Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : So then It IS less likely to be as cold in Foxboro as it was in Cincy in 1982.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]

    You implied that New England isn't prone to cold weather games (wrong) because it is inland (wrong again).  I never implied that it would be colder this winter at Foxboro than that Bengals game in '82.  But it is very cold at Gillette (right).  Also notoriously windy in the winter (the reason Ghost missed that first FG against Miami).  Only one team has hosted three of the 10 coldest games -GB.  And only one team has hosted two of the 10 coldest games - NE.  

     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : Read the chart again.
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]

    Chris stay away from Rusty's mulled wine.  Look at each drive more closely and you'll see that (1) the first half their situation forced them to throw a lot after trying to run on the first dirve and (2) they used the no-huddle shotgun passing game to get back into things and didn't go to more running with Ridley until the end of the third quarter when they were already back in the game.  Here's what happened on each NE drive:

    First NE drive.  They run Woodhead successfully, then get a successful 15 yard pass to Welker. Drive stalls after they run Ridley on first and 10 for just two yards. Brady throws incomplete to Welker on 2 and 8.  Sure they could have run on second down, but passing isn't a bad call there.  Once that pass was incomplete, they almost had to throw and Brady gets sacked.  

    Second NE drive. Brady's sacked on first down.  Maybe they should have run on first down there, but once the sack happened, throwing gives them the best chance of getting another first down.  Again, fairly logical play calling. 

    Third drive. They go to no huddle . . . probably trying to see if increasing the tempo helps the offensive line.  Doesn't work. Running would have been an option, but this isn't necessarily a bad approach.  

    Fourth drive.  They start with an under-center run (BJGE) for three yards.  I guess Rusty would have come back to the run, but they go shotgun and throw on second down and get six yards. On third and one they stay shotgun and can't complete the pass.  Here Rusty definitely wanted them to run . . . maybe they should have, but when they did run on third and one later in the game they didn't get the first down either. 

    Fifth, sixth, and seventh drives.  Now they're down by 17 points and the second quarter is more than half over (drive five starts at 6:31).  They start throwing to come back.  They're throwing here because there isn't time for a long, run heavy drive before the half. 

    Drive eight (opening the first half).  Almost all throws (just one Ridley run on thrid and one for no gain and one Brady run on fourth down for three yards)--49 yard drives results in field goal. 

    Drive nine. Almost all throws out of shotgun (just one two-yard run from shotgun)--31 yards and a TD. 

    Drive ten. One reverse and three throws from shotgun until they get to the 13, then they run it twice with Ridley (one from shotgun) and once with Brady for a TD.  Forty-one yard drive. 

    Drive eleven. Almost all shotgun plays.  Much throwing, but Ridley mixed in with some nice runs, all but one out of the shotgun.  Seventy-nine yards and a field goal to take the lead.

    Drive twelve. Mostly passing yards (two short runs) till they get to the nine and have a second and four.  Then they run Ridley for a first down and Ridley and Brady for a score. 

    Drive thirteen. Final drive to run out the clock. 

