Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:



    In general, I would think down two scores in the 2nd half on the road, you want to score quick to cut it down to 7, which would normally be some variation of a hurry up or a shotgun spread.  But once you do that, go back to what you do well, which is running and throwing. I think it just depends.

    I also think if you really wanted to, you could run the hurry up with Vereen as the slot guy and Ridley as your lone setback with Hooman in there.

    We don't really get down early in games. I think that's where part of the problem with the hypothetical lies. They're glossing over the concept of stopping running with a lead, which is really what the issues have been, or not running at all and seeing Gronk not help us to anything like vs Clevalnd.  We go into halftimes up or not down by much at all, usually.

     



    at this point... I just dont see them being dumb enough to pass when having a lead unless the run literally falls apart and by that I mean there are 3-4 defenders at the LOS every time and we cant muster more than 1. consistently.

    if its 1, 4, 2, 3 keep running because eventually.... bam 15 bam 60

 
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:



    ok guys pile on.

    I was the only one that actually tried to anser the question behind this  thread. Stupid me.

    You know it would not be all of a sudden from 70% run to 100% pass...there would be a transition. The times I give are when they are in 2 min mode. All shotgun pass.

     



    actually thank you for answering the right question. most of them read the first part and thought its was all about gronk, which it wasnt. losing gronk makes us worse. duh.

    thequestion was what you answeered and that is when do we finally give up on the run if we have to




    I answered the question....  am I on ignore...?   getting a complex around here.

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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:



    ok guys pile on.

    I was the only one that actually tried to anser the question behind this  thread. Stupid me.

    You know it would not be all of a sudden from 70% run to 100% pass...there would be a transition. The times I give are when they are in 2 min mode. All shotgun pass.

     



    actually thank you for answering the right question. most of them read the first part and thought its was all about gronk, which it wasnt. losing gronk makes us worse. duh.

    thequestion was what you answeered and that is when do we finally give up on the run if we have to




    I answered the question....  am I on ignore...?   getting a complex around here.



    You essentially said never give up on the run...but have some balance..I like that,

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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to coolade2's comment:




    The answer is simple.  blount took it to the house from 70 yards.  If they back up  run it.  whats wrong with 5 -20 yard chunks... with the occasional 70 yarder....?   Passing only stops clock when you throw incomplete.  That is an advantage when you are short on time for sure.  mix it up....!!!!


    and don't get down 17-3...



    Sorry I missed this one. sometimes manuevering around this forum is tough!

    Yeah it sounds good in thought but i doubt Denver backs up the D.

    I see them coming out with 8 in the box and trying to our run attack. If we can run the ball on them with 8 in the box we will score at will. PA pass will open up beyond belief.

    Blount really didn't run it toooo well on Saturday. He had a 70 and 40 yarder. thats 110 on 2 carries. 22 other carries = 70 yards... not too good. but the thing is we kept at the run all day and it finally opened up for the big runs.

    Its all about being effective and sticking to it

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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:




    The answer is simple.  blount took it to the house from 70 yards.  If they back up  run it.  whats wrong with 5 -20 yard chunks... with the occasional 70 yarder....?   Passing only stops clock when you throw incomplete.  That is an advantage when you are short on time for sure.  mix it up....!!!!


    and don't get down 17-3...



    Sorry I missed this one. sometimes manuevering around this forum is tough!

    Yeah it sounds good in thought but i doubt Denver backs up the D.

    I see them coming out with 8 in the box and trying to our run attack. If we can run the ball on them with 8 in the box we will score at will. PA pass will open up beyond belief.

    Blount really didn't run it toooo well on Saturday. He had a 70 and 40 yarder. thats 110 on 2 carries. 22 other carries = 70 yards... not too good. but the thing is we kept at the run all day and it finally opened up for the big runs.

    Its all about being effective and sticking to it




    sticking to it....   when the tendency is to get away from it.  Thats my point.  Its there if you can feel it and call it.  the tendency for the D in that situation is to back up and avoid the big play so getting Blount into space is a good option. ..  either handoff or draw or screen , or safety valve check down.    Get him the ball.   use your backs.  They are arguably the best athletes on the offense right now.

