I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jaytf25. Show jaytf25's posts

    I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Why can't they play like it's a tight game? Why let a team come down and score just like the Chargers game?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Well the point of the prevent defense, as crazy as it sounds, is not to prevent the other team from scoring but to prevent a quick score and hopefully make them chew up their own clock. When you're up by more the 3 touches in the 4th it's actually a solid plan, well that's provided that the O can maintain at least 1 long drive taking a 1/3 or more of the clock off the board
     
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxpatsfan08. Show Soxpatsfan08's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    reall good it did there.. it chewed up what? like 2 minutes 30 seconds
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from wolfwood. Show wolfwood's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

     it its not working....arghhh
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    You and every fan of every NFL team which has a big 4th quarter lead.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SilverSun. Show SilverSun's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    We did the same thing against Big Ben and the Steelers.  I hate it too and it allows too many easy and fast scores.  All good teams have effective 2 min drills and this passive D plays right into it.  BB and Co should put this plan away.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    What is the Patriots' record when they use the prevent defense this year?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    I don't like to see the other team score however given the experience level of this D, I don't think it's a bad tactic.  Once the D comes together I suspect you won't see it give up quite so many points.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    I think the prevent played into their hands because Roethlisberger is better out of the pocket than in it (3 man rush worked poorly), but I thought it worked to perfection in the second half against Cincy.

    It's hard to score in the red zone on this defense than it is to move the ball (which is a good thing!), so obviously the two late TDs, more notably the one to Wallace last, was just a play where McCourty got beat from 25 yards out, plain and simple.

    Look at it this way:

    The red zone D is VASTLY improved as opposed to last year's red zone D, most notbaly the pass D in the red zone, where they struggled badly last year.




     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SilverSun. Show SilverSun's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Prof, I just believe D is meant to be played aggressive, all out.  The name of the game in the NFL is "pass the ball and get the call", and I think ruch the QB, and hitting receivers at the line, and man up coverage is the way to go.  Also, there is the idea that you can build confidence in a young defense like the Pats by playing a consistent four quarter game - not get them metally accustomed to repeatedly giving up two or more scores at the end of the contest.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    To ALL:

    RE: The NE Patriots Prevent Defense...

    There is, and can be, A middle ground in terms of this thought:
    "Prof, I just believe D is meant to be played aggressive, all out...not get them metally accustomed to repeatedly giving up two or more scores at the end of the contest."
         ~fyyankees
    And the oppossing semblance, generally summed up here:
    "When the team is ahead by 3 scores and the offense is moving the ball effectively you don't open up the playbook just for the sake of keeping the score a blowout and making it pretty.  Keep the big play in front of you and don't allow a quick strike 80 yarder to swing the momentum and get the crowd back into it. It's conservative, yes, but it's smart with this team for right now!"
          ~prophet

    ...And the resolution lies within How NE goes about playing its Base Defense for 3/4's of most games.  Quick refresher: NE's Defense=Standard 3-4 Defense, and the most original form of the 3-4, dubbed "Fairbanks-Bulloughs" (I believe).  This form of 3-4 D, by it's very design, IS in a form of a "prevent defense" as it stands...  It has less weird stunting and wild shifting by the Front 7, like Pittsburgh often does.  Likewise, It has less Zone Blitzes like Dallas & sometimes San Diego likes to do ("Zone Blitz" Ex: For instance, ya send your NT, 1 of the DEs, and the OLB and ILB who are on the same side as this DE, ALL swarming 1 half of the O-Line in order to ideally overwhelm them on that side).  BUT NE, doesn't do even close to as much stunting or zone-blitzing, as these teams employ in their 3-4 Defenses...  YET, WHAT NE does do in the standard 3-4 Defensive looks works---

    Here is the main reason WHY NE's base 3-4 Defense works (or should), and it ties in with why a 4th quarter "prevent defense" should work too:

    ~What ideally, SHOULD work by using NE's 3-4 Defense (and in many respects, a prevent defense as well)...  
         Having only 3 D-Lineman, rather than 4 guys on that D-Line, Your Defense has instead added an extra Linebacker into the equation.  MEANING: IF those 3 D-Lineman are doing there job, which is to hopefully occupy 2 or more O-Lineman (playing multiple gaps between each O-Lineman-'2 gapping'), THEN your now-4 Linebackers are BOTH free against the run, to read the direction of the play and react accordingly with greater numbers of unhindered LBs, And your now-4 Linebackers are creating a greater "canopy effect" of more players to cover smaller areas of ground against the passing play...  
         Overall, your susceptible to giving up the a couple extra yards against the run, and your 3 instead of 4 D-Lineman, aren't gonna put as much pressure into the backfield, but the calculated rationale is that the Offense in getting more extended drives (and during prevent d=eating precious time off the clock)-WILL eventually fall short, make a mistake, turnover the ball, fail to convert another 1st down, AND This All will happen BECAUSE you have those extra guys further back off the LOS, less hindered to read the developing play, and thus: Better Able to Capitalize...  No big offensive plays, No huge risky gambles by your defenders, And THEY will fail before you fail.  
         THIS is the overall gist and rationale...
         Yet, there are certain problems and/or at best, Totally Required Stipulations that need be met for it to work
    ... 

