is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    Should Martin have sat down with his head Coach to discuss this on-going issue before blowing it up?



    Martin didn't blow it up, all he did was leave the team! Matter of FACT, and I mean a real FACT not the speculations you put out as fact, Martin hasn't said anything.




    He never met with his Coach

    He went directly to his "representatives" who ever they are.

    His "representatives" gave the "evidence" to the Dolphins and the media.

    So Martin did "speak" I don't play semantics....Martin talking through his "representatives" is still Martin talking.

    His doing this this in the manner it was done has certainly "blown" it all up thru the media and if he's OK with it...that's fine...as long as he knows his career is now over.

    And he was a borderline talent to begin with, with the weakness of a crybaby who never possessed not only the talent but the mental toughness to survive in the violent business of the NFL.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    There are few things in life that are as straightforward as they appear.  This may be one of them.

    With respect to Incognito - I won't label him except to say that from his actions he appears to be a malignant presence in the locker room.  I wouldn't want him to be a part of any organization with which I am associated.

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.

    The question of the culture of an NFL locker room has been mentioned more than once in this thread.  As is the case with many professions it takes a special kind of human being to be a successful player in the NFL, regardless of position.  One must have the physical skills, of course.  But one also must be emotionally and psychologically suited for participation in a sport at its highest level that is physical beyond description, violent and relies on men imposing their physical and mental superiority over other men.  Is Martin physically suited for the NFL?  It would appear so.  Is he emotionally and pyschologically suited?  I'm not certain.

    Does any of this mean that Incognito gets a pass?  Abso-flippin-lutely not and the rectum vent should be expelled from the game.

    My 2 cents.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to Sobchack's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    The NFL is a private club, hence, if you don't like it you are free to go somewhere else. It's a hard locker room mentality, and has been from the beginning, with a group of players that can be rough around the edges. They all do it and many teams will even tell you TB himself is one of the biggest trash talkers during live action. Sure it's a rough way to make a living but if you’re a drama queen you picked the wrong way to make a living.

    Martin could have simply said "this ain't for me" and moved on and left it behind. He's out to make a personal and political statement and intends to force the PC world into the private clubs that is the NFL.

    If this is not his agenda then why is it he has kept all of the "evidence" regarding this "bullying" situation from day one as if he planned on building a case all along. He could have been learning the playbook, and how to be a better lineman, but he chose to build a "case" rather than accept the rookie treatment, become accepted, and move on.

    This OMG PC mentality is why kids can't play dodge ball anymore and some little leagues don't keep score because losing hurts kids feelings.

    The PC crowd is running amuck in this country and if it permeates the NFL then the game will be permanently harmed... and for what?

    I know I have said I will leave my political views at the door here but I am making an exception here. Not trying to bruise feelings here but I’ve grown tired of some who say their views and beliefs trump what others believe to the point where they begin to control my life. I have no use for the thought police.

    I suppose I have said enough.

     

     

     



    Sorry to disagree."Private club" in the NFL, a multibillion dollar FOR-proft industry with guys who earn in the top 1 percent to "entertain" people does not apply.  Yeah, it's a bunch of big guys in a room.  But, this is not the military, the police, or the fire department - in those organizations you are talking about people who are putting their lives on the line so the pressure to "bully" and the "mass mentality" and the "silence" can somehwat be justfied because of what's at stake.

    Martin was called a racial slur, likely more than once.  Inexcusable and digusting.  Could he have gone upstairs in the org to deal with it privately?  Sure.  Why didn't other players step in and tell the idiot Incognito to tone it down?  I think we all need to see all the facts as they come out before we rush to any kind of conclusions.  It certainly can be that Martin feels it's necessary to expose an undercurrent of racism in the league by going public.  I don't know.  It's one thing to rib a rookie and make him pay for meals and carry your equipment, another to call him racial or ethnic or religious slurs.  

    What I'm hoping to hear is what other African-American players on Miami have to say about this.  I think we'll get closer to what's really going on here.  

    I know what you mean about a hyper-aware PC culture we live in, but we surely can past blatant racial attacks.  That's one thing that American society must be above.




    I work in an industry with a lot of minorities. I am shocked at how they, 20 something year olds, throw around the N word with each other. The first time I saw this I backed off thinking a fight was about to break out...nope..they were just riding each other...white, black and hispanic...they all did it.