     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : Here's the chart: New England Patriots at 4:36 MIA NWE 1st and 10 at NE 21 N.Solder reported in as eligible. T.Brady sacked at NE 17 for -4 yards (J.Taylor).     2nd and 14 at NE 17 (Shotgun) D.Woodhead left guard to NE 21 for 4 yards (J.Odrick).     3rd and 10 at NE 21 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short right to W.Welker.     4th and 10 at NE 21 Z.Mesko punts 55 yards to MIA 24, Center-D.Aiken. D.Bess to MIA 37 for 13 yards (R.Ninkovich).     DRIVE TOTALS: MIA 3, NE 0, 3 plays, 0 yards, 1:28 elapsed New England Patriots at 2:13 MIA NWE 1st and 10 at NE 10 T.Brady pass incomplete short left to S.Ridley.     2nd and 10 at NE 10 (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle to A.Hernandez to NE 25 for 15 yards (K.Dansby).     1st and 10 at NE 25 (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to A.Hernandez.     2nd and 10 at NE 25 (No Huddle, Shotgun) D.Woodhead left tackle to NE 29 for 4 yards (K.Dansby).     3rd and 6 at NE 29 (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to W.Welker.     4th and 6 at NE 29 Z.Mesko punts 64 yards to MIA 7, Center-D.Aiken. D.Bess MUFFS catch, and recovers at MIA 6. D.Bess to MIA 18 for 12 yards (D.Aiken).     DRIVE TOTALS: MIA 3, NE 0, 5 plays, 19 yards, 1:07 elapsed New England Patriots at 13:45 MIA NWE 1st and 10 at NE 25 B.Green-Ellis right guard to NE 28 for 3 yards (K.Burnett).     2nd and 7 at NE 28 (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle to R.Gronkowski to NE 34 for 6 yards (Y.Bell).     3rd and 1 at NE 34 (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to W.Welker (S.Smith).     4th and 1 at NE 34 Z.Mesko punts 55 yards to MIA 11, Center-D.Aiken, downed by NE-R.Ventrone.     DRIVE TOTALS: MIA 10, NE 0, 3 plays, 19 yards, 1:21 elapsed New England Patriots at 6:31 MIA NWE 1st and 10 at NE 39 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to D.Branch.     2nd and 10 at NE 39 (No Huddle) S.Ridley up the middle to NE 41 for 2 yards (K.Burnett; T.McDaniel).     3rd and 8 at NE 41 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short left to W.Welker.     4th and 13 at NE 36 Z.Mesko punts 51 yards to MIA 13, Center-D.Aiken, fair catch by D.Bess.     DRIVE TOTALS: MIA 17, NE 0, 3 plays, 2 yards, 1:00 elapsed New England Patriots at 3:57 MIA NWE 1st and 10 at NE 28 T.Brady scrambles up the middle to NE 29 for 1 yard (K.Dansby).     2nd and 9 at NE 29 (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to A.Hernandez [R.Starks].     3rd and 9 at NE 29 (Shotgun) T.Brady sacked at NE 26 for -3 yards (C.Wake).     4th and 12 at NE 26 Z.Mesko punts 46 yards to MIA 28, Center-D.Aiken, fair catch by D.Bess.     DRIVE TOTALS: MIA 17, NE 0, 3 plays, -2 yards, 1:12 elapsed New England Patriots at 0:48 MIA NWE 1st and 10 at NE 18 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to R.Gronkowski to NE 27 for 9 yards (K.Burnett).     2nd and 1 at NE 27 (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short right to R.Gronkowski.     3rd and 1 at NE 27 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short right to W.Welker to NE 31 for 4 yards (Y.Bell).       Timeout #2 by NE at 00:20.     1st and 10 at NE 31 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep left to D.Branch to MIA 38 for 31 yards (T.Culver).       Timeout #3 by NE at 00:12.     1st and 10 at MIA 38 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to R.Gronkowski pushed ob at MIA 32 for 6 yards (K.Burnett).     2nd and 4 at MIA 32 S.Gostkowski 51 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Left, Center-D.Aiken, Holder-Z.Mesko.     DRIVE TOTALS: MIA 17, NE 0, 6 plays, 50 yards, 0:45 elapsed   Make sense of that...
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]

    OK, fair enough, you did not see Rusty's original posting of this chart on page one of this thread.  Go back and read that chart, then tell us the passing game saved the running game.

     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : Foxboro ain't on the coast like Kennebunk or Portland, Maine are.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]

    And what NFL teams plays there?  The Portland Penguins?  

    Seriously, if you are going to pick another latitude, why not compare Atlanta - another inland team - to Portland.

    FYI, '66, did you know that the Cape deflects the Gulf Stream away from the Maine coast?  Since you are not good at charts, I have a color picture for you:


     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : I've got Rusty on ignore yet again.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]

    OK, I can understand that.

    Un-ignore him to read the chart.

