In BB WeTrust

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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : What would the 2001 team have been without Vinatieri the greatest clutch kicker in history, Troy Brown the 100+ catch receiver, Kevin Faulk the exceptional 3rd down back, Woody a pro-bowl caliber center, Tedy, Hall of Fame caliber CB Ty Law and other starters such as Rod Rutledge, Brandon Mitchell, Lawyer Milloy and Tebucky Jones? That's nearly half the team's key players that BB didn't bring. BB went 5-11 with a team that Carrol didn't have a losing season with for 3 years. The BB hit the jackpot with Brady in the 6th round. You're not making a very good case here that I'm wrong.  
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Here is the starting lineup for the 2003 SB with players brought in by BB bolded:

    Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Russ Hochstein
    C: Dan Koppen
    RG: Joe Andruzzi
    RT: Tom Ashworth
    TE: Daniel Graham
    WR: Troy Brown
    WR: Deion Branch
    RB: Antowain Smith
    FB: Larry Centers

    Defense:

    LE: Bobby Hamilton
    NT: Ted Washington
    RE: Richard Seymour
    LOLB: Willie McGinest
    LILB: Tedy Bruschi
    RILB: Roman Phifer
    ROLB: Mike Vrabel
    LCB: Ty Law
    RCB: Tyrone Poole
    SS: Rodney Harrison
    FS: Eugene WIlson


    How about the 2004 starting lineup in the SB again with the players BB brought in bolded:

    Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Joe Andruzzi
    C: Dan Koppen
    RG: Stephen Neal
    RT: Brandon Gorin
    TE: Daniel Graham
    WR: David Givens
    WR: Deion Branch
    RB: Corey Dillon
    FB: Patrick Pass


    Defense:

    LE: Roosevelt Colvin
    NT: Vince Wilfork
    RE: Richard Seymour
    LOLB: Willie McGinest
    LILB: Tedy Bruschi
    RILB: Roman Phifer
    ROLB: Mike Vrabel
    LCB: Asante Samuel
    RCB: Randall Gay
    SS: Rodney Harrison
    FS: Eugene WIlson


    I don't know about the rest of you, but I see a lot of bolded names here.  BB did not inherit this team.  He inherited some good players, but let's not kid ourselves here.

    *EDIT: I combined both posts for the 2003 and 04 teams and deleted the extraneous 04 only post.

     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]Babe: Here is the original list of players that I posted a couple of months ago that were brought in by BB in one way or another that started or played major roles on at least one of our 3 SB teams http://www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a9690Discussion%3ab653a1a3-f5b6-46bd-85c2-58313ce7425b&plckCurrentPage=2 Tom Brady Richard Seymour Matt Light David Patten Stephen Neal Anthony Pleasant Larry Izzo Mike Vrabel Terrell Buckley Antowain Smith Joe Andruzzi Mike Compton Greg Randall Bobby Hamilton Ty Warren Eugene Wilson Asante Samuel Dan Koppen Deion Branch David Givens Jarvis Green Roman Phifer Rodney Harrison Corey Dillon Ted Washington Vince Wilfork Tyrone Poole Jermaine Wiggins That's practically 30 players and isn't counting guys like Patrick Pass who were important role players.  Yes BB inherited guys like Law and Willie Mac, but you make it sound like every good GM in this league is brought in with the cupboard completely bare.  It's nonsense.  Just like it's nonsense to argue that Parcells assembled our team.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]

    Yep, and the other guys I listed were also responsible for helping this organization achieve the best record in NFL history over the course of the last 12 years.

    Only a phoney like baby would try and say that BB is an average GM with the list of talent he acquired over the years.


    Here it is again just in case....

    Read it and weep Jests fans. Babe and Bustchise should have a picnic together over looking the Jersey sky line, and reminisce about the SB they won 50 years ago.



    Tom Brady
    Richard Seymour
    Matt Light
    David Patten
    Stephen Neal
    Anthony Pleasant
    Larry Izzo
    Mike Vrabel
    Terrell Buckley
    Brian Cox
    Antowain Smith
    Joe Andruzzi
    Mike Compton
    Greg Randall
    Bobby Hamilton
    Ty Warren
    Eugene Wilson
    Asante Samuel
    Dan Koppen
    Deion Branch
    David Givens
    Jarvis Green
    Roman Phifer
    Rodney Harrison
    Corey Dillon
    Ted Washington
    Vince Wilfork
    Tyrone Poole
    Jermaine Wiggins
    Randy Moss
    Wes Welker
    Donte Stalworth
    Jabar Gaffney
    Laurence Maroney
    BJGE
    Sammy Morris
    Danny Woodhead
    Rob Gronkowski
    Aaron Hernandez
    Sebastian Volmer
    Nate Solder
    Brian Waters
    Kyle Love
    Leigh Bodden(1 very good year)
    Brandon Merriweather
    Devon Mccourty
    Kyle Arrington
    Jerod Mayo
    Brandon Spikes
    Rob Ninkovic
    Andre Carter
    Mark Anderson
    Big Gerrard Warren