    At 59 I don't get it nor understood it...made me nervous as to my generation this was a really bad thing. Over time I asked the group why use that word in jest? How can it be used that way? They had no real answer but certainly the word is used now in some sort of jousting. I myself would not go there...59 year old men aren't "cool"

    That being said...I would like to see the entire timeline of what was said and how it was said. I would also be curious as to how the players talk to each other in locker rooms...you know it's not G rated. The problem with certain "language" is what is acceptable one day may not be the next and what's funny to some ain't to others.

    I could not survive in the violent world of the NFL, not many can. Martin should have realized this early on and used he degree to work in a more friendly place (for him)

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to Sobchack's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    The NFL is a private club, hence, if you don't like it you are free to go somewhere else. It's a hard locker room mentality, and has been from the beginning, with a group of players that can be rough around the edges. They all do it and many teams will even tell you TB himself is one of the biggest trash talkers during live action. Sure it's a rough way to make a living but if you’re a drama queen you picked the wrong way to make a living.

    Martin could have simply said "this ain't for me" and moved on and left it behind. He's out to make a personal and political statement and intends to force the PC world into the private clubs that is the NFL.

    If this is not his agenda then why is it he has kept all of the "evidence" regarding this "bullying" situation from day one as if he planned on building a case all along. He could have been learning the playbook, and how to be a better lineman, but he chose to build a "case" rather than accept the rookie treatment, become accepted, and move on.

    This OMG PC mentality is why kids can't play dodge ball anymore and some little leagues don't keep score because losing hurts kids feelings.

    The PC crowd is running amuck in this country and if it permeates the NFL then the game will be permanently harmed... and for what?

    I know I have said I will leave my political views at the door here but I am making an exception here. Not trying to bruise feelings here but I’ve grown tired of some who say their views and beliefs trump what others believe to the point where they begin to control my life. I have no use for the thought police.

    I suppose I have said enough.

     

     

     



    Sorry to disagree."Private club" in the NFL, a multibillion dollar FOR-proft industry with guys who earn in the top 1 percent to "entertain" people does not apply.  Yeah, it's a bunch of big guys in a room.  But, this is not the military, the police, or the fire department - in those organizations you are talking about people who are putting their lives on the line so the pressure to "bully" and the "mass mentality" and the "silence" can somehwat be justfied because of what's at stake.

    Martin was called a racial slur, likely more than once.  Inexcusable and digusting.  Could he have gone upstairs in the org to deal with it privately?  Sure.  Why didn't other players step in and tell the idiot Incognito to tone it down?  I think we all need to see all the facts as they come out before we rush to any kind of conclusions.  It certainly can be that Martin feels it's necessary to expose an undercurrent of racism in the league by going public.  I don't know.  It's one thing to rib a rookie and make him pay for meals and carry your equipment, another to call him racial or ethnic or religious slurs.  

    What I'm hoping to hear is what other African-American players on Miami have to say about this.  I think we'll get closer to what's really going on here.  

    I know what you mean about a hyper-aware PC culture we live in, but we surely can past blatant racial attacks.  That's one thing that American society must be above.



    I've never been a firefighter nor a policeman but I have been in the military and I can tell you in the units I was in, bullying wasn't tolerated by any of us.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    Should Martin have sat down with his head Coach to discuss this on-going issue before blowing it up?



    Martin didn't blow it up, all he did was leave the team! Matter of FACT, and I mean a real FACT not the speculations you put out as fact, Martin hasn't said anything.




    He never met with his Coach

    He went directly to his "representatives" who ever they are.

    His "representatives" gave the "evidence" to the Dolphins and the media.

    So Martin did "speak" I don't play semantics....Martin talking through his "representatives" is still Martin talking.

    His doing this this in the manner it was done has certainly "blown" it all up thru the media and if he's OK with it...that's fine...as long as he knows his career is now over.

    And he was a borderline talent to begin with, with the weakness of a crybaby who never possessed not only the talent but the mental toughness to survive in the violent business of the NFL.




    Martin's representitives didn't say anything till the "smear Martin" campaign started by Incognito and, by default, the Dolphins was in full swing.

    You don't know if he was a borderline talent, he was a second year player. You are just dismissing him because he is more intelligent than you.

    And why are you defending the actions of a reprehensible jerk that isn't worth the water in his body!