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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to coolade2's comment:




    sticking to it....   when the tendency is to get away from it.  Thats my point.  Its there if you can feel it and call it.  the tendency for the D in that situation is to back up and avoid the big play so getting Blount into space is a good option. ..  either handoff or draw or screen , or safety valve check down.    Get him the ball.   use your backs.  They are arguably the best athletes on the offense right now.



    exaactly. while, to me, Ridley is the best pure runner on this, Blount is easily the best RB in space (which is ironic about a 250 guy but true) and is the boom or bust guy.

    Blount seems to be stuffed alot more at the line if the whole isn't there. If the hole is, he is the most dangerous on our team in the openfield since DBs cant take him down in the open. That's why Ridley has been getting atleast 12 carries a game imo because if the defense starts plugging gaps, he can still find a way to scrap out 3-4 yards and he can bust a 8-10 yarder here and there.

    Vereen needs atleast 8-12 total touches whether it's screens, draws, or direct handoffs he needs the balll too because he has the speed to take it any play

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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    now how exactly can you prove this?



    I don't have to prove anything; 1263 yards, a 4.4 yards per carry and 12 touchdowns (7th best in NFL trending upward) in his 2nd season is the only proof I need.

    Is Ahmad Bradshaw one of the best, because he was ranked 14th in 2012?

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    now how exactly can you prove this?



    I don't have to prove anything; 1263 yards, a 4.4 yards per carry and 12 touchdowns (7th best in NFL trending upward) in his 2nd season is the only proof I need.

    Is Ahmad Bradshaw one of the best, because he was ranked 14th in 2012?



    yup. +100

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?


    Down 17-3 at half time means you are basically the Chargers and your game plan blew. So whatever you were doing you better change it, and fast.

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    Over the last 5 games Blount has averaged 6.2 yards a carry without a turnover. Of course you're going to utilize that kind of effectiveness. It has far less to do with Gronk than it has to do with Blount.

    Meanwhile Ridley has averaged 4.3 over that same span of games.

    This is all simply a no-brainer rather than a reaction to the absence of any player or a change in philosophy. You call the name of those who get it done.

    You run the ball when it is effective to do so. You don't stop at all if it is effective until the very end when stopping the clock is crucial.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    I thought the BB detractors wanted a "balanced offense"? What is balanced about 44 runs to 25 passes?

    I see no complaints about that imbalance.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:

    They won't be giving up on the run and going into open almost all pass catchup mode  until there is 4min left per TD they are behind.

    down 14 when 8 min are left in game

    down 21...12 min left

    down 28 ..1qtr+/- about

     

    although there will be tweeks all along...only way they will get that far behind is turnovers...not game strategy

     



    That's crazy. 14 with 8 to go? You are only realyl guaranteed one possession in that scenario, or two with another being 1-2 minutes ... if you score quickly. 

    They start adjusting the tempo before that because they have to. 

    They will also adjust it if runs aren't netting enough on first and second down. Obviously, they won't be running on 3rd and 7 just to say ... we ran it. 



    Thats nothing Z. How about being down 21 at the 13 minute point from the above post. The Pats would need 3 scores and two Denver 3 and outs which would be a rather high expectation since Denver would allready had already scored 21 points minimum by that point. Down 14 to the best offense in the NFL late in the 3rd would mean the Pats would have to try to extend the game, not shorten it even though that plays to the Broncos strength.



    ok guys pile on.

    I was the only one that actually tried to anser the question behind this  thread. Stupid me.

    You know it would not be all of a sudden from 70% run to 100% pass...there would be a transition. The times I give are when they are in 2 min mode. All shotgun pass.

     



    haha. Sorry about that. You do deserve credit for being the only person to nut up and answer the thread too. I'd say a two score lead causes me to adjust heading into the fourth.

    21+? I'm passing a more out of the gate in the 3rd unless you get the ball to start the half. You need to account for the times the opponent might score, and how many drives you are going to have total. You might only get four or five chances with the ball in an entire half minus one drive. That might mean you need to score on all of them!

    I'm sure people will complain about this, but they've probably already forgotten the famous "drive to nowhere" against the Jests when they allowed New England to chew 10 minutes off the clock running the ball into a 14 point deficit, then clamped down. The funny thing, it likely would have ended in a FG anyhow. It left New England almost no time to come back.

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to ccnsd's comment:


    Down 17-3 at half time means you are basically the Chargers and your game plan blew. So whatever you were doing you better change it, and fast.



    There is that too. 

    But gameplans aren't run pass directives. We know this. 

    If you are losing and not scoring anything, it's deeper than that. It will typically involve making adjustments to your blocking scheme, where that extreme level of disruption can occur. 

