Interesting take on Pats cap position

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    Re: Interesting take on Pats cap position

    In response to RockScully's comment:

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:


    In response to RockScully's comment:


    Parcells is a moron in the cap era. He never did anything good whatsoever in terms of building a team as a GM. He failed with the Jets, Dallas (not all his fault) and Miami.

    Learn your history and state facts.

    The Giants absolutely have not been drafting the same way at all since the 1970s.  The Raiders have, maybe the Cowboys, the Jets and all other poorly run teams who are still crappy.

    BB invented salary allocation under a cap per position and it's worked swimmingly for over a decade.  The salary cap was not in existence when BB or Parcells were in with the NYGs.

    Since Parcells and BB separated only one has proven to master the cap era's dynamics.  The genius himself, BB.  Not debatable anymore.  Christ, the Boston Bruins just won a Cup simply by Chiarelli mirroring what BB does with the Pats. Trade while stock is high, don't let the market play you, develop from within, etc. Parcells drafted low IQ, low character types and his salary allocation was horrendous.  The trade for Brandon Marshall and the money they paid him was an all time debacle for the ages and shows he had no clue.

    Once you read Pats Management Secrets Volume I and II, you'll learn that these concepts started in Cleveland in 1991 once it was well know the salary cap would become a reality in 1993.  The proof is in the pudding.

    NE is the franchise people try to copy, not the Giants. Absolute fact.  It's been corroborated over and over for years now.




    I actually think BB once was a cap genuis. When the cap was set up in a way that good players (like Vrabel) would get cut for salary reasons no one was better at finding those "value" guys. I am not sure that he has had the same luck since.

    Who has come in from another team via free agency and really thrived in NE since the days of Seau and the Harrison? He has brought in a handful of big names (Adilius Thomas, Rosie Colvin) and plenty of reclamation projects that flopped (Haynesworth, Ochocinco). Even the 'value' free agents  (Fanene, Gregory) have not really panned out. Lloyd actually did better than most putting up his second best season in terms of reception, third best in terms of yards, sixth best in TDs and a career low in yards per catch.

    So long as you measure success by any metric other than championships the Patriots are the most successful team from 2005-2012. What team has won a Super Bowl using the "Patriot" model if teams like the Steelers and Giants do not use it? They account for half of the Super Bowl titles since 2004. That leaves the Packers, the Saints, the Colts and who ever wins this year.


    Pitt and NYGs were BEHIND what BB had when BB formed a dynasty here.


    That's like saying what did Pitt or NY do from 2001-2004?  Nothing, really. They choked or came up short with flawed teams.

    Meanwhile, since 2005, BB has had his teams in 2 SBs.  One was a loaded team that underperformed against one of the luckiest plays in sports history.  Oh well. That's sports.

    Last year, again, it's hard to ignore, but Brady sort of let the team down a bit with a weak 4th qtr with a lead. 

    But, since 2010 in particular, the lockout, the cap really settling to 2009 levels (around 120 mil) and having no choice but to pay the best players strong deals, BB's creativity iin this area is actually a much more difficult thing to pull off.


    spin away Queenie...u r certainly a genius at one thing and it's doing anything and everything to support your agenda, to the point of ridiculousness

    u gotta work in PR somewhere or in the past because ur inate or learned ability to use spin, selective facts, pseudo-context and the convenient ignoring of counter arguments is truly a marvel to behold

    you will NEVER get it but i'll say it one more time and then u can do all ur wonderous research and homework for yourself:

    the NYG have drafted the same way with the same philosophy economically and otherwise before the cap ever existed, thru 3 generations of ownership by the Mara family...all the things Young and then Young and Parcells did 30 years ago is exactly what Bill Bellichick has done recently and the Giants continue to draft this way and structure contracts this way and sign free agents this way etc....from Young to Young/Parcells to Acorsi to Reese-that's why they have had success, why they are never in cap trouble and why they haven't had many long term downturns in the pst 30 years

    and the idea that the way BB does things is the only way to be successful at cap management-especially when there are different ways organizations work the cap due to their competition and need and philosophy-is ridiculous at any level-if u think long time successful franchises like the giants and steelers sit around copying bill bellichick that's a fantasy in ur head with no basis whatsoever in fact, just convenient nonsense you rant

    see the idea of taking the best player regardless of position, trading up for multiple picks, drafting for depth at key positions and letting high priced stars go a year too early than late and plugging in rookies without a significant drop in continuity-all giant and i am sure other organzations "blue print" for a loooong time before bill bellchick ever picked a player or walked a sideline as HC-believe it or not teams even passed the ball and kicked FG's before bellichick too

    hey it's no embarrassment to learn from the Master...even Michaelangelo learned from someone after all  :  )

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    Re: Interesting take on Pats cap position

    Here was something I wanted to touch on in light of the latest John Clayton report that pegged the Jets at -19.4 million in cap room (which is around the real number) that again brings on the discussion of poor cap management. There was also a rumor thrown out there that the Jets salary cap is scaring GM’s off. As I began writing it I also saw that Mike Westhoff criticized the Jets salary structure saying the top heavy pay hurt his unit so I figure I can address that as well.