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    Jesus..Mary and Joseph...some are still trying to tie the new PC catch phrase "bullying" to the NFL...where "bullying" and beating down your opponent is the SOP.

    Oh well,,,everything else in life has been "wussified" so I guess it was a matter of time before they got around to the NFL.

    Once they get their way and turn the NFL into the pass the grey poupon league I'm turning off the TV.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    Should Martin have sat down with his head Coach to discuss this on-going issue before blowing it up?



    Martin didn't blow it up, all he did was leave the team! Matter of FACT, and I mean a real FACT not the speculations you put out as fact, Martin hasn't said anything.




    He never met with his Coach

    He went directly to his "representatives" who ever they are.

    His "representatives" gave the "evidence" to the Dolphins and the media.

    So Martin did "speak" I don't play semantics....Martin talking through his "representatives" is still Martin talking.

    His doing this this in the manner it was done has certainly "blown" it all up thru the media and if he's OK with it...that's fine...as long as he knows his career is now over.

    And he was a borderline talent to begin with, with the weakness of a crybaby who never possessed not only the talent but the mental toughness to survive in the violent business of the NFL.




    Martin's representitives didn't say anything till the "smear Martin" campaign started by Incognito and, by default, the Dolphins was in full swing.

    You don't know if he was a borderline talent, he was a second year player. You are just dismissing him because he is more intelligent than you.

    And why are you defending the actions of a reprehensible jerk that isn't worth the water in his body!

     




    Listen...Broomhilda...I wiped the floor with you after your ridiculous "Gronk don't even have an infection" post. I am rather busy with work issues again but certainly could find the time to dope slap you one more time....hope that wasn't too "insensitive" for you.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    In response to Sobchack's comment:

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    The NFL is a private club, hence, if you don't like it you are free to go somewhere else. It's a hard locker room mentality, and has been from the beginning, with a group of players that can be rough around the edges. They all do it and many teams will even tell you TB himself is one of the biggest trash talkers during live action. Sure it's a rough way to make a living but if you’re a drama queen you picked the wrong way to make a living.

    Martin could have simply said "this ain't for me" and moved on and left it behind. He's out to make a personal and political statement and intends to force the PC world into the private clubs that is the NFL.

    If this is not his agenda then why is it he has kept all of the "evidence" regarding this "bullying" situation from day one as if he planned on building a case all along. He could have been learning the playbook, and how to be a better lineman, but he chose to build a "case" rather than accept the rookie treatment, become accepted, and move on.

    This OMG PC mentality is why kids can't play dodge ball anymore and some little leagues don't keep score because losing hurts kids feelings.

    The PC crowd is running amuck in this country and if it permeates the NFL then the game will be permanently harmed... and for what?

    I know I have said I will leave my political views at the door here but I am making an exception here. Not trying to bruise feelings here but I’ve grown tired of some who say their views and beliefs trump what others believe to the point where they begin to control my life. I have no use for the thought police.

    I suppose I have said enough. 



    Sorry to disagree."Private club" in the NFL, a multibillion dollar FOR-proft industry with guys who earn in the top 1 percent to "entertain" people does not apply.  Yeah, it's a bunch of big guys in a room.  But, this is not the military, the police, or the fire department - in those organizations you are talking about people who are putting their lives on the line so the pressure to "bully" and the "mass mentality" and the "silence" can somehwat be justfied because of what's at stake.

    Martin was called a racial slur, likely more than once.  Inexcusable and digusting.  Could he have gone upstairs in the org to deal with it privately?  Sure.  Why didn't other players step in and tell the idiot Incognito to tone it down?  I think we all need to see all the facts as they come out before we rush to any kind of conclusions.  It certainly can be that Martin feels it's necessary to expose an undercurrent of racism in the league by going public.  I don't know.  It's one thing to rib a rookie and make him pay for meals and carry your equipment, another to call him racial or ethnic or religious slurs.  

    What I'm hoping to hear is what other African-American players on Miami have to say about this.  I think we'll get closer to what's really going on here.  

    I know what you mean about a hyper-aware PC culture we live in, but we surely can past blatant racial attacks.  That's one thing that American society must be above.



    I've never been a firefighter nor a policeman but I have been in the military and I can tell you in the units I was in, bullying wasn't tolerated by any of us.