    Bill Belichick.....the greatest GM of the salary cap era, and imo the G.O.A.T

     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust



    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : Don't bother trying to find any logic in his rants, it isn't there. A troll only hopes to instigate...  it comes from frustration having to watch his himetown Jet's lose again and again...
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    It's still fun to destroy this young man every once in a while!
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    If your argument is that you need to be responsible for every player on the roster to "build a team" then no BB did not build the SB winning teams.  But that is an insane argument imo.  BB was responsible for 86% (38/44) of the players in the starting 11 on offense and defense in the 2003 and 2004 SBs per my previous post.  If BB didn't build those teams who did?
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : LOL! This just proves how little you know and how much you likely started as a bandwagon fan in 2001. Dude, the team was 5-10 in 2000 and had older players with bloated contracts. BB inherited a mess.  Ty Law was chubby, Bruschi was out of position, McGinest hadn't peaked quite yet and had been dinged up a lot and their drafts under the Greier/Carroll setting were awful. It's amazing how clueless you and you're troll buddies are.
    Posted by BassFishingII[/QUOTE]


    Snap out of it moron. Unlike you I don't criticize BB's coaching. Of course some guys he inherited got better when a great coach arrived. That is learned in football kindergarten, which you have yet to graduate from.

    I started in 1966. When did you join in knucklehead?
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : oh boy...here we go again. as i've said umteen million times bruschi law mcginest vinitieri etc  were here before BB and he did a great job of filling this out and a great job of coaching this group (as babe has said 8000 times) and deserves accolades but not the accolade that says he built his 3 sb teams exclusively because he did not and those he didn't bring in are equally important-in vinitieri's case even moreso-than those he did brady fell in his lap and an injury gave him his job so please dont go down that route and as for Grier as GM, trust me as a Giants fan who saw Parcells with Young and the 80's teams. Parcells picked those players-certainly and most definitley the defensive ones...and lets face it, the D and Vinitieri won u three SB's more than brady or the O if you and TC and others cant understand this then i give up-of course rusty hears this as a BB put down which is pathetic
    Posted by JintsFan[/QUOTE]

    Queenie is a certifiable idiot so explaining facts to him is useless. But keep it up. Facts to him are like holy water to a vampire. At least we can enjoy watching him flail away and try to squirm his way out of his own stupidity.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]If your argument is that you need to be responsible for every player on the roster to "build a team" then no BB did not build the SB winning teams.  But that is an insane argument imo.  BB was responsible for 86% (38/44) of the players in the starting 11 on offense and defense in the 2003 and 2004 SBs per my previous post.  If BB didn't build those teams who did?
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]


    Certainly by 2004 the team had much more of his people on it. I never said it didn't. But his greatest claim to fane is the "dynasty" of 3 SB wins in 4 years, and that dynasty was to a significant degree populated by players he did not choose.

    In contrast, teams almost entirely built by him have managed to lose the biggest games including 2 SBs and an AFC Championship. And this happened when BB the GM had the best coach in the NFL running the team.

    These are facts.

     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : Certainly by 2004 the team had much more of his people on it. I never said it didn't. But his greatest claim to fane is the "dynasty" of 3 SB wins in 4 years, and that dynasty was to a significant degree populated by players he did not choose. In contrast, teams almost entirely built by him have managed to lose the biggest games including 2 SBs and an AFC Championship. And this happened when BB the GM had the best coach in the NFL running the team. These are facts.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    My earlier post already demonstrated that BB was responsible for the vast majority of the 2003 and 2004 SB starting 11 on both sides of the ball.  This is a fact.  You however seem to be hung up on the 2001 team.  Let's take a look at the starting 11 on both sides in that SB with the players BB brought in bolded.

    Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Mike Compton
    C: Damien Woody
    RG: Joe Andruzzi
    RT: Greg Robinson-Randall
    TE: Jermaine Wiggins
    WR: Troy Brown
    WR: David Patten
    RB: Antowain Smith
    FB: Marc Edwards

    Defense:

    LE: Bobby Hamilton
    LDT: Brandon Mitchell
    RDT: Richard Seymour
    RE: Anthony Pleasant
    LOLB: Mike Vrabel
    MLB: Tedy Bruschi
    ROLB: Willie McGinest
    LCB: Ty Law
    RCB: Otis Smith
    SS: Lawyer Milloy
    FS: Tebucky Jones

    So sure in 2001 BB wasn't as responsible for as many of the starting 11 in the SB as he was in 2003 and 2004, but still a majority at 63% (14/22).  Overall then for the 3 SBs BB was responsible for 78% of the starting 11 on both sides of the ball.  How is that for a fact?  Even if you want to discount 2001 completely which would be silly imo I don't see how you can't give him credit for 2003 and 2004.  Back to back super bowl wins is a claim to fame.

     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : So like every other coach coming into a team, he turns most of the roster over in three years?  Is this some kind of revelation?
    Posted by Bustchise[/QUOTE]

    Apparently it is to some who claim that BB simply won 3 SBs with other people's players.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : Yep, and the other guys I listed were also responsible for helping this organization achieve the best record in NFL history over the course of the last 12 years. Only a phoney like baby would try and say that BB is an average GM with the list of talent he acquired over the years. Here it is again just in case.... Read it and weep Jests fans. Babe and Bustchise should have a picnic together over looking the Jersey sky line, and reminisce about the SB they won 50 years ago. Tom Brady Richard Seymour Matt Light David Patten Stephen Neal Anthony Pleasant Larry Izzo Mike Vrabel Terrell Buckley Brian Cox Antowain Smith Joe Andruzzi Mike Compton Greg Randall Bobby Hamilton Ty Warren Eugene Wilson Asante Samuel Dan Koppen Deion Branch David Givens Jarvis Green Roman Phifer Rodney Harrison Corey Dillon Ted Washington Vince Wilfork Tyrone Poole Jermaine Wiggins Randy Moss Wes Welker Donte Stalworth Jabar Gaffney Laurence Maroney BJGE Sammy Morris Danny Woodhead Rob Gronkowski Aaron Hernandez Sebastian Volmer Nate Solder Brian Waters Kyle Love Leigh Bodden(1 very good year) Brandon Merriweather Devon Mccourty Kyle Arrington Jerod Mayo Brandon Spikes Rob Ninkovic Andre Carter Mark Anderson Big Gerrard Warren Bill Belichick.....the greatest GM of the salary cap era, and imo the G.O.A.T
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    Here's the only name on that list you need concern yourself with, dumb as a stump.

    Tom Brady

    There's your "best record in NFL history over the course of the last 12 years" in a nutshell.

    The rest feature a few great players, some good ones and a whole bunch of standard issue NFL players and even outright fails. Without that one name the success would be a shadow of what it has been no matter how good the coaching.

    Bow down to your Football God - Brady, you peon.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : Apparently it is to some who claim that BB simply won with other people's players.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]


    No, BB won with Brady. As we know he is a losing coach overall without Tom. But yes, it is fact, his greatest success did come with teams laced with players other people brought in. That is fact.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : But yes, it is fact, his greatest success did come with teams laced with players other people brought in. That is fact.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Don't let anything like facts get in the way of your broad assertions.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : No, BB won with Brady
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    You are the master of spin.  On the one hand you argue we win more SBs these past few years with a better defense and on the other you completely discount all the other players on our SB winning teams because it doesn't fit your agenda unless they were brought in by another regime in which case they were hugely important.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : My earlier post already demonstrated that BB was responsible for the vast majority of the 2003 and 2004 SB starting 11 on both sides of the ball.  This is a fact.  You however seem to be hung up on the 2001 team.  Let's take a look at the starting 11 on both sides in that SB with the players BB brought in bolded. Offense: QB: Tom Brady LT: Matt Light LG: Mike Compton C: Damien Woody RG: Joe Andruzzi RT: Greg Robinson-Randall TE: Jermaine Wiggins WR: Troy Brown WR: David Patten RB: Antowain Smith FB: Marc Edwards Defense: LE: Bobby Hamilton LDT: Brandon Mitchell RDT: Richard Seymour RE: Anthony Pleasant LOLB: Mike Vrabel MLB: Tedy Bruschi ROLB: Willie McGinest LCB: Ty Law RCB: Otis Smith SS: Lawyer Milloy FS: Tebucky Jones So sure in 2001 BB wasn't as responsible for as many of the starting 11 in the SB as he was in 2003 and 2004, but still a majority at 63% (14/22).  Overall then for the 3 SBs BB was responsible for 78% of the starting 11 on both sides of the ball.  How is that for a fact?  Even if you want to discount 2001 completely which would be silly imo I don't see how you can't give him credit for 2003 and 2004.  Back to back super bowl wins is a claim to fame.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]


    Well, you're forgetting Pioli in all this anyway. But...

