is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to coolade2's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    One point that probably should be made on this thread is that as of now, Martin has not threatened any lawsuit or made any attempt to file one (at least as far as I've heard).  So the idea that he wanted to quit football and get money going out the door is pure speculation.  There is an alternative possibility, and that's simply that Martin couldn't endure continued "harassment" from his teammates and didn't want to remain in a work environment where such behaviour was tolerated.  I put "harassment" in quotes, here, because I'm using it as a general term, not as a legal term.  The type of harassment to which Martin was subject may not have been technically illegal, but it still may have made the work environment intolerable for Martin.  The question, then, is not a legal one, but simply a policy question.  Does the NFL want to allow work environments where behaviour like Incognito's is tolerated and maybe even encouraged?  I suspect not. Incognito's actions are, in my opinion, disgusting and deplorable, and I doubt the NFL wants to be seen by the public as an organization that promotes that kind of behaviour among its employees.  I'm also not sure the NFL wants to create a work environment where talented young football players feel abused and (in extreme cases like Martin's) want to leave.  

    One thing I find interesting about this case, is what happens to Martin now.  Normally, an employee who finds his work environment unsatisfactory can simply quit and go find a job in his field elsewhere.  But the rules in football bind the employee to a single team.  So what is Martin's recourse if he's harassed by his teammates on the Dolphins?  Put up with it or end his NFL career?  That's not, in my opinion, a satisfactory solution if there's clear evidence that Martin's dissatisfaction with the Dolphins was due solely to his teammates being abusive.  In such a situation, it seems to me that the player should be allowed to seek employment with another team.  It will be interesting to see how the union and league work this one out.  Martin's contract binds him to the Dolphins.  But if the Dolphins create an abusive work environment where Martin can't work, should that void the contract?  I'd think yes, but we'll see how it plays out. 

     




    Interesting angle...   But I would speculate that the contract is what the difference is.  Most employee siuations are just that ,  no contract.  The contract will be broken down to its exact wording and then most likely a settlement , Maybe by a court if it is pushed that far.



    Funny, I just added a paragraph in my original post to point that out.  I think that's what's interesting here.  He is bound by contract to a team that he feels has created an intolerably abusive work environment.  Unlike most employees, he can't just move to another team.  That creates some interesting legal dilemmas.  I'm sure it's a headache for the NFL and the NFLPA both--and it's one reason they'll want to take action to limit "hazing" in the future.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?


    Couple things that are making this the most interesting to me....

    We haven't heard from Martin. When we do, things might start making more sense. Until then, I feel like the whole story has not yet come out.

    The most interesting twist is the players saying that they were very close friends, and the nasty voicemail was played (by Martin) in the lockeroom back in April, and was laughed about. This is where this story is the most confusing right now.

    With Incognito's past history, I stand by my original opinion, and still think he's a classless punk. But if they were in fact close friends, and that VM did in fact get played & laughed about, then Martin is starting to not look so good in all of this.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to tanbass's comment:


    Couple things that are making this the most interesting to me....

    We haven't heard from Martin. When we do, things might start making more sense. Until then, I feel like the whole story has not yet come out.

    The most interesting twist is the players saying that they were very close friends, and the nasty voicemail was played (by Martin) in the lockeroom back in April, and was laughed about. This is where this story is the most confusing right now.

    With Incognito's past history, I stand by my original opinion, and still think he's a classless punk. But if they were in fact close friends, and that VM did in fact get played & laughed about, then Martin is starting to not look so good in all of this.

     




    Agree with all of your points.

    This story is starting to takie a MantI Teo twist. It will be interesting to see what shakes out in the end.

    The interesting thing is to a man the Dolphin players are all in Icognito's camp.

    This is starting to get bizarre.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to tanbass' comment:


    Couple things that are making this the most interesting to me....

    We haven't heard from Martin. When we do, things might start making more sense. Until then, I feel like the whole story has not yet come out.

    The most interesting twist is the players saying that they were very close friends, and the nasty voicemail was played (by Martin) in the lockeroom back in April, and was laughed about. This is where this story is the most confusing right now.

    With Incognito's past history, I stand by my original opinion, and still think he's a classless punk. But if they were in fact close friends, and that VM did in fact get played & laughed about, then Martin is starting to not look so good in all of this.