    I'm a retired Navy submariner.  In my early Navy days (diesel boats) I witnessed behavior that I would characterize as bullying and it was largely ignored.  I'm not talking about the good-natured ribbing that young sailors who had yet to qualify in submarines were subjected to (generally referred to as non-qualified pukes or NQPs) but some pretty rough stuff with clearly racial overtones.  That was in the mid 60s.  Over the years as the Navy essentially grew up from a behavioral standpoint the kind of behavior that I witnessed in the early days simply faded away.  Why it did is a function of several factors, among them: societal changes, proactive, involved leadership and DOD policies which spelled out quite clearly what actions were and what actions were not acceptable. 

    The degree to which Incognito was able to take his behavior indicates to me that some or all of the above was lacking in that locker room. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    There are few things in life that are as straightforward as they appear.  This may be one of them.

    With respect to Incognito - I won't label him except to say that from his actions he appears to be a malignant presence in the locker room.  I wouldn't want him to be a part of any organization with which I am associated.

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.

    The question of the culture of an NFL locker room has been mentioned more than once in this thread.  As is the case with many professions it takes a special kind of human being to be a successful player in the NFL, regardless of position.  One must have the physical skills, of course.  But one also must be emotionally and psychologically suited for participation in a sport at its highest level that is physical beyond description, violent and relies on men imposing their physical and mental superiority over other men.  Is Martin physically suited for the NFL?  It would appear so.  Is he emotionally and pyschologically suited?  I'm not certain.

    Does any of this mean that Incognito gets a pass?  Abso-flippin-lutely not and the rectum vent should be expelled from the game.

    My 2 cents.




    Maybe not, but if the only reason he isn't "emotionally and physchologically suited" for the NFL is because he can't tolerate illegal harrassment then it's the NFL that needs to change and not him. 

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    I’ll wager dimes to dollars that it turns out Martin wasn’t “bullied” any more than most rookies and that he left the team due to his long standing emotional and psychological issues.

    And until he receives treatment for his mental issues he won’t be able to function and cope in any work environment.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

     

     

    I’ll wager dimes to dollars that it turns out Martin wasn’t “bullied” any more than most rookies and that he left the team due to his long standing emotional and psychological issues.

    And until he receives treatment for his mental issues he won’t be able to function and cope in any work environment.




    Given what we know already about what was done to Martin, then that's an even bigger problem for the NFL.  If most rookies are harrassed in this way, then the NFL has created an atmosphere in which harrassment and hate speech is tolerated and maybe even encouraged.  That's unacceptable by today's standards, regardless of whatever may have been tolerated in the past. 

    All of this seems extremely juvenile to me. I'm in my fifties too, but this kind of male "bonding" behaviour and this need to prove one's "toughness" by putting up with it seems highly regressed. I thought boys grew out of this after junior high school. Apparently not. 

     

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    Again...stop applying the "why can't we all get along" mentality to the NFL. It's a sport based on violence and domination....if that's too mentally stressful take up horse shoes or checkers.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Uncle Rico. Show Uncle Rico's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    Could you beat up Richie Incognito?  I probably couldn't, he has well over 100 lbs of roid rage muscle and fat on me. 

     

    But if I was Jonathan Martins size I possibly could.  Why was he taking this bullying from Incognito?  How is it some people even survive in this world if they are not willing to take a stand.  Martin isn't a wimp, wimps don't make it to the NFL level.  So what is really going on here?  Is Martin to blame a bit here for letting this get so out of hand and not sticking up for himself?

     

    And now coming out of all this are coaches had asked Incognito to toughen Martin up.  This is going to be interesting.  There are going to be some people getting fired.  My question is, is one of those people Joe Philbin?  After all he said he is responsible for what goes on there.  I say see ya!

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    ....The question of the culture of an NFL locker room has been mentioned more than once in this thread.  As is the case with many professions it takes a special kind of human being to be a successful player in the NFL, regardless of position.  One must have the physical skills, of course.  But one also must be emotionally and psychologically suited for participation in a sport at its highest level that is physical beyond description, violent and relies on men imposing their physical and mental superiority over other men.  Is Martin physically suited for the NFL?  It would appear so.  Is he emotionally and pyschologically suited?  I'm not certain.

    Does any of this mean that Incognito gets a pass?  Abso-flippin-lutely not and the rectum vent should be expelled from the game.