    I think most of my readers know that I really love this salary cap stuff and try to take a much more analytical approach than just spewing out some numbers (though I do that too) with no context. There is a big picture with the way the Jets have been run for the past few seasons. When people criticize the cap management in particular they are pointing at a few players- David Harris, Santonio Holmes, Antonio Cromartie, Mark Sanchez, Bart Scott, and Calvin Pace.

    As you go back to 2011 when the Jets began re-signing their players, the goal was to maintain as much talent at the top of the roster in an affordable fashion. People tend to forget that the Jets got Bart Scott to agree to a major paycut over a two year period while Pace reshuffled money to his walk season that essentially amounted to a paycut as well. The Jets tried to extend a window of opportunity that admittedly was not there. But they did not go all in on anyone, other than D’Brickashaw Ferguson, for the long term. Most of the time when you do what the Jets attempted to do you give large prorated bonuses to players. Dallas does that all the time. So does Oakland. That creates long term problems. The Jets managed their contracts in way that they had options open to them at all times in the event the team did not meet expectations.

    Large amounts of prorated money completely inhibits your chance to trade a player due to the large cap hits it would incur. Other than Sanchez, whose extension I will never understand, every piece of the puzzle was a tradeable asset to help get the cap back in order at any time, specifically with an eye on 2013 when the guaranteed salary was just for one more season for most players. So it is not as if the Jets never prepared for this contingency in 2013. Were there some mistakes and miscalculations? Sure. But to read that the Jets need Omar Khan, who comes from an organization that tiptoes the cap every year by prorating future salary to players, to get the house in order is just not true. That doesn’t mean he would be a bad General Manager or anything like that. It’s just that the situation was never as dire as people think because of that -19.4 million dollar figure.

    Now I don’t think the Jets ever thought that someone like Holmes would do so poorly or that Harris and Scott would be so bad that they had limited, if any, trade value. I think it’s clear the Jets shopped Scott in 2012 and found no takers for his salary. Im sure in 2011 they never imagined he would look so slow. There was no reason to. As it was they were incredibly proactive in saying he was not deserving of the salary he was supposed to earn. Put yourself in the Jets shoes in the summer of 2011. What signing that year made you think “what are they doing”. I personally thought Harris was way overpaid, but I think I was in the minority. Sanchez is the one “what are they doing” candidate but that was in 2012, and even then imagine if the Jets went the full prorated money route? You would be stuck with him through the 2014 season. At least now they can move on after this upcoming year.

    Here’s the thing. If the Jets trade Antonio Cromartie tomorrow and create $8.25 million in cap room do they then get credit for being managed well? They should because it was part of the plan when they initially signed him. But will they? No. The talk will be that they traded him because they had no options because the cap was in such bad shape. If the Jets release Sione Pouha and create cap space with inimal dead cap implications will anyone say that that was well managed? Nope. But it was.

    It really comes down to personnel evaluation. The Jets should have seen Harris running that interception back against New England and come to grips with the fact that he is slow as dirt. Most people who really sit down and analyze the play of the Jets said for years that he was as much of a success as he was because of the players he was playing with. I think they should have seen more potential downside in Holmes as there was perhaps a more happy medium in terms of prorated vs guaranteed money. But the Jets have built in flexibility beyond the normal “cut Jason Smith” that actually speaks well of the job they do behind the scenes in actual planning and management.

    As for a General Manager being scared away from it? Why. I would think that if anything it makes the job more challenging. The Jets can create a lot of cap room if they want by keeping certain players here for longer periods of time. Or the new GM can blow it up and field a young team on a low payroll and then get ready to put his fingerprints all over the organization in 2014. This is not the Oakland Raiders where you inherit a team as GM that you really cant get out of for three or four years. I would think any GM worth their keep loves challenging situations and the opportunity to do something special. I think that’s a bogus story floated for whatever reasons.

    Finally, Mike Westhoff I think does have a point about the lack of depth due to high salaries at the top of the roster to an extent. The Jets put more cap money into their starters than any team in the NFL, but again it really comes down to personnel. From a cap perspective I think the high spend on starters limits the Jets in two areas. One is that they are going to not be able to bring in that special teams ace type player on a $2 million dollar deal. They cant afford that in their cap structure because they cant really keep guys around that cant play regular downs. Secondly it puts them in a position where the minimum salary rookie that needs to learn a system has more opportunity to make a team than the 3rd year pro who has no upside as a regular player but has a role on specials that he understands and accepts. Im sure those kind of players make life much easier on Westhoff.