     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : Chris stay away from Rusty's mulled wine.  Look at each drive more closely and you'll see that (1) the first half their situation forced them to throw a lot after trying to run on the first dirve and (2) they used the no-huddle shotgun passing game to get back into things and didn't go to more running with Ridley until the end of the third quarter when they were already back in the game.  Here's what happened on each NE drive: First NE drive.  They run Woodhead successfully, then get a successful 15 yard pass to Welker. Drive stalls after they run Ridley on first and 10 for just two yards. Brady throws incomplete to Welker on 2 and 8.  Sure they could have run on second down, but passing isn't a bad call there.  Once that pass was incomplete, they almost had to throw and Brady gets sacked.   Second NE drive. Brady's sacked on first down.  Maybe they should have run on first down there, but once the sack happened, throwing gives them the best chance of getting another first down.  Again, fairly logical play calling.  Third drive. They go to no huddle . . . probably trying to see if increasing the tempo helps the offensive line.  Doesn't work. Running would have been an option, but this isn't necessarily a bad approach.   Fourth drive.  They start with an under-center run (BJGE) for three yards.  I guess Rusty would have come back to the run, but they go shotgun and throw on second down and get six yards. On third and one they stay shotgun and can't complete the pass.  Here Rusty definitely wanted them to run . . . maybe they should have, but when they did run on third and one later in the game they didn't get the first down either.  Fifth, sixth, and seventh drives.  Now they're down by 17 points and the second quarter is more than half over (drive five starts at 6:31).  They start throwing to come back.  They're throwing here because there isn't time for a long, run heavy drive before the half.  Drive eight (opening the first half).  Almost all throws (just one Ridley run on thrid and one for no gain and one Brady run on fourth down for three yards)--49 yard drives results in field goal.  Drive nine. Almost all throws out of shotgun (just one two-yard run from shotgun)--31 yards and a TD.  Drive ten. One reverse and three throws from shotgun until they get to the 13, then they run it twice with Ridley (one from shotgun) and once with Brady for a TD.  Forty-one yard drive.  Drive eleven. Almost all shotgun plays.  Much throwing, but Ridley mixed in with some nice runs, all but one out of the shotgun.  Seventy-nine yards and a field goal to take the lead. Drive twelve. Mostly passing yards (two short runs) till they get to the nine and have a second and four.  Then they run Ridley for a first down and Ridley and Brady for a score.  Drive thirteen. Final drive to run out the clock. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]]

    They didn't start to run it again until the third because they were too far down to claw back with a clock-munching run game.  If they had used the run game to get back into the game, they would have lost, just like the Broncos are now losing, or the way the Pats lost to the Jets last January.  But it was the passing game that got them in trouble to begin - not the run game. Make no mistake about that.  The passing game just plain stunk to high heaven in the first half. You are being lead to the incorrect conclusion by the final stats. 

    And it would not only have been better for them to run it more, it would have been better to use Ridley earlier (strong, healthy, wiley), then use Woodhead (wiley) and Benny later. 

     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : ] They didn't start to run it again until the third because they were too far down to claw back with a clock-munching run game.  If they had used the run game to get back into the game, they would have lost, just like the Broncos are now losing, or the way the Pats lost to the Jets last January.   But it was the passing game that got them in trouble to begin - not the run game. Make no mistake about that.  The passing game just plain stunk to high heaven in the first half. You are being lead to the incorrect conclusion by the final stats.  And it would not only have been better for them to run it more, it would have been better to use Ridley earlier (strong, healthy, wiley), then use Woodhead (wiley) and Benny later. 
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]

    Chris, the passing game ran into problems because their O-line was a mess and they couldn't stop the Dolphin's pass rush. Running at the Dolphins may have worked--or it may have been a disaster, because the O-line's run blocking could have been even more messed up than its pass blocking. I trust BB has a better idea what will work with his O-line than Rusty does. But who knows, maybe BB is an idiot.  

    Look, this team is built for the short passing game. They aren't going to feature a mediocre running game in the first half when they have Brady and Welker as their top weapons.  And they are going to use the short passing game a lot in the first half--if nothing else to see if other teams can stop it.  If it doesn't work, then they will adjust.  But coming out with a focus on the run (particularly when you have a defense that gives up lots of long drives) doesn't make sense.  This team needs to score 30 points a game to have a good shot at winning. No one scores 30 points without passing a lot, so the Pats have to test their passing game early and often. 

    All that aside, you can't deny that on Saturday, while they struggled with the spread offense early, it was the spread offense that allowed them to score fast early in the second half and get back into the game. Look at drives eight, nine, and ten.  Should BB have run more then?  I think not.  By passing he was able to score quickly three times and get back into the game.  A nine minute running drive wouldn't have been smart there or in the later part of the first half when they were down by 17. Sure more diversity is great, but until we have great running backs and a weaker pass offense, I don't see BB going in that direction, regardless of what Rusty thinks he should do.  Somehow I trust BB more than Rusty. But who knows, maybe I'm just dumb.  