    My 2 cents.




    Maybe not, but if the only reason he isn't "emotionally and physchologically suited" for the NFL is because he can't tolerate illegal harrassment then it's the NFL that needs to change and not him. 

     



    Good luck with that. There needs to be changes in Miami, I think that's fairly clear. But just because they're out of control there doesn't mean it's that way in Foxboro or Pittsburgh or anywhere else. 

    You aren't going to change the locker room mentality, short of closing the sport down. You might as well eliminate first downs. Macho, tough guy, prank stuff is going to happen, no matter how much sensitivity training you have. But obviously, like in anything else in life, there's a line and Incognito crossed it, he (and maybe others there) took it way too far.

    I don't think it's much more complex than that, but of course the media will try and expand it to be a commentary on a male dominated culture or some such nonsense and who knows where it will lead.

    To me, the worst part is extorting money. The race stuff, my guess is that's the way he talks and it's accepted in that locker room. I don't approve of it in any way, I don't think ANYBODY should use that language, but I've been told I'm out of touch in that regard.  

     

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    There are few things in life that are as straightforward as they appear.  This may be one of them.

    With respect to Incognito - I won't label him except to say that from his actions he appears to be a malignant presence in the locker room.  I wouldn't want him to be a part of any organization with which I am associated.

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.

    The question of the culture of an NFL locker room has been mentioned more than once in this thread.  As is the case with many professions it takes a special kind of human being to be a successful player in the NFL, regardless of position.  One must have the physical skills, of course.  But one also must be emotionally and psychologically suited for participation in a sport at its highest level that is physical beyond description, violent and relies on men imposing their physical and mental superiority over other men.  Is Martin physically suited for the NFL?  It would appear so.  Is he emotionally and pyschologically suited?  I'm not certain.

    Does any of this mean that Incognito gets a pass?  Abso-flippin-lutely not and the rectum vent should be expelled from the game.

    My 2 cents.



    Maybe not, but if the only reason he isn't "emotionally and physchologically suited" for the NFL is because he can't tolerate illegal harrassment then it's the NFL that needs to change and not him.  



    I wasn't suggesting  that his inability to tolerate the kind of b/s he was getting from Incognito was the benchmark for suitability or unsuitability.  In fact, the sentence immediately following my suitability question makes pretty clear that I don't know nor does anyone else at this point.  

    Quite frankly, prolate, and I mean this with all due respect, it is uncharaceristic of you to be so selective in responding to a particular post.  Emphasizing those six words while disregarding the rest of my post I find unfotunate, particularly when I go out of my way to point out that Incognito was off the charts out of line.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    There are few things in life that are as straightforward as they appear.  This may be one of them.

    With respect to Incognito - I won't label him except to say that from his actions he appears to be a malignant presence in the locker room.  I wouldn't want him to be a part of any organization with which I am associated.

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.

    The question of the culture of an NFL locker room has been mentioned more than once in this thread.  As is the case with many professions it takes a special kind of human being to be a successful player in the NFL, regardless of position.  One must have the physical skills, of course.  But one also must be emotionally and psychologically suited for participation in a sport at its highest level that is physical beyond description, violent and relies on men imposing their physical and mental superiority over other men.  Is Martin physically suited for the NFL?  It would appear so.  Is he emotionally and pyschologically suited?  I'm not certain.

    Does any of this mean that Incognito gets a pass?  Abso-flippin-lutely not and the rectum vent should be expelled from the game.

    My 2 cents.



    Maybe not, but if the only reason he isn't "emotionally and physchologically suited" for the NFL is because he can't tolerate illegal harrassment then it's the NFL that needs to change and not him.  



    I wasn't suggesting  that his inability to tolerate the kind of b/s he was getting from Incognito was the benchmark for suitability or unsuitability.  In fact, the sentence immediately following my suitability question makes pretty clear that I don't know nor does anyone else at this point.  

    Quite frankly, prolate, and I mean this with all due respect, it is uncharaceristic of you to be so selective in responding to a particular post.  Emphasizing those six words while disregarding the rest of my post I find unfotunate, particularly when I go out of my way to point out that Incognito was off the charts out of line.