     



    Martin may have been trying to fit in too and turn something he was uncomfortable with into a joke.  Eventually, he may have broken down because the discomfort never went away.  Abused people (assuming Martin was abused) sometimes defend their abusers.  It's like Stockholm syndrome or a battered spouse--the psychological response to abuse is sometimes counterintuitive.  That reaction by the abused doesn't, however, make the abuse acceptable.   

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

     

    In response to tanbass's comment:

     


    Couple things that are making this the most interesting to me....

    We haven't heard from Martin. When we do, things might start making more sense. Until then, I feel like the whole story has not yet come out.

    The most interesting twist is the players saying that they were very close friends, and the nasty voicemail was played (by Martin) in the lockeroom back in April, and was laughed about. This is where this story is the most confusing right now.

    With Incognito's past history, I stand by my original opinion, and still think he's a classless punk. But if they were in fact close friends, and that VM did in fact get played & laughed about, then Martin is starting to not look so good in all of this.

     

     




     

    Agree with all of your points.

    This story is starting to takie a MantI Teo twist. It will be interesting to see what shakes out in the end.

    The interesting thing is to a man the Dolphin players are all in Icognito's camp.

    This is starting to get bizarre.

     



    It may be that Martin increasingly realized that his teammates supported Incognito's behaviour.  Martin may have cracked because, despite trying to fit in with this group, he realized he couldn't honestly fit in and also realized that he was pretty much alone in his dislike of the atmosphere. 

     

    To me, the Dolphins locker room seems to have been a bit out of control, given the big payments rookies were forced to make and the language in Incognito's voice mail message.  Maybe the whole team likes that kind of behaviour. But I'm not sure that makes it right.  I expect the NFL to get strict about limiting hazing because of this event.  It may be that Martin is very atypical for a football player, but the NFL is too careful about its public image to allow a perception to exist that it allows harassment to take place. 

    I'll just add that I think there's an interesting study that could be done on abusive behaviour as a way to create loyalty.  I was never the type who liked or understood hazing (and never was involved in it as either a hazer or the hazed), but it clearly is a common way for men to bond with each other, and many men seem to get particularly attached to the abusive "alpha male" that maybe Incognito is in that locker room.   I don't get it, but it's pretty common in male-dominated groups--the military, sports, all-male college dormitories, etc.  Martin could just be the rare football player who doesn't fit in well with this bonding culture.  

     

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

    In response to tanbass's comment:


    Couple things that are making this the most interesting to me....

    We haven't heard from Martin. When we do, things might start making more sense. Until then, I feel like the whole story has not yet come out.

    The most interesting twist is the players saying that they were very close friends, and the nasty voicemail was played (by Martin) in the lockeroom back in April, and was laughed about. This is where this story is the most confusing right now.

    With Incognito's past history, I stand by my original opinion, and still think he's a classless punk. But if they were in fact close friends, and that VM did in fact get played & laughed about, then Martin is starting to not look so good in all of this.

     




    Agree with all of your points.

    This story is starting to takie a MantI Teo twist. It will be interesting to see what shakes out in the end.

    The interesting thing is to a man the Dolphin players are all in Icognito's camp.

    This is starting to get bizarre.



    It may be that Martin increasingly realized that his teammates supported Incognito's behaviour.  Martin may have cracked because, despite trying to fit in with this group, he realized he couldn't honestly fit in and also realized that he was pretty much alone in his dislike of the atmosphere. 

    To me, the Dolphins locker room seems to have been a bit out of control, given the big payments rookies were forced to make and the language in Incognito's voice mail message.  Maybe the whole team likes that kind of behaviour.  But I'm not sure that makes it right.  I expect the NFL to get strict about limiting hazing because of this event.  It may be that Martin is very atypical for a football player, but the NFL is too careful about its public image to allow a perception to exist that it allows harassment to take place. 

     

     

     




    Pro no doubt there is a systemic bullying/hazing issue in the NFL that most likely is going to be addressed and i don't doubt Martin was a victim on some level. It just seems that there is some contadictory information coming out and we may all just want to withhold judgement until the facts are presented in their entirety.

    This is the type of stuff coming out now.