     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : Sorry, but I skimmed to the bottom of your response (not big on reading personal insults).  I thought the Pats played poorly on D and O in the beginnning of the Miami game.  But it was the D that gave the O short fields.  All the O gave up to that point was 3-and-outs, forcing the D back on the field without enough time to catch wind nor for the coaches to work with the D players to scheme a way out of trouble.   It was only when Wilfork fell on that fumble and gave the O a short field did the momentum turn around.   Who bailed who?
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]
    The question is tough to nail down to be honest, but I'd have to say the game pretty much went the way most of them have...the offense scores 25 plus points and we win by a touchdown. In my opinion, most weeks it's the offense that plays better - and if the defense was on the same level we'd win the Super Bowl this year. Aside from the fact that there are stats that back up who is better, it's really just my opinion that the offense is the better unit.

    As for the personal attacks, I find them fulfilling to do when a person calls me (and many others) dumb simply because we won't get behind his agenda. It's really nothing personal (I don't really think his mother left him outside on cold nights as an infant - someone would of called the cops - although there is a chance there was a little bit of Grand dad's cough medicine in the eggnog).
     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

     Don't worry guys. King is just upset that the Pats came back and won. He was so ready to give everyone the "I told you so" about Brady being the problem. Notice how quiet he is about McCourty being better than Revis these past few weeks. What is scary is that might have been McCourty's best game of the year.
     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE] Don't worry guys. King is just upset that the Pats came back and won. He was so ready to give everyone the "I told you so" about Brady being the problem. Notice how quiet he is about McCourty being better than Revis these past few weeks. What is scary is that might have been McCourty's best game of the year.
    Posted by ccnsd[/QUOTE]

    The fact that that guy said that McCourty was better than Revis is enough to discredit anything he says. He also said that Cunningham is better than Dunlap...our defense is better than our offense and that Alex Smith is playing better than Brady.

    What he tends to do is fall prisoner to his agenda and then when it gets embarrassing enough he just deletes his own account so there's no evidence of his stupidity. He'll also pick fights and talks trash with opposing team's fans and then won't stick around to face the music if we lose. Last year the boards were flooded with Jet's fans wanting a piece of Rusty, but all of us had to take the brunt of it - he was nowhere to be found for 2 weeks...it's kind of pathetic.
     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : If we had an "average" defense and an "average" running game, we would be the superbowl favorites.........
    Posted by SmokingJoe[/QUOTE]

    How many years have many of us been asking the same question? How many year have the drafted  lousy defensive players, when they drafted defensive players at all.
     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : And what NFL teams plays there?  The Portland Penguins?   Seriously, if you are going to pick another latitude, why not compare Atlanta - another inland team - to Portland. FYI, '66, did you know that the Cape deflects the Gulf Stream away from the Maine coast?  Since you are not good at charts, I have a color picture for you:
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]

    Maybe when you are down by so many points at the half, you need to  go the pass to catch up, and make the game close
     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss : Chris, the passing game ran into problems because their O-line was a mess and they couldn't stop the Dolphin's pass rush. Running at the Dolphins may have worked--or it may have been a disaster, because the O-line's run blocking could have been even more messed up than its pass blocking. I trust BB has a better idea what will work with his O-line than Rusty does. But who knows, maybe BB is an idiot.   Look, this team is built for the short passing game. They aren't going to feature a mediocre running game in the first half when they have Brady and Welker as their top weapons.  And they are going to use the short passing game a lot in the first half--if nothing else to see if other teams can stop it.  If it doesn't work, then they will adjust.  But coming out with a focus on the run (particularly when you have a defense that gives up lots of long drives) doesn't make sense.  This team needs to score 30 points a game to have a good shot at winning. No one scores 30 points without passing a lot, so the Pats have to test their passing game early and often.  All that aside, you can't deny that on Saturday, while they struggled with the spread offense early, it was the spread offense that allowed them to score fast early in the second half and get back into the game. Look at drives eight, nine, and ten.  Should BB have run more then?  I think not.  By passing he was able to score quickly three times and get back into the game.  A nine minute running drive wouldn't have been smart there or in the later part of the first half when they were down by 17. Sure more diversity is great, but until we have great running backs and a weaker pass offense, I don't see BB going in that direction, regardless of what Rusty thinks he should do.  Somehow I trust BB more than Rusty. But who knows, maybe I'm just dumb.  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    The fact that anyone would damn the offense for that slow start is ridiculous! We were missing our starting left tackle - and this was discovered right before kickoff. Then the guy that takes his position gets hurt 5 minutes into the game - when all was said and done 3 out of the 5 starters were missing and despite this the offense still won that game for us. 