    Part of my response ATJ is because I respect your opinion a lot and was surprised to hear you take the discussion in this direction.  I really don't like all the questioning of Martin's mental fortitude.  It seems to me much too close to blaming the victim . . . "Maybe the cheerleader shouldn't have worn such a short skirt. . . "  this is a common way of downplaying abusive behaviour:  the victim was somehow weak or complicit in the crime.  In fact, these male bonding rituals are all about forcing people to conform and questioning anyone's right to be different.  I'm sure Martin is a bit different, so he was an easy target for a Neanderthal like Incognito.  If Martin's differences make him unsuitable to play football, that should be addressed by the coaches in a performance review and he should be cut.  But that doesn't in anyway justify harassing the guy.  And I see no reason why being a bully or the type of person who will tolerate bullying is necessarily required to play in the NFL.  If the culture is such that it is, then the culture should be changed.  Just as if the culture is one that doesn't tolerate homosexuality or any other "difference" that really has little effect on anything other than ability to conform.  You may not have intended to impugn Martin, but the question does do that, whether you intended to or not.  It raises the possibility that Martin deserved to be fired because he didn't fit in.  But who determines what "fits in?"  And what really is essential to the job or just something that people think is essential because it's long been part of the culture?  In the past, women couldn't hold many jobs, because they weren't considered "suited."  Sometimes we have to challenge those assumptions.  

    And maybe it's Incognito who really isn't suited for the modern NFL.  He certainly has done more things detrimental to the game and his fellow players than Martin has. Why aren't we questioning his mental suitability?  

     

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    I'd prefer not to quote and requote - a real waste of space and I find it annoying when it extends to a lengthy exchange.

    Prolate, I respect your opinion as well and, quite candidly, I fail to understand why you're suggesting that I'm being critical of Martin in any way.  I point to this paragraph which preceded the one containing the question you find objectionable:

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.


    I stand by that statement and I stand by the rest of my post.  I alluded to the culture of an NFL locker room because it was a matter raised by several other posters. Do you know, prolate, if Martin is psychologically and emotionally suited to play in the NFL?  I don't and it has nothing to do with Incognito but the culture of an NFL locker room.  Does that culture need attention and probably change?  It would appear so.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?


    You guys forget that most lineman were the fat kids in school and probably were picked on then too. I dont get trying to excuse ICs behavior because some kid couldnt stick up for himself. There are lots of different people out there and he feared for retaliation. Sure he could have gave him a 2 piece and a biscuit but who is to say IC doesnt take it further and shoot him?  I dont know enough to condemn the kid, but I do enough to say F  U to OC. He has been on the radar as a dirty player for years so amazing nothing was done to him sooner.

     

    When I came up, kids were bullies but they hardly ever went home and killed themselves. I was a bully at times growing up, and I never thought about those kind of things and looking back I feel bad but I was on the other side too. Always someone bigger. Social media a big problem in this. Back in my day, after school you went home or hung with your friends. These days, kids go on their f/b page and let the bullying continue on a larger ,viral scale causing kids to want to harm themselves. Scary stuff. Bottom line is, sure maybe the martin kid should have done something but he is a 2nd year player. Thats like you kid at home but a few years removed. Dont blame him because Miami allowed this p.o.s to extort people.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    I'd prefer not to quote and requote - a real waste of space and I find it annoying when it extends to a lengthy exchange.

    Prolate, I respect your opinion as well and, quite candidly, I fail to understand why you're suggesting that I'm being critical of Martin in any way.  I point to this paragraph which preceded the one containing the question you find objectionable:

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.


    I stand by that statement and I stand by the rest of my post.  I alluded to the culture of an NFL locker room because it was a matter raised by several other posters. Do you know, prolate, if Martin is psychologically and emotionally suited to play in the NFL?  I don't and it has nothing to do with Incognito but the culture of an NFL locker room.  Does that culture need attention and probably change?  It would appear so.

     



    Okay . . . maybe I misread you (sometimes I skim these posts pretty quickly), and I apologize for that. 