    1 Problem: New England's current Defensive Personell...
         ~It's ALL about PERSONELL...personell, Personell, Personell!  Your 3-4 Defense needs EXACTLY the correct personell in order to be effective.  For instance, simply think back to some players on NE's MOST successful D-Lines of the SB years:  Size-wise, they were simply freakin' immense-Warren, Seymour, T Washington, alone were 6'5 300lbs, 6'6 310lbs, and 6'5 365lbs...now, with M Wright, G Warren, V Wilfork, and M Pryor, ya got 6'3 295lbs, 6'4 325lbs, 6'2 325lbs, and 6'1 310lbs...  These guys are typically smaller, and/or smaller, yet heavier...And sorry, extra weight doesn't make a "better athlete."  The 3 D-Lineman we had previously, took up multiple O-lineman better, AND against the pass-The First 3 WERE a greater threat to eventually get to the QB quicker than simply sending the Front 3 alone, whom we have now.  And I ain't even bringin' up having big, fast, and extremely well-rounded OLBs in 6'4 Vrabel on the stronside and 6'5 Willie Mac on weakside (and BOTH of these guys were just as adept to contain the run, rush the QB, and cover a passing lane; Meaning: More threats, and more single player threats, in more places, and at more times).  D-Line alone means: 4th quarter Prevent D, or standard 3-4 NE Defense, Patriots are NOT putting as much backfield pressure on the QB (and as we saw vs Cleveland against their running game, the D-line isn't occupying multiple offensive blockers as in the past NE D's)...  Yet, QB pressure alone, NE's past 3-4 Defenses (and/or "prevents")weren't sack machines, yet there WAS a difference in NE's D-Lineman collapsing the pocket and putting just a hair widths of more pressure on the QB better...and this minor difference is HUGE.  Ya give an NFL caliber QB just 1 second longer, and he is infinitely more certain to strike his receiver. 
        
         And as we see, Not having the precisely needed 3-4 D/Prevent D personell with the size, speed, athleticism, vet game knowledge, and versatility of game skills, As we once had-MEANS that BOTH In NE's standard 3-4 Defense, and even moreso, In NE's Prevent Defense, Imho RE: NE's 4th Quarter Prevent Defense alone, Things HAVE to be done differently...and right now, it doesn't appear that they are...

    THINGS Apparently NOT Taken Into Consideration...
         ~As we said, NE's 3 D-Lineman aren't getting that just a little bit of added backfield pressure on the oppossing QB as they once did, and thus during NE's current Prevent D's where BB doesn't send an extra defender blitzing (like he's been doing somewhat lately in the first 3 quarters of play)-There is ZERO pressure on the oppossing QB.  And I don't care HOW many defenders ya got back "canopying" the field of play, IF a QB has forever, A WR WILL get open, and that QB WILL find him. 
         And this brings to light another thing BB HAS to reconsider when running his late-game Prevent Defense: The Current NFL Offensive Personell AND Current NFL Rule Changes...  Ya got bigger, faster receivers now who are running exacting & precise timing routes and trees, In the NFL with more adept QBs...oh, and if ya graze a receiver when the ball's in the air, it's a penalty.  ANYone else see a problem here...?  1 Problem:  CB coverage is usually now in a soft-zone OR a loose-man coverage, next to nothing else.  This means your CB is about 7 yards back from the WR to start the play.  So NOW ya got a WR totally free to get up to full-speed, run his exact timing route, and a QB who isn't threatened and nows he's not threatened, Ready to deliver a strike.  It doesn't even make sense to me...?  Your CBs aren't ever playing man-press by jamming the receiver at the LOS and/or bump and run, Because you don't want them to get burned for the deep pass play, YET there's ZERO QB pressure and your CB is more oft to have to do something drastic anyway to recover and even attempt to be in place to defend a full-speed wideout on an unchecked perfect route tree, catching a more precise throw by an unthreatened QB?!  It simply doesn't make sense to me worrying about playing some more 4th quarter press-man coverage against the receivers, because they might have to alter their routes up, take longer routes, mess-up the timing patterns, And these HAVE to outweigh the standard worry when jamming receivers at the LOS, that they'll break free for the big pass... 
         Jesus, It's a Prevent Defense, so ya now got added defenders back in coverage to help your CBs out, IF and when this does possibly happen.  AND given your current personell in Darius Butler and Devin McCourty as is...McCourty is simply fantastic at jamming his man right at the LOS, with absurd recovery speed to do so.  And with Butler, his strong-suit IS playing bump and run and jamming them early on, It's when playing zone and/or the receiver able to get seperation from Butler in off-man or zone, That he fails...often.