    The fact of the matter is that they did try to run it early and it lead to unmanageable 3rd and longs - not a good combination when you have only one projected starter playing on your offensive line. I think most of New England and Brady himself wishes they could of just pounded the football early in that game, but they couldn't. The passing game is what eventually got them back into the game and then when their defense was exhausted, we were able run it and be balanced.

    The thing that really is bothersome is the fact that you could see that when our offense is not on it's game, the defense will not steal a game for us. The offense has bailed the D out all year and all we needed was a half of good defense until we settled down - didn't happen - they let a historically bad offense score 17 points...at home...in the cold...on Christmas eve.

    The Dolphins were a team that had holiday roasts on their minds and were shivering on the sidelines. And what does this secondary do? Leave spaces that Santa could of completed passes in. How the heck does Brady and O'Brien get pegged for what this defense allowed in that first half? I know they were terrible, but they had a legitimate excuse on this one. What was the defense's excuse for letting that offense rip off 17 points? There was no turnovers - our defense allowed them to go up and down the field.

    Hopefully in the playoffs we will face an offense that will under throw balls to guys wide open in the endzone. Hopefully their QB will be so incompetent to not handle a snap while he is directly under center. We can hope their offensive coordinator won't realize that they can run it on us, as well as throw it. Maybe their high priced wideout will flat out drop the ball on crucial third and sevens. Maybe Spikes and Chung will make a huge difference when they come back? Here's to hope.
     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    To nobody in particular,

    Nobody here can seem to explain the multiple personality disorder of our defense, all many can say is that it "stinks" and that the offense has saved it so often. Yet when the offense is converting first downs, not touchdowns mind you, but first downs the defense has been very solid.  Too many here dismiss or don't even acknowledge how all three phases work together, instead they look to blame one side or the other for sloppy play.

    The defense took some rebuilding after our last Super Bowl appearance, we've asked our offense to shoulder the burden of keeping us afloat while these young guys on defense learn how to win. A first half that reads; punt, punt, punt, punt etc... isn't exactly doing it's job. The offense should be converting first downs, we don't have to score on every play.  I'm not asking for an inordinate amount of running plays to be called, I'm simply hoping that the offense will be less predictable and we will move the football and eat up some clock, maybe even put ourselves in good field position. 

    You can blame injuries on the offensive line for that first half, but then what happened in the 2nd half?  This offense with Tom Brady running the no huddle would score points regardless of who has the title of offensive coordinator, under those circumstances Tom is calling his own plays.  

    But if your own two eyes can't see the lack of inventiveness with our play calling from the sideline then prepare to be bounced from the playoffs yet again and prepare your "the defense stinks" argument.  

    We used to grind it out on offense the way the 49ers do, we used to protect our offense from itself, we used to run whether we got 5 yards or not, I can't remember Charlie Weis ever sending in a pass play on 3rd and one, probably because if he did we converted it.  In my opinion we are too greedy, looking way down field when instead we should be concentrating on getting ten yards for a first down.

    Move the ball methodically down the field, keep our young defense off the field, the defense played almost the entire first half on the field while our O watched from the sideline. That is a failure.
     
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    Re: Interesting Stat from Mike Reiss

    I just don't know how much longer we are going to call our defense young, at least we don't call them young and exciting anymore. The "rebuilding" of this defense took place after 07, next week it will be 2012....that's an eternity in the NFL. We have spent roughly 6 second round picks on defense in that time and almost as many 3rd's. We gave Bodden a 30 million dollar contract.

    It's ok to recognize it didn't work, it's even ok to NOT admit it didn't work, but when you place the blame on a hall of fame QB and high scoring offense...that's not right.
     
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