    The fact that, eventually, you pass more, has to do with time. You are trading ball security for scorability and more chances at scoring. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from rusco. Show rusco's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:just so you know...I am Russ, not rusty!

    Listening to Felger and Mazz, someone just called in saying losing Gronk was the best thing that happened to this team because we've been forced to run the ball.

      And this guy goes on and on with a yelling rant how running the ball is the way to go and it's what the oline wants to do and how we move the chains effectively.   

    But, then Felger asks him a great question: if they Pats are down 17-3 in the first half, so you continue to run? How long into the game if we are sown 2 scores to them?  He answered, until the mid third.   

    Now the reason I post this thread is because:

    1) this guy could've been rusty lol (nothing against you Russ, just playing around)   

    2) the guy is a little crazy for thinking Gronk being out is good. No way that it is, Gronk made everyone around him so much more lethal. And Gronk would be a huge factor this weekend if healthy but anyways   

    3) the great point here is: how far into the game do we run it? Say the score is 17-6 2nd Q? I say yes.  21-10 2nd Q? Yes  24-10 3rd Q? Early, yes. Late, no  

    So I'm just wondering what the board thinks about this. Saying our offense is scoring only FGs while Denver is putting up TDs, how far do we run the ball into the game if down, if they decide to pound it Sunday.




     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    I thought the BB detractors wanted a "balanced offense"? What is balanced about 44 runs to 25 passes?

    I see no complaints about that imbalance.



    Making up for lost time... and losses.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to ccnsd's comment:


    Down 17-3 at half time means you are basically the Chargers and your game plan blew. So whatever you were doing you better change it, and fast.



    There is that too. 

    But gameplans aren't run pass directives. We know this. 

    If you are losing and not scoring anything, it's deeper than that. It will typically involve making adjustments to your blocking scheme, where that extreme level of disruption can occur. 

    The fact that, eventually, you pass more, has to do with time. You are trading ball security for scorability and more chances at scoring. 



    Down 17-3 might not be gameplan...  could be mistakes (turnovers) like we saw in foxboro.   That shouldn't happen this time.  But your second point is really the truth that a lot of fans miss.

    Passing the ball is inherently more risky.  It doesn't look that way with Brady most times because he has trained himself to avoid picks ,  but clearly more bad stuff can happen when you drop back.  The flip side is you can mke bigger plays and score quickly putting the ball in the air.. aka scoreability.   Taking that chance based on your skill level.  When you are running out of time you have no choice.   Perception is that whenver you are behind , throw...  but really that only is true when you are on your last few drives depending on how many scores you need.

    Conversely, this is kind of why throwing the ball with a 14 point lead appears arrogant and somewhat foolish since it goes aginst this conventional wisdom, and brings in more risk.

     

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    There's no doubt if a healthy gronk were added into the style of play we have today, we would be even more effective. Between his run blocking, ability to squirt out and shoot vertically, and tendency to draw double teams would make everybody's jobs easier. But I do subscibe to the belief that if we had a healthy Gronk all along, i have doubts that Brady would have developed as much patience with the run. Brady to Gronk is just that dominant and you go wtih your best shot in the critical moments. The problem is, good teams know how to take away your best weapons and do it.

    So along those lines, our best weapons today are the running game and edelman. Giving Broncos the benefit of the doubt, I will assume they will take these away. So I'm hoping Amendola and Vereen are working the jugs hard because it's gonna be their turn to step up, make the Horses pay for devoting less resources to them, and open things back up for Blount/Ridley and Edelman.

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to Baffle's comment:

    There's no doubt if a healthy gronk were added into the style of play we have today, we would be even more effective. Between his run blocking, ability to squirt out and shoot vertically, and tendency to draw double teams would make everybody's jobs easier. But I do subscibe to the belief that if we had a healthy Gronk all along, i have doubts that Brady would have developed as much patience with the run. Brady to Gronk is just that dominant and you go wtih your best shot in the critical moments. The problem is, good teams know how to take away your best weapons and do it.

    So along those lines, our best weapons today are the running game and edelman. Giving Broncos the benefit of the doubt, I will assume they will take these away. So I'm hoping Amendola and Vereen are working the jugs hard because it's gonna be their turn to step up, make the Horses pay for devoting less resources to them, and open things back up for Blount/Ridley and Edelman.



    yeah i agree i think you see the broncos hone in on edelman & blount/ridley so it is time for Amendola to step up and be the #1 WR like he was supposed to be. and time for Vereen to kill it

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to ccnsd's comment:


    Down 17-3 at half time means you are basically the Chargers and your game plan blew. So whatever you were doing you better change it, and fast.



