Interesting OL read

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    Re: Interesting OL read

    Yeah - I read that. And when you think about the back-ups like Cannon and Thomas and the red shirt Zusevics I am not sure they need to draft or look hard for FAs on the line. For the last few years the Pats cuts at OL have been gobbled up by other teams. That center in Denver (Koppen) was a god-send to them when their starter went down.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    Niners might have the best front 7 on D as well...

    You win and lose the game in the trenches...

    Niners in the SB, and I am not surprised. 

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    SF was in the crapper for years.  If you have that many high picks you look good after a while and it's been a while. 

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

    Yeah - I read that. And when you think about the back-ups like Cannon and Thomas and the red shirt Zusevics I am not sure they need to draft or look hard for FAs on the line. For the last few years the Pats cuts at OL have been gobbled up by other teams. That center in Denver (Koppen) was a god-send to them when their starter went down.

     



    I don't agree. Vollmer and Thomas are free agents. Mankins has 2-3 more years of peak performance? Connolly is bett suited for back up swing man role. I saw a lot of camp. I really thought if Waters came back, the odd man out due to poor performance was Cannon. He stunk it up in camp. He did play better during the season, but no one has confidence in him yet to get regular snaps. His ceiling may be versatile swing man. 

     




    Thomas is close to a min contract guy, he'll be back.

    They would be foolish not to resign Vollmer.

    You can make and argument that we could upgrade RG but really would you spend good amount of money or high draft picks to replace a (+) OLman when there are other areas that need attention and would provide a greater impact to the team?

    You are really trying to argue that the 3rd best OL in the league needs to add more over other positions?

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

     All I can say is, it will be a sad, sad day in Patriotland when Scar retires.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    I have been saying that if there is no surprise trade netting the Patriots a top 10 pick they should take an Olineman. I am hoping that Jones from Alabama will still be on the board at 29.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

    Yeah - I read that. And when you think about the back-ups like Cannon and Thomas and the red shirt Zusevics I am not sure they need to draft or look hard for FAs on the line. For the last few years the Pats cuts at OL have been gobbled up by other teams. That center in Denver (Koppen) was a god-send to them when their starter went down.

     



    I don't agree. Vollmer and Thomas are free agents. Mankins has 2-3 more years of peak performance? Connolly is bett suited for back up swing man role. I saw a lot of camp. I really thought if Waters came back, the odd man out due to poor performance was Cannon. He stunk it up in camp. He did play better during the season, but no one has confidence in him yet to get regular snaps. His ceiling may be versatile swing man. 

     

     




    Thomas is close to a min contract guy, he'll be back.

     

    They would be foolish not to resign Vollmer.

    You can make and argument that we could upgrade RG but really would you spend good amount of money or high draft picks to replace a (+) OLman when there are other areas that need attention and would provide a greater impact to the team?

    You are really trying to argue that the 3rd best OL in the league needs to add more over other positions?



    Cannon played well in relief of Vollmer this past year in what was really an extended rookie campaign for him given his medical history. Thomas outplayed a less than 100% Mankins and I agree he should come at a very reasonable number as a FA. And Zusevics was going to be a fairly high draft pick (2nd/3rd?) before he got injured at the combine and 'red-shirted'. And yes, thank goodness for Scar.

    We had a vastly improved running game this past year and really solid pass protection - AFC loss was not because of pass protection, zero sacks and limited pressures.

    PatsEng - absolutely right - with limited capital, there are other areas of the team that need investment before spending on O-line except for Vollmer/Thomas. I suspect those two can be resigned for a total cap hit of $4-5M. Top right tackles are not that expensive and with medical history they can add some incentives based on playing time.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    I'm quite pleased that Cannon has been able to contribute to any significant degree.  He was taken as a value pick for the future and has done well to be on the field given that from which he is recovering.  He may very well have reached his ceiling but I think it's a little early to make that assessment.

    Re-signing Vollmer I believe is a Pats priority.  

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

    Yeah - I read that. And when you think about the back-ups like Cannon and Thomas and the red shirt Zusevics I am not sure they need to draft or look hard for FAs on the line. For the last few years the Pats cuts at OL have been gobbled up by other teams. That center in Denver (Koppen) was a god-send to them when their starter went down.

