needs to be established for the PA to work = fact.

    Sorry about the caps, but I didn't think you could hear me.

    And yes doing the exact same thing in the post season, you did in the regular season against the best defense's in the LG leads to offensive stagnancy, just ask our team.

    Oh wait, you are a season ticket holder, so you already know.

    Hey, I will now take a page from your book.....Maybe you should just go down on the field from your "season ticket holder" seats and just tell BB he doesn't have the right talent. Perhaps he can call Parcells to build his team for him, because as Babe and a few of you are keen on saying, BB only won SB's with the players Parcells drafted....

    Which is wrong btw.

    Lmfao @ you are a season tix holder so you can see the field better and nobody is open so we don't have talent on offense.

    HILARIOUS DUDE...F-ING HILARIOUS

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Play action passes are the answer to everything.  The safety was a play action pass ...

     

     




     

    A play action pass on the 1st play of the game from your own 5 yard line against the best pass rush in football knowing that we lost 2 games in a row to them with a THREE TO ONE pass to run ratio is a TERRIBLE PLAY CALL.

    The run needs to be established for the PA to work = fact.

    Sorry about the caps, but I didn't think you could hear me.

    And yes doing the exact same thing in the post season, you did in the regular season against the best defense's in the LG leads to offensive stagnancy, just ask our team.

    Oh wait, you are a season ticket holder, so you already know.

    Hey, I will now take a page from your book.....Maybe you should just go down on the field from your "season ticket holder" seats and just tell BB he doesn't have the right talent. Perhaps he can call Parcells to build his team for him, because as Babe and a few of you are keen on saying, BB only won SB's with the players Parcells drafted....

    Which is wrong btw.

    Lmfao @ you are a season tix holder so you can see the field better and nobody is open so we don't have talent on offense.

    HILARIOUS DUDE...F-ING HILARIOUS



    Not nearly as funny as you thinking you can call plays better than the Pats coaching staff. 

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    Two coaches who called play action passes on the first play of the game in 2011:  Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin.

    Two coaches, NFL Network ranks as top in the league: Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin.

    Two posters who think calling play action on the first play of the game is stupid: True Champ, Rusty

    Combined Super Bowl rings since 2001, Bill Belichick and Tom Coughlin: 5

    Combined Super Bowl rings since 2001, Rusty and TrueChamp . . . LMFAO . . .

     

     

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to bobbysu's comment:

     

    My only issue is TB was developing into one of best Play-Action QB's ever and we got away from it, with the Shotgun.
    I was trying to remember Teams that used the Shotgun a lot, and one Team pops up, the Old Cowboys with Staubach and White. These 2 QB's were mobile, if the protection breaks down , they could move, which caused more problems for the Defense. TB is not this kind of QB. There is no threat that Brady will run, which is starting to make the Offense easier to Defend. (Predictable).
    Now you add a Shotgun with an Open Backfield, and now you are making this Offense more predictable.
    Tom Brady is an under Center kind of QB, uses the Play-Action to freeze the Defense, then he just moves a little in the Pocket, to get some time, These are his strengths. Shotgun occasionly and maybe in 2 minute Offense.
    Other thing with this Shotgun Offense we got away from throwing deep, which made it more predictable, add the kind of recievers we had, it wasn't that hard for a Good Defensive Team to Defend us.

    By the way our Superbowl winning Defenses were some of the Smartest Football Players we ever had.

     




    He's the best playaction QB I've ever seen and he doesn't want to use it, which is absolutely bizarre.

     

    Or, and it's hard to ignore, the big reason he "prefers the shotgun" is because of his injury in 2008 and the visibility to see what is coming from that vantage points makes him feel more secure.

    The shotgun was used at times in 2003, 2004, but it started to be used more in 2005 with McDaniels.

    Then it became absolutely the base in 2007 because it made sense with Moss and Welker. That base was Moss deep, Welker underneath.

    They tried it with Cassel in early 2008, realized it was too much, scaled it back to run a bit more than 2007, and Cassel and the offense was more balance by need, more than anything.

    Then, in 2009, it went back to trying to chase down 2007's style and I noticed right away we had problems. This is a huge, huge turning point where our offense literally disappeared in second halves that year, partly due to no quality 3rd WR, but mostly because the approach was completely predictable.

    One gear ain't cutting it.

    And, what's frustrating about 2011 or 2012 is that they almost CHOOSE to have that one gear. When it's held off or stopped cold, they don't use anything else, so they keep trying and trying and trying, which essentially means Brady stares down the guys running the routes in the middle of the field.

    When was the last time we went deep in the 1st qtr with Brady under Center, just for effect?

    Seriously, I cannot name one time, unless in Week 1 vs Tenn this year where Brady had Lloyd wide open and Lloyd had to stop because the ball hung up in the air on a bad trajectory.

    But, that week 1 was really the way to attack. Ridley had a great game, the O Line was in rhythm, etc. But, they just can't run the offense like that week to week and it's by CHOICE, which is infuriating.

     



    He's the best playaction QB I've ever seen

    guess you never saw Boomer Esiason then

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Play action passes are the answer to everything.  The safety was a play action pass ...

     

     




     

    A play action pass on the 1st play of the game from your own 5 yard line against the best pass rush in football knowing that we lost 2 games in a row to them with a THREE TO ONE pass to run ratio is a TERRIBLE PLAY CALL.

    The run needs to be established for the PA to work = fact.

    Sorry about the caps, but I didn't think you could hear me.

    And yes doing the exact same thing in the post season, you did in the regular season against the best defense's in the LG leads to offensive stagnancy, just ask our team.

    Oh wait, you are a season ticket holder, so you already know.

    Hey, I will now take a page from your book.....Maybe you should just go down on the field from your "season ticket holder" seats and just tell BB he doesn't have the right talent. Perhaps he can call Parcells to build his team for him, because as Babe and a few of you are keen on saying, BB only won SB's with the players Parcells drafted....

    Which is wrong btw.

    Lmfao @ you are a season tix holder so you can see the field better and nobody is open so we don't have talent on offense.

    HILARIOUS DUDE...F-ING HILARIOUS




    now that's the ticket!!

     
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    Re: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ - The Patriots Real Problem

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Two coaches who called play action passes on the first play of the game in 2011:  Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin.

    Two coaches, NFL Network ranks as top in the league: Bill Belichick, Tom Coughlin.

    Two posters who think calling play action on the first play of the game is stupid: True Champ, Rusty

    Combined Super Bowl rings since 2001, Bill Belichick and Tom Coughlin: 5

    Combined Super Bowl rings since 2001, Rusty and TrueChamp . . . LMFAO . . .

     

     

     



    Are you lawyer? Seriously. Are you?

     



    No.  But that was the winning argument. 

     

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