    Martin won a starting position as a rookie, so I think he does have what it takes to play, at least when judged against what's most important.  Can he get along with others--which is a prerequisite to performing well in a team job?  That I have no idea about, but I don't think his ability to get along with others can be fairly judged in a situation where he's being called racial ephithets, receiving death threats and threats against his mother, and being forced to pay exhorbitant sums of money to others.  The situation isn't a fair one in which you can judge his ability to get along with teammates.  So we can't really know whether he's suited or not until the situation in which he's found himself is adjusted to be a fair and healthy one.  So until the bigger problem is addressed (the harassment), I don't know how we can speculate about Martin, and I don't know why so many people are doing that, unless they think harassment is somehow an okay thing in an NFL locker room.  In fact, some people (not you) seem to be saying exactly that.  Boys will be boys, you know . . . 

     

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    I'd prefer not to quote and requote - a real waste of space and I find it annoying when it extends to a lengthy exchange.

    Prolate, I respect your opinion as well and, quite candidly, I fail to understand why you're suggesting that I'm being critical of Martin in any way.  I point to this paragraph which preceded the one containing the question you find objectionable:

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.


    I stand by that statement and I stand by the rest of my post.  I alluded to the culture of an NFL locker room because it was a matter raised by several other posters. Do you know, prolate, if Martin is psychologically and emotionally suited to play in the NFL?  I don't and it has nothing to do with Incognito but the culture of an NFL locker room.  Does that culture need attention and probably change?  It would appear so.

     

     



    Okay . . . maybe I misread you (sometimes I skim these posts pretty quickly), and I apologize for that. 

     

    Martin won a starting position as a rookie, so I think he does have what it takes to play, at least when judged against what's most important.  Can he get along with others--which is a prerequisite to performing well in a team job?  That I have no idea about, but I don't think his ability to get along with others can be fairly judged in a situation where he's being called racial ephithets, receiving death threats and threats against his mother, and being forced to pay exhorbitant sums of money to others.  The situation isn't a fair one in which you can judge his ability to get along with teammates.  So we can't really know whether he's suited or not until the situation in which he's found himself is adjusted to be a fair and healthy one.  So until the bigger problem is addressed (the harassment), I don't know how we can speculate about Martin, and I don't know why so many people are doing that, unless they think harassment is somehow an okay thing in an NFL locker room.  In fact, some people (not you) seem to be saying exactly that.  Boys will be boys, you know . . .  



    It would appear that we are in agreement in this regard.  Cheers.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    I'd prefer not to quote and requote - a real waste of space and I find it annoying when it extends to a lengthy exchange.

    Prolate, I respect your opinion as well and, quite candidly, I fail to understand why you're suggesting that I'm being critical of Martin in any way.  I point to this paragraph which preceded the one containing the question you find objectionable:

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.


    I stand by that statement and I stand by the rest of my post.  I alluded to the culture of an NFL locker room because it was a matter raised by several other posters. Do you know, prolate, if Martin is psychologically and emotionally suited to play in the NFL?  I don't and it has nothing to do with Incognito but the culture of an NFL locker room.  Does that culture need attention and probably change?  It would appear so.

     

     



    Okay . . . maybe I misread you (sometimes I skim these posts pretty quickly), and I apologize for that. 

     

    Martin won a starting position as a rookie, so I think he does have what it takes to play, at least when judged against what's most important.  Can he get along with others--which is a prerequisite to performing well in a team job?  That I have no idea about, but I don't think his ability to get along with others can be fairly judged in a situation where he's being called racial ephithets, receiving death threats and threats against his mother, and being forced to pay exhorbitant sums of money to others.  The situation isn't a fair one in which you can judge his ability to get along with teammates.  So we can't really know whether he's suited or not until the situation in which he's found himself is adjusted to be a fair and healthy one.  So until the bigger problem is addressed (the harassment), I don't know how we can speculate about Martin, and I don't know why so many people are doing that, unless they think harassment is somehow an okay thing in an NFL locker room.  In fact, some people (not you) seem to be saying exactly that.  Boys will be boys, you know . . .  



    It would appear that we are in agreement in this regard.  Cheers.



    Yeah, and sorry again if I misread what you were saying.  I think you're a voice of reason on this site, but I react badly to this blame the victim attitude that seems so prevalent right now in American culture.  There's something about this Martin case that reminds me of another recent Martin case. Once again, a big rush to make excuses for the aggressor and instead blame and defame the guy who got shot or was harrassed.  

      

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    I'd prefer not to quote and requote - a real waste of space and I find it annoying when it extends to a lengthy exchange.