    There is that too. 

    But gameplans aren't run pass directives. We know this. 

    If you are losing and not scoring anything, it's deeper than that. It will typically involve making adjustments to your blocking scheme, where that extreme level of disruption can occur. 

    The fact that, eventually, you pass more, has to do with time. You are trading ball security for scorability and more chances at scoring. 



    Down 17-3 might not be gameplan...  could be mistakes (turnovers) like we saw in foxboro.   That shouldn't happen this time.  But your second point is really the truth that a lot of fans miss.

    Passing the ball is inherently more risky.  It doesn't look that way with Brady most times because he has trained himself to avoid picks ,  but clearly more bad stuff can happen when you drop back.  The flip side is you can mke bigger plays and score quickly putting the ball in the air.. aka scoreability.   Taking that chance based on your skill level.  When you are running out of time you have no choice.   Perception is that whenver you are behind , throw...  but really that only is true when you are on your last few drives depending on how many scores you need.

    Conversely, this is kind of why throwing the ball with a 14 point lead appears arrogant and somewhat foolish since it goes aginst this conventional wisdom, and brings in more risk.

     



    That's true. The pats could have 200+ yards of offense with 3 fumbles. I wasn't referring to running or passing either. If you have only scored 3 points against a bad defense at halftime you better be making changes. I would not stick with it for another quarter hoping it starts to work. This is not the Jets offense. You have to assume the Broncos will be scoring 17 more unless Manning got hurt. No one in San Diego right now thinks they should have kept running. No one thinks the Broncos were getting tired. Pretty much everyone agrees the minute Matthews went out it they should have become a passing team, but the Chargers stuck with the game plan. 

     
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    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

     



    That's true. The pats could have 200+ yards of offense with 3 fumbles. I wasn't referring to running or passing either. If you have only scored 3 points against a bad defense at halftime you better be making changes. I would not stick with it for another quarter hoping it starts to work. This is not the Jets offense. You have to assume the Broncos will be scoring 17 more unless Manning got hurt. No one in San Diego right now thinks they should have kept running. No one thinks the Broncos were getting tired. Pretty much everyone agrees the minute Matthews went out it they should have become a passing team, but the Chargers stuck with the game plan. 



    I generally agree with that idea.. what if the half score is 24-13? you still running? say one of Denvers TDs is a KR for TD?

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from bostatewarrior. Show bostatewarrior's posts

    Re: Interesting Question Posed... Thoughts?

    In response to joepatsfan111111's comment:

    Listening to Felger and Mazz, someone just called in saying losing Gronk was the best thing that happened to this team because we've been forced to run the ball.

      And this guy goes on and on with a yelling rant how running the ball is the way to go and it's what the oline wants to do and how we move the chains effectively.   

    But, then Felger asks him a great question: if they Pats are down 17-3 in the first half, so you continue to run? How long into the game if we are sown 2 scores to them?  He answered, until the mid third.   

    Now the reason I post this thread is because:

    1) this guy could've been rusty lol (nothing against you Russ, just playing around)   

    2) the guy is a little crazy for thinking Gronk being out is good. No way that it is, Gronk made everyone around him so much more lethal. And Gronk would be a huge factor this weekend if healthy but anyways   

    3) the great point here is: how far into the game do we run it? Say the score is 17-6 2nd Q? I say yes.  21-10 2nd Q? Yes  24-10 3rd Q? Early, yes. Late, no  

    So I'm just wondering what the board thinks about this. Saying our offense is scoring only FGs while Denver is putting up TDs, how far do we run the ball into the game if down, if they decide to pound it Sunday.



    We run until 2006.  Then we realize that the league just changed the rules to favor the quick strike passing teams.  We respond with a passing attack that uses quick, short passes as a running game substitute.  Now,  we rediscover play action.  

    Running back by committee works!  It's all good.  We don't have our big pass catching TE.  Belichick responds again.  

    If the Pats don't fumble 3 times in the first quarter they won't be 2 scores down.

    The Ravens felt like a scarier team to face than this Sunday.   Not that this isn't a tough game to win.

    Haha.  A little ramble there.  

    I guess the answer is; "it depends".  Bill will know when.

     

     
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