    I have said he did have a lot of players of his own during that dynasty. But the inherited guys who remained even until 2004 were key people.

    Of course over that time any coach is going to let average guys go and put in his own average guys.

    You're not making the case that BB is some great team builder.

    The fact remains from all evidence he is a typical team builder, nothing exceptional, who saw his greatest success with many players he did not bring in and a lucky pick in the 6th round.

    Without that 6th round player and those inherited assets he has managed only to lose 2 SBs and 1 AFC Championship. Fact.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : He'll never concede defeat on this topic or the passing, finesse offense addiction debates. He's lost both and simply can't get himself to admit he has. Can you imagine him being wrong on his job? Oh my. I know he;s in his 60s, but I don't think he works anymore. That's sick, really. A 60 year+ old invidual so enamored with Brady and protecting Brady on a board, he has to use the anti-BB angle to prop up Brady?  I just can't imagine it. It's like my dad or my uncles behaving the way he does, so enamored with Brady and somehow enraged with BB as the greatest coach and GM of all time, he doesn't like it? How does any Pats fan call BB as a GM "average" when the cap is really set up to make things really difficult to win year in and year out? I kept telling him he'd look dumb by following the anti-BB media and warned of our flawed offense in the postseason.  He just doesn't want to learn.  He toted around the mantras of ESPN, Mazz, Felger, etc here, but now who looks foolish? Also, apparently, Peter King thinks the Giants set the blueprint in the cap era. LMAO
    Posted by BassFishingII[/QUOTE]
    You  say  the  cap  makes  it  difficult  to  win  year  in, year  out.  This  may  be  true  but  the  PATS  haven't  won  in  the  last  7  years.  That's  not  even  close  to  winning  year  in, year  out.  You  say  our  offense  was  flawed  in  the  post  season.  I  think  you  are  taking  things  out  of  context.  The  offense  had  to  go  up  against  two  of  the  best  defenses  in  the  league  and  the  PATS  were  without  Gronk  in  the  SB.  If  the  PATS  offense  went  up  against  the  PATS  D, they  would  probably  score  40  points  a  game.  Also, BB  did  a  horrendous  job  of  putting  together  last  year's  D.  He  had  to  rely  on  players  from  his  offense  and  players  from  the  street  to  play  defense.  You  can  put  any  spin  you  want  on  it.  The  D  was  terrible.  However, BB  probably  one  of  the  top  3  coaches  in  the  league,  coached  them  up  to  the  point  where  they  played  atleast  better  than  their  talent.    The  good  news  is  that  BB  may  be  learning  from  past  draft  mistakes.  The  past  3  drafts  show  great  promise  and  this  year's  D  has  to  be  a  significant  improvement  from  last  year.  
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: In BB WeTrust : You are the master of spin.  On the one hand you argue we win more SBs these past few years with a better defense and on the other you completely discount all the other players on our SB winning teams because it doesn't fit your agenda unless they were brought in by another regime in which case they were hugely important.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]


    Nonsense. I have never said BB is a bad GM incapable of hitting on some choices. He's just not this great team builder of myth that some of you claim he is.

    Yeah, if BB didn't blow almost an entire defense worth of high picks over the course of several recent years on mediocre to poor choices we would have very likely won another SB or even as many as three more.
     
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    Re: In BB WeTrust

    while I do subscribe to the "in BB we trust" theme, I did numerous times question his FA signings. I do not doubt that he made training camp much more interesting, but I question if he indeed upgraded the talent, and how many of the signings will actually play every Sunday? (or make the team?)
    I also questioned the draft decisions....not that the players taken may not pan out, but how much of a "project" are the first 3 choices? And is the team still very vulnerable in the back 4?
    I would have prefered a defensive playmaker in the draft or FA signing, and I am not sure we got one.
    I do think that Jones could be very good in 2-3 years, I do not think he is ready for major snaps this year
    I do think that Hightower could be good in the Mayo/Spikes mold, but while they are very good, are they playmakers?
     

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