        
         Anyway, Sorry for the length (as usual), But this thread had particular interest given The Colts near comeback this Sunday... 
    ~~I simply don't understand that BB doesn't see some of these things when taking into consideration his Prevent late-game Defenses now...It is simply TOO vanilla to do what it's rationale intends it to do: Eat great amounts of time off the clock, and not give up the big-play...so whoope? NE doesn't give up 60 yard plays and scores, and just gives up 4 15 yard plays or 6 10 yard plays (where the receiver has the room to get out of bounds and stop the clock, regardless).
    ~~Things for BB to seriously ponder:  Less studs on NE's D-Line for less pocket collapsing (so when your suddenly NEVER sending a 4th defender at the LOS, you're scr#wed), Better QBs throwing to faster WRs whom ya can't touch & are at full-speed running perfectly timed route trees, and your CBs are BETTER (and in some cases, Excellent) at jamming those WRs at the LOS, And this jamming has a greater chance of lengthening and/or skewing these WRs timing routes (so this might actually give your D-Lineman an added second to get QB pressure), And finally ya have added deep-field threat (often with another Safety or DB, in place of that 4th LB)-IF they do get burned when jamming.    
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Laz, with all due respect, you're a knowledgeable, articulate poster, but I can't read your posts; there is simply too much there for my limited intellect.  Please consider this feedback from but a humble Pats fan.

    And I must admit I was uncomfortable with the D in the 4th.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SShoreLurker. Show SShoreLurker's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Take the opposition by the throat and choke the life out of them.  Playing the clock is losing football.

    Example: Houston vs. NYJ today.  Should have played to score a TD and not safe and for a 4 point lead.  They had momentum after being down 23-7.  

    LOSING Football!!!

    And now we have to here more fawning over the cardiac kids of NYJ.  Grrrrrrr!!!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!


    Until Sanders pick, I thought this was deja vous all over again. We've seen it multiple times this season when the Pats are up, how they allow their opponents to creep back into the game. I don't know if it's the prevent D that Laz so eloquently details above, or perhaps the O not doing its job, extending drives and scoring. Perhaps both. 

    I did notice in the 4th quarter last night, in particular before the Colts last drive, we seemed to fall in love with running the ball. The problem was we weren't gaining as much and went 3 and out. Why change the gameplan in these situations? Why not keep passing and trying to advance the ball and score. It seemed like the offensive playcalling when we get leads in the 4th reverts back to very vanilla, aimed at taking time off the clock, but not gaining yardage or putting points on the board...



     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MuellerTime19. Show MuellerTime19's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Amen to all above. Why cant BB just keep playing attack/decoy defense?

    It is shortening my life span at the end of these games. My goodness. How many times do comebacks have to happen before we learn?

    Or how about being in the prevent so many times we actually get BETTER at playing it? I'll take that too!!!! 

    Whatever the solution I hope it comes soon. The good thing about being in the prevent and the ONLY good thing is that we apparently have the lead at that point!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from NY-PATS-FAN4. Show NY-PATS-FAN4's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    I wish the Texans HAD played the prevent defense yesterday.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from p-mike. Show p-mike's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Do not confuse "prevent" defense with "matador" defense.

    The Colts scored 14 points in something like three-and-a-half minutes in the fourth quarter yesterday.

    Ole'


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    The prevent only works if it actually prevents TDs from happening.  It almost always leaves some huge openings on the field and good QBs will rack up yardage against it. And inevitably score. I might argue that a prevent only makes sense when there's less than 2 minutes on clock. The problem is that we seem to be seeing prevents and soft zones when there is 6-8 minutes on the clock. Thus giving good teams with good QBs time to comeback.

    What most are saying is right. If Brady & Co. go on a long time consuming drive that nets a TD in the 4th we aren't having this conversation about how much prevents and soft zones s--k.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SilverSun. Show SilverSun's posts

    Re: I HATE THE PREVENT DEFENSE!

    Thanks Lazarus and JohnHannah; like both posts.  Was it just me, or did y'all see Dieon Branch interfered with on the last or second to last three-and-out by Pats?  On replay it was clear to me that Colt DB hit Branch well before ball reached him for catch attempt.  This would have been a first down; yet refs did not call it.  I think this was what Brady was remonstrating with zebra'a about at game end.

    Also, I noted Big Vince getting clotherlined on a bull-rush up the middle on Peyton in second half - another no call by officials.  Jusy wonderin' Colts throw almost all the time, yet their OLine seems never to be called for holding - not just this game - any game.  Any thooughts?

    Agree we still need to upgrade our DE OLB personnel to make D more effective late in the game and hope we do so through draft this coming year.  Did not understand the last offensive series by Pats - why have BJGE run two sweeps to opposite sides of field.  We have a strength, not speed advantage on Colts D, we should have gone up the middle or off tackle and bullied them straight ahead for the first down!

    Great win though!
     
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