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/2013/11/07/bullying-saga-has-dolphins-playing-defense/Yqtv3OCn6FykFgbnpPgcxL/story.html

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/06/incognito-martin-case-may-not-simple-appears/ifzcI7AjapFF4rPbi3aF2J/story.html

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from darwk. Show darwk's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to tanbass' comment:


    Couple things that are making this the most interesting to me....

    We haven't heard from Martin. When we do, things might start making more sense. Until then, I feel like the whole story has not yet come out.

    The most interesting twist is the players saying that they were very close friends, and the nasty voicemail was played (by Martin) in the lockeroom back in April, and was laughed about. This is where this story is the most confusing right now.

    With Incognito's past history, I stand by my original opinion, and still think he's a classless punk. But if they were in fact close friends, and that VM did in fact get played & laughed about, then Martin is starting to not look so good in all of this.

     




    So many thoughtful and informative opinions on this thread. I like your point that Martin has remained silent. Not making the media rounds. My guess is he has pleny of damning evidence on the harrassment and worse practices of Incognito and more.

    There is a lot of specualtion on the culture aspect of this situation. However if you read the transcript of the vm from Incognito there's no grey area. I haven't heard the "tone" of his voice- but the words used and threats are outrageous.

    How does one deal with that kind of dysfunctional and entrenched culture? Sounds like Incoginito was encouraged even driected to inflict his kind of "toughen up" abuse on Martin. What is he suppopse to do in a locker room where he is trying to fit in and contribte to the team?  I don't think it looks bad that he laughed- if true. Is he suppose to cry? or punch Incognito in the mouth? Or call him out in front of team mates clearly egging him on?

    Add my voice as one who think Martin has handled this situation the best he can. I look forward to more facts seeing the light of day. And the NFL weighing in loud and clear on this dysfucntional and abusive "toughen up" culture.

    All I seeand hear now is the "circle the wagon" message from some of the Miami Dolphins players.  Many things clearly smell in the Doplphins locer room- this goes far beyond hazing.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?


    The one thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me is so many Dolphin players saying that they were close friends. They hung out together. Where is the motivation for Martin to all of a sudden change his tune and claim abuse?

    If Martin really just wanted out of the NFL, and he was friends with Incognito as so many claim....why drag him down just to quit?

    Pieces are still missing here.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Pro no doubt there is a systemic bullying/hazing issue in the NFL that most likely is going to be addressed and i don't doubt Martin was a victim on some level. It just seems that there is some contadictory information coming out and we may all just want to withhold judgement until the facts are presented in their entirety.

    This is the type of stuff coming out now.

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/2013/11/07/bullying-saga-has-dolphins-playing-defense/Yqtv3OCn6FykFgbnpPgcxL/story.html

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/06/incognito-martin-case-may-not-simple-appears/ifzcI7AjapFF4rPbi3aF2J/story.html

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree.  It's easy to jump to conclusions that may be unfair.  In that spirit, I don't quite understand why (as the title of this thread suggests) some people are "leaning against Martin."  From the evidence we do have, I find it hard to see anything wrong with what he's done and certainly do see some problems with what Incognito did.  Additional facts may come to light that will change that perception, but as of now, I see no reason to "lean against" Martin. 

     

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    The NFL is a private club, hence, if you don't like it you are free to go somewhere else. It's a hard locker room mentality, and has been from the beginning, with a group of players that can be rough around the edges. They all do it and many teams will even tell you TB himself is one of the biggest trash talkers during live action. Sure it's a rough way to make a living but if you’re a drama queen you picked the wrong way to make a living.

    Martin could have simply said "this ain't for me" and moved on and left it behind. He's out to make a personal and political statement and intends to force the PC world into the private clubs that is the NFL.

    If this is not his agenda then why is it he has kept all of the "evidence" regarding this "bullying" situation from day one as if he planned on building a case all along. He could have been learning the playbook, and how to be a better lineman, but he chose to build a "case" rather than accept the rookie treatment, become accepted, and move on.

    This OMG PC mentality is why kids can't play dodge ball anymore and some little leagues don't keep score because losing hurts kids feelings.

    The PC crowd is running amuck in this country and if it permeates the NFL then the game will be permanently harmed... and for what?