     



    I don't agree. Vollmer and Thomas are free agents. Mankins has 2-3 more years of peak performance? Connolly is bett suited for back up swing man role. I saw a lot of camp. I really thought if Waters came back, the odd man out due to poor performance was Cannon. He stunk it up in camp. He did play better during the season, but no one has confidence in him yet to get regular snaps. His ceiling may be versatile swing man. 

     

     




    Thomas is close to a min contract guy, he'll be back.

    Not if some one offers him more money than the Pats can afford

     

    They would be foolish not to resign Vollmer.

    Agreed, unless someone decide to pay him left tackle money, then the Pats have to franchise him or let him walk. The franchise offer to Vollmer will assure Wes and Talib are out of reach for the Pats in their current cap condition

    You can make and argument that we could upgrade RG but really would you spend good amount of money or high draft picks to replace a (+) OLman when there are other areas that need attention and would provide a greater impact to the team?

    It would not surprise me to see the Pats trade down to recover some lost picks, and use one ofthose picks on an OLman. Esp if Vollmer and Thomas sign elsewhere

    You are really trying to argue that the 3rd best OL in the league needs to add more over other positions?

    I am saying the OL needs to stay 7-8 deep. I am saying it is not a lock Vollmer and Thomas are back. I am saying if they are not back, I am not confortable with Cannon seeing major snaps. I would prefer a bigger C than Wendell.

     




     




    rkarp you can say that about every FA everywhere. Of course someone could offer more but would they? We have $18-34mil in space depending on which reports are right and that places then (even on low end) in the top 1/3 of the league for cap space. Thomas even if offered double min contract it's less then $1mil extra on cap, unless you believe someone will give him starting G money at which point you might be looking at $3-4mil a year. I don't see that happening but you aren't talking a huge chunk of cap space. Then with Vollmer, if you offer him top 3 RT money you are still only talking ~$6mil per year which you can work the numbers around so the majority gets placed into the cap extension period. What Vollmer is going to get won't affect who you can and can't resign. Matter a fact you could sign Vollmer, Talib, and tag Welker and still have enough cap left over to sign all your draft picks and depth guys without releasing or asking for a contract rework from a single player. Resigning players isn't an issue with the Pats this offseason, what would be a problem is if they want to sign starting caliber or big name guys. Then you'd have to look at Welker since his cap number if tagged again would be more then Vollmer, Talib, draft picks, and depth guy signings combined.

    It wouldn't surprise me if they traded down either but it would surprise me if they spent high in the draft on OL. If they draft mid-late round OL for depth I could easily see that but what you inferred was that this OL has issues that need to be addressed this year and I just don't see them. Provided they resign Thomas and Vollmer (which they are fully capable of without much cap impact for this year) this OL is solid and deep for the furture, though you can argue that an upgrade at RG would be nice but not needed

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    You really think Thomas would command that kind of a salary? That would surpise me.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    Every time I read an article like this I think the same thing every time. Thank you Scar.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    You really think Thomas would command that kind of a salary? That would surpise me.

     




    the guy made $750 this year and played well. You think no other teams noticed? PatsEng said "even if they offered him double minimum wage"...well, that is less than he made this year, when he played in 50% of the offensive snaps for the 3rd ranked OL in football.

     

    To tell the truth, I actually do believe that the Pats first option is to bring both Vollmer and Thomas back unless they are completely blown away. Bringing them both back, not signing Wes or Talib (both too expensive) but retaining Edelman, Woody, Arrington, Huma (cutting Fells)

    It also would not surprise me to see Lloyd cut, with Hartline, and a #2 joining Edelman and maybe STallworth at WR.

     

    Skill position players: 

    Hartline/Edelman/#2 draft choice/Stallworth/Britt

    Gronk/Ballard/Hern/Huma

    Ridley/Vereen/Woody/Bolden/Demps

    If the above scenario plays out, with out a doubt, 2012 the worst free agency signing year in BB's tenure



    Not really commenting on the rest but with regard to Thomas, the average salary of an NFL O-lineman is $1,267,402.  

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0807/nfl.average.salaries.by.position/content.3.html

    You're suggesting Thomas would get nearly 2 1/2 times that.  I really don't see that happening.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    Hmmm, certainly be interesting to see how it plays out.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to garytx's comment:

    SF was in the crapper for years.  If you have that many high picks you look good after a while and it's been a while. 