    Prolate, I respect your opinion as well and, quite candidly, I fail to understand why you're suggesting that I'm being critical of Martin in any way.  I point to this paragraph which preceded the one containing the question you find objectionable:

    With respect to Martin - As is the case with Incognito, I won't label him.  He does not appear to be what one would label a 'typical NFL lineman'.  Does he have issues of his own?  Perhaps but I won't say that his actions were inappropriate.  Actually, of all the options available to him he probably acted in a very responsible way.


    I stand by that statement and I stand by the rest of my post.  I alluded to the culture of an NFL locker room because it was a matter raised by several other posters. Do you know, prolate, if Martin is psychologically and emotionally suited to play in the NFL?  I don't and it has nothing to do with Incognito but the culture of an NFL locker room.  Does that culture need attention and probably change?  It would appear so.

     

     



    Okay . . . maybe I misread you (sometimes I skim these posts pretty quickly), and I apologize for that. 

     

    Martin won a starting position as a rookie, so I think he does have what it takes to play, at least when judged against what's most important.  Can he get along with others--which is a prerequisite to performing well in a team job?  That I have no idea about, but I don't think his ability to get along with others can be fairly judged in a situation where he's being called racial ephithets, receiving death threats and threats against his mother, and being forced to pay exhorbitant sums of money to others.  The situation isn't a fair one in which you can judge his ability to get along with teammates.  So we can't really know whether he's suited or not until the situation in which he's found himself is adjusted to be a fair and healthy one.  So until the bigger problem is addressed (the harassment), I don't know how we can speculate about Martin, and I don't know why so many people are doing that, unless they think harassment is somehow an okay thing in an NFL locker room.  In fact, some people (not you) seem to be saying exactly that.  Boys will be boys, you know . . .  



    It would appear that we are in agreement in this regard.  Cheers.



    Yeah, and sorry again if I misread what you were saying.  I think you're a voice of reason on this site, but I react badly to this blame the victim attitude that seems so prevalent right now in American culture.  There's something about this Martin case that reminds me of another recent Martin case. Once again, a big rush to make excuses for the aggressor and instead blame and defame the guy who got shot or was harrassed.  

      

     



    Thats just amerikkka showing its true colors in light of no leadership from minorities and them just thinking they can get away with anything. As long as we disrespect each other, some will feel they can do. Prime example...When did non black people think it was cool to do the whole black face thing? I though we deaded that long ago. Even the famous designer thought it was ok until someon checked him. Thats all ive seen for the last 2 weeks is stories about ignorant people who feel they can do what they want with no consequence. We have to get back to being proud and take back the respect and seperate ourselves from the status qoe folks who are willing to sellout for the agenda.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Angel-of-Light. Show Angel-of-Light's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:


    Thats just amerikkka showing its true colors in light of no leadership from minorities and them just thinking they can get away with anything. As long as we disrespect each other, some will feel they can do. Prime example...When did non black people think it was cool to do the whole black face thing? I though we deaded that long ago. Even the famous designer thought it was ok until someon checked him. Thats all ive seen for the last 2 weeks is stories about ignorant people who feel they can do what they want with no consequence. We have to get back to being proud and take back the respect and seperate ourselves from the status qoe folks who are willing to sellout for the agenda.



    Wow, I couldn't say better myself. Bullying does not have a place in the modern society, just like slavery. No matter how strong an individual is, there are ways to intimidate any person. Treat others the way you want to be treated, how difficult this may be? Veteran players should treat rookies with dinner, not the other way around.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to Angel-of-Light's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:


    Thats just amerikkka showing its true colors in light of no leadership from minorities and them just thinking they can get away with anything. As long as we disrespect each other, some will feel they can do. Prime example...When did non black people think it was cool to do the whole black face thing? I though we deaded that long ago. Even the famous designer thought it was ok until someon checked him. Thats all ive seen for the last 2 weeks is stories about ignorant people who feel they can do what they want with no consequence. We have to get back to being proud and take back the respect and seperate ourselves from the status qoe folks who are willing to sellout for the agenda.

     

     



    Wow, I couldn't say better myself. Bullying does not have a place in the modern society, just like slavery. No matter how strong an individual is, there are ways to intimidate any person. Treat others the way you want to be treated, how difficult this may be? Veteran players should treat rookies with dinner, not the other way around.

     




    Slavery/Bullying.....over reach much. The 13th ammendment in 1865 ended slavery

     
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