    I know I have said I will leave my political views at the door here but I am making an exception here. Not trying to bruise feelings here but I’ve grown tired of some who say their views and beliefs trump what others believe to the point where they begin to control my life. I have no use for the thought police.

    I suppose I have said enough.

     

     

     



    1. The NFL is a BIG business. It is not a private club. 

    2. Neither private clubs nor business are beyond the rule of law. We livve in a country that was FOUNDED on the Rule Of Law. Not on the rule of the jerk to do whatever they want to whoever they want if it is their company or even home.

    3. You can feel any way you want about Martin. You can feel he is a victim of the thug mentality that to date has been let to exist. You can feel he should stand up for himself. 

    4. Whatever you feel you are not in his shoes nor do you know what he HAS done to stand up for himself. Thugs generally dont simply slink away because someone says "Hey I dont like what you are doing to me. Generally thugs have to be met with force or the threat of force - like being exled from the league and so their income or being arrested and put in jail.

    5. I do not see anything political in this except that there are some few people who think they are "libertarian" which seems to mean to them its the wild west and anyone can do anything they want and you can protect yourself from them any way you want. Like it or not that does not fly in civilization, it does not fly under the rule of law, it does not fly in any mainstream religious beliefs (for example, Jesus preached something completely contrary to this).

    6. I get why this is a "story" - why there is interest. Until the facts are out it is hard to judge who is responsible for what; conjecture does not replace solid assessment. And so while I too have responded to this story through conjecture it is best to let it play out. 

    7. Having said #6 there should be no place on a team or any league for harrassment. As with most things, hazing, taken to an extreme is no longer acceptable. We eacch have some place we draw the line and those lines may not be in exactly the same place. But essentially the principle is the same. And IF the rumors now emanating are true not only should some play(s) be either suspended for the year (or kicked out if it was that egreggious) but also on eor more coaches. If it goes beyond coaches and players then the team and owner need to take a big hit.

    Sexual assault, physical assault, shake downs, and simply the ongoing atmosphere of intimidation... none of these are acceptable and so the authority of the team, the league and ultimately the police and the courts should be brought to bear whenever and wherever these things occur. That football is a barbaric activity is beside the point because we are talking about what happens off the field of play. It is not even acceptable on the sidelines in the course of a game.

    And for you Jet fans, it is not acceptable in the stands either - whether it is threatening the fans of other teams or itimidating women and girls attending games.

     

     
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    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    In response to MattC05's comment:

    In response to Salcon's comment:

    Has anyone even thought that maybe Martin has emotional or mental issues that can be treated like depression but he doesn't realise it or he does but won't do anything about it because it could be interpreted as not very masculine/macho for a big, strong guy to admit that he has depression?

    This doesn't excuse Incog for his actions as how he has acted sounds very juvenile to me.

    This isn't high school or even college.  These guys are adults and professionals.  Granted, they are adults that play a violent game for a living but that doesn't make that kind of behavior any more acceptable.



    I really see nothing wrong with anything Martin did.  He handled it maturely.  He recognized that he was in a toxic situation, and quietly removed himself from it.  Throwing punches, as some here seem to want him to do, would be the worst thing he could do.  Boys do that kind of stuff.  Men don't.

    If the organization thought that Martin overreacted (which would be the implication from thinking he might have mental issues/depression), they would not have immediately cut ties with Incognito.



    Mature... I will add smart.

    Trying to address the issue in the way that the small-minded thugs would have wanted him to, will simply perpetuate the dysfunctional culture. By doing what he did, there is a better chance he brings about change -- a change that future rookies will benefit from.

    In doing what he did, Martin will get the last laugh.

    1) It will change in the conduct of veterans towards rookies

    2) Martin may have put Incognito out of the NFL. He may get away from charges of racism. Extortion is a criminal offense. Compund that with death threats and threats to Martin's family. Grounds for voiding his contract? 

    3) Apparently Martin checked into a hospital for emitonal distress. This guarantees civil lawsuits in the future - vs Incognito (probably financially crippling the bully), separately vs the NFL (for not ensuring a safe environment for its employees).

    Literally punching Incognito on the mouth will never accomplish all three.

     




    Great post. I may disagree with you on certain football issues but you are always making good points.



    Yes, these were great posts.