    It is not just about drafting high. In 2010, the 49ers traded up for Davis and got Iupati by trading their second round pick the previous season. That was the year the Patriots traded down and ended up with McCourty in the first round.  Staley was on the board when the Patriots picked Meriweather in the 2007 draft. Goodwin is a 10 year veteran who has been with three teams, and was a pro-bowl center the season before they signed him, and Boone was an undrafted FA.

    I cannot complain about what the Patriots did in 2010. That was probably BB's best draft (McCourty, Gronk, Spikes and Hernandez plus Cunningham, Deaderick, and Mesko).

    The 2007 draft was a disaster. Meriweather was the only guy who really played, and we all know how that ended. 

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    With Vollmers medical history I just don't see anyone paying him at top 10 RT money - because signing him means that you still need a high quality back-up to cover for the 4-6 games he will miss based on last two years. Top 10 RT money comes in about 5M/per for 4 years. With a typical signing bonus/escalation that comes in at 3-4M for the first year. And no one is going to pay him as a left tackle based on a couple of games a few years ago, nor will the pats tag him because that is the same as paying him as a left tackle. 

    I could see someone offering Thomas a 4 year deal at 10M but back loaded and with limited guarantee (4M), and I could see the pats matching that. With half of the money at the back end unguaranteed - 2M signing, 1M, 1.5M, 2.5M, 3M, first two years guaranteed. If he develops further, great, you renegotiate in year three extending his deal, if not you cut him after 2 years. Cap hit 1.5M first year. I think that would be as good as he could expect - take a look at Waters a 5 time probowler - he was at 2.25/year.

    No way Welker is tagged - and he gets to test the market if he doesn't accept three years 20M with 14M guaranteed - cap hit around 5-6M in the first year.

    Talib - no way a player with his history gets tagged and if anyone offers him top ten money he is gone. I would not be surprised if he signs a middle of the pack one or two year deal to improve his reputation before trying for the big payday. With the current history, I would be surprised if anyone offers more than 6M/year or guaranteed money beyond about 10M.

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to mia76's comment:

    With Vollmers medical history I just don't see anyone paying him at top 10 RT money - because signing him means that you still need a high quality back-up to cover for the 4-6 games he will miss based on last two years. Top 10 RT money comes in about 5M/per for 4 years. With a typical signing bonus/escalation that comes in at 3-4M for the first year. And no one is going to pay him as a left tackle based on a couple of games a few years ago, nor will the pats tag him because that is the same as paying him as a left tackle. 

    I could see someone offering Thomas a 4 year deal at 10M but back loaded and with limited guarantee (4M), and I could see the pats matching that. With half of the money at the back end unguaranteed - 2M signing, 1M, 1.5M, 2.5M, 3M, first two years guaranteed. If he develops further, great, you renegotiate in year three extending his deal, if not you cut him after 2 years. Cap hit 1.5M first year. I think that would be as good as he could expect - take a look at Waters a 5 time probowler - he was at 2.25/year.

    No way Welker is tagged - and he gets to test the market if he doesn't accept three years 20M with 14M guaranteed - cap hit around 5-6M in the first year.

    Talib - no way a player with his history gets tagged and if anyone offers him top ten money he is gone. I would not be surprised if he signs a middle of the pack one or two year deal to improve his reputation before trying for the big payday. With the current history, I would be surprised if anyone offers more than 6M/year or guaranteed money beyond about 10M.



    I don't disagree with the numbers you put forward. But if the Patriots tried to sign those four guys with cap hits of $6M, $6M, $4M and $2M that would literally use up all the cap space and still leave them with 14 empty roster spaces. The Patriots only had 33 players under contract for 2013 when the season ended. Even at minimum salaries 14 players will cost between $7M and $10M depending the years of service of guys you sign - the rookie minimum next season is $405k.

    The fact is that even with a good amount of cap space the Patriots will need to cut or renogitiate some players to make all their signings...

     
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    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to Getzo's comment:

    Niners might have the best front 7 on D as well...

    You win and lose the game in the trenches...

    Niners in the SB, and I am not surprised. 




    And a stud RB, TE and LB,    

     
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