    But, leaguewide most teams have specials filled with minimum salary guys. The Jets have just done poorly in developing or identifying their minimum salary players. If you see a team with $10 million in cap room I can guarantee you that the makeup of their special teams unit is nearly identical to that of the Jets with under $4 million in cap room. Does anyone think the Bengals, with bazillion of dollars in cap room, are saying to themselves since we don’t spend high on the top we will make up for it with great depth and a special teams filled with guys making around a million a year? Come on. They simply don’t spend the money period. The Jets do.

    Now I think more of a case can be made that the high spend of starters impacts the defense and offense because if injury occurs or you get ineffective players you have nowhere to turn since you are filling that middle roster with castoffs and rookies. But that wasn’t Westhoff’s point. While the Jets cap certainly will need some work and maybe some of the mentality on overspending on certain positions, such as corner and inside linebacker, needs to change, the focus on that aspect of the organizations problems is just avoiding the real issues which come evaluating the talent.        

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    Re: Interesting take on Pats cap position

    Parcells as a GM...Demarcus Ware, John Abraham, Cameron Wake, Shaun Ellis, Chad Pennington, Willie McGinest, Drew Bledsoe, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Curtis Martin, Troy Brown.

    Yeah the guy was terrible. Lol!!

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    Re: Interesting take on Pats cap position

    In response to PhatRex's comment:


    In response to mthurl's comment:


    Parcells as a GM...Demarcus Ware, John Abraham, Cameron Wake, Shaun Ellis, Chad Pennington, Willie McGinest, Drew Bledsoe, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Curtis Martin, Troy Brown.

    Yeah the guy was terrible. Lol!!


    Drafting Keyshawn, then trading him for two number ones.  The invention of the poison pill with Curtis.  Saving BB from never getting another coaching job again after his complete failure in Cleveland. 



    Well, he didn't draft that time he was in NE when the Patriots selected Glenn 6 selections later. He didn't select Glenn either, that was Grier and a power move by Kraft that lead to his eventual departure. Parcells wanted Brackens I believe at that spot - and I want to say Brackens ended up having a pretty darn good career for the Jaguars. I believe his plan was Brackens (or maybe Clemons) to shore up the defensive line and then Mushin Mohahmad in the second. By the time the second round rolled around Parcells had barricaded himself in his office and Grier took over the draft.


    But you're right, he did get two firsts for Keyshawn (who was a hell of a player at the time). I'm not exactly a big fan of Parcells for the way he left here, but the guy knew what a defensive lineman was supposed to look like...he is on record as saying he would have given up almost anything to draft Wilfork...and this is when Wilfork was a sophomore. At the time he said Wilfork was a guy that you could build your entire defense around - I totally agreed at the time and I was completely shocked when he fell to us. I watched that guy go through triple blocks against BC one night, he couldn't be blocked.

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    Re: Interesting take on Pats cap position

    In response to RockScully's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:


    Parcells as a GM...Demarcus Ware, John Abraham, Cameron Wake, Shaun Ellis, Chad Pennington, Willie McGinest, Drew Bledsoe, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Curtis Martin, Troy Brown.

    Yeah the guy was terrible. Lol!!


    Parcells was not the GM of the Patriots. That's why he LEFT the PAtriots.  Bledsoe and McGinest were also top 5 picks.


    Gee, thanks for not blocking good top 5 picks, Bill. LOL!

    Chad Pennington?  He had a noodle arm for crying out loud. He never had a chance in the NFL.    Also, Jerry Jones is the lead GM of the Cowboys.  Parcells did not draft Ware.

    Yes, he was terrible. He singlehandedly demolished the Dolphins organization.  One of the worst trades in NFL history was 2 1st rd picks for Brandon Marshall. Tears!

    Speaking of wakes, can you even name one organization he didn't leave with a path of destruction in his wake?  Jets, Cowboys, Dolphins. All got better in the personnel/cap department after he left.

    He has absolutely no crowning achievements as lead GM. Zero. Zilch. 

    He picked the players here until Kraft pulled a unexpected power move on him minutes before the pats selected a some research you tool bag. Parcells is the guy who interviewed and decided to select Bledsoe over Mirrer. He brought in half a million guys fron the Giants. He signed that center away from the Dolphins. He was our GM until that Saturday morning when Kraft decided to stand by Grier and allow him to select Glenn over Parcell's choice Tony Brackens.

    "Wake" up, you're an embarrassement to yourself and Patriot fans worldwide.

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    Re: Interesting take on Pats cap position

    rocks for brains, raise the white flag already. phat rex is bludgeoning you to a slow death again...for crying out loud, stop typing and take that foot out of your mouth!

    and get rid of that creepy avatar!

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