     

    And for some here who say football is a different environment, that does not at  alchnge the morality, the ethics, or the law. Ttha physical violence takes place on the field does not give players the free pass to employ physical violence elsewhere: not in the home, on the roads, in a bar, or even elsewhere in their workplace beyond practicing the play of the game. Even in practice if a player were to attack another player in anger or hate - meaning essentially outside of trying to simply PLAY FOOTBALL, that would be eligible for legal inquiry and possible legal action. There is no place where the rule of law does not hold. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    And yes, Martin may be VERY smart and not a jerk - as opposed to simply fitting into this obsession with a man either being strong and physical or being a weak coward. In this case it might end up being that Martin was simpply being a man whose actions are guided by what is the right way to handle a problem and what is a wrong way. 

    It may have been clear to Martin that the thug culture in the NFL is out of hand (and likely has been for a long time). It might have been clear to him that something should be done to end it. It might have been clear to him that the team was eith behind it or encouraged it or simply condoned it and so going to the team was only going to pit his own teamates against him and accomplish nothing. 

    If the case then taking a legal route is smart and is cool headed and in its own way a brave action. And consider that this guy played big time college ball and has played and good enough to start many games in the NFL. He is no stranger to physical violence. He engages in it every day. 

    Martin may be a very good thing for the players in this league. And for the league as a whole!

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to seawolfxs's comment:

    A couple of thoughts

    There was an incident recently that all of the players got up and left him alone at lunch. This sort of abandonment may have triggered the final straw that he felt the coaches and all the other players were against him. if the players are saying that they were good friends, and then that friend led to his total estrangement by his " family"

    I find it impossible to believe the coaches didn't know abouT this incident ( I would fire the coach)

    i wouldn't want to stay either! especially of I felt the coaches approved it.

     

    Second, unlike when we grew up and how we should deal with bullies, today is different. The difference is today there are guns. who was one of the Oline and. A friend , Pouncey, who is Pouncy friends with? a Hernandez, and what did he do? Do you think incognito might have a gun? Or know how to get one? I wouldn't be fighting him either

    I don't know what the total truth is, but as long as he is getting his contract, he has no financial losses, I just don't see a successful suit even if that is what he wishes. 

     




    On the radio this morning a player who knows both is now saying Richie was his friend and his voicemail was supposed to be comedic and the only harm was the n word but he called that to his face all the time and martin laughed so he didnt see why was he upset?? (that I dont get)

    He also sais that Martin came into the league shy and stand offish and Richie was asked by coach to toughen him iup, bring him out his shell, see what he is about. Richie obliged obviously. He sais the vegas thing was overblown and martin backed out of a trip he had previously committed too so had to pay anyway. The caf thing is a running joke with lineman on every team apparently that he should not have taken personally.

    If this guy is truthful, I have to say this mostly has been overblown besides the racist stuff which cant be discounted. I dont get how this teamate telling this story thought because Martin laughed off Richie calling him the n word, that he was cool with it. Maybe it was akward but I garauntee he wasnt laughing because he thought it was funny.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    I don't care if the Dolphins fire Incognito or do whatever but I think some people are taking this in a scary direction.  When you are talking about invoking criminal acts to control speech your way the hell off.  The only thing Incognito did that could be considered a crime was make threats and its pretty clear that neither Martin or anyone else took them seriously.  Which means its not a crime.  Incognito has zero power over Martin except in Martin's mind (and even that's not clear), its not extortion for Martin to pay when he could have said no.  You would need a lot more than a demand from a co-worker for extortion.  

    And that ignores all the information that has come out the last couple days.  I think with new information people are being too stubborn to look at what doesn't fit what they've already decided.  And there's still a lot we don't know.  The idea that was first put out that Martin was a well adjusted kid who was the hapless victim of Incognito's racist threats and taunts does not fit what we now know.  That they were friends, that they played the message and laughed about it, that Incognito defended Martin.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    In response to seawolfxs's comment:

     

    A couple of thoughts

    There was an incident recently that all of the players got up and left him alone at lunch. This sort of abandonment may have triggered the final straw that he felt the coaches and all the other players were against him. if the players are saying that they were good friends, and then that friend led to his total estrangement by his " family"

    I find it impossible to believe the coaches didn't know abouT this incident ( I would fire the coach)

    i wouldn't want to stay either! especially of I felt the coaches approved it.

     

    Second, unlike when we grew up and how we should deal with bullies, today is different. The difference is today there are guns. who was one of the Oline and. A friend , Pouncey, who is Pouncy friends with? a Hernandez, and what did he do? Do you think incognito might have a gun? Or know how to get one? I wouldn't be fighting him either

    I don't know what the total truth is, but as long as he is getting his contract, he has no financial losses, I just don't see a successful suit even if that is what he wishes. 

     

     




    On the radio this morning a player who knows both is now saying Richie was his friend and his voicemail was supposed to be comedic and the only harm was the n word but he called that to his face all the time and martin laughed so he didnt see why was he upset?? (that I dont get)

     

    He also sais that Martin came into the league shy and stand offish and Richie was asked by coach to toughen him iup, bring him out his shell, see what he is about. Richie obliged obviously. He sais the vegas thing was overblown and martin backed out of a trip he had previously committed too so had to pay anyway. The caf thing is a running joke with lineman on every team apparently that he should not have taken personally.

    If this guy is truthful, I have to say this mostly has been overblown besides the racist stuff which cant be discounted. I dont get how this teamate telling this story thought because Martin laughed off Richie calling him the n word, that he was cool with it. Maybe it was akward but I garauntee he wasnt laughing because he thought it was funny.



    Why, you think everyone has the same morality as you? Finds the same words offensive?  That the N word isn't used all the time without offense.  This is incredibly naive.  Only Martin knows how he felt about it.  But most certainly evidence that Martin didn't take offense is not proof he did take offense.  We certainly don't need the morality police to tell two adults what language they can use with one another.  If Martin found it offensive that's one thing but the evidence shows the opposite.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    Lots of stuff being discussed here...  I'll add my quick two cents:

    It is all a matter of persepctive.  Not saying whatever Incognito did was right or wrong, but, in Martin's eyes he took it a certain way regardless of the intent while other saw it as business as usual.  This particular situation is a microcosm of what society is turning into.  That being the feelings of just ONE person dictates how society, or a group, or a person should act. It appears if just one person does not like something, the rules are to change to avoid "hurting" that one person even though everyone else is not bothered by a particular event.  It appears as more news is coming out about this matter, Martin is looking more and more like someone who just did not want to "fit" into the norm of an NFL locker room.  I am certain we have worked in a place in which there was that one person who just didn't want to be part of the group, but, just wanted to be left alone to do their work.  But, on an NFL team, there is not such thing as a lone performer since you need a TEAM to win.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

     

     

     

     

    from linked article:

     

    "If you had asked Jon Martin a week before who his best friend on the team was, he would have said Richie Incognito,’’ Tannehill said, on another day when dozens of reporters descended on the team complex. ‘‘The first guy to stand up for Jonathan when anything went down on the field, any kind of tussle, Richie was the first guy there. When they wanted to hang out outside of football, who was together? Richie and Jonathan.’’

     

    Come on people ... figure it out....

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    In response to seawolfxs's comment:

     

    A couple of thoughts

    There was an incident recently that all of the players got up and left him alone at lunch. This sort of abandonment may have triggered the final straw that he felt the coaches and all the other players were against him. if the players are saying that they were good friends, and then that friend led to his total estrangement by his " family"

    I find it impossible to believe the coaches didn't know abouT this incident ( I would fire the coach)

    i wouldn't want to stay either! especially of I felt the coaches approved it.

     

    Second, unlike when we grew up and how we should deal with bullies, today is different. The difference is today there are guns. who was one of the Oline and. A friend , Pouncey, who is Pouncy friends with? a Hernandez, and what did he do? Do you think incognito might have a gun? Or know how to get one? I wouldn't be fighting him either

    I don't know what the total truth is, but as long as he is getting his contract, he has no financial losses, I just don't see a successful suit even if that is what he wishes. 

     

     




    On the radio this morning a player who knows both is now saying Richie was his friend and his voicemail was supposed to be comedic and the only harm was the n word but he called that to his face all the time and martin laughed so he didnt see why was he upset?? (that I dont get)

     

    He also sais that Martin came into the league shy and stand offish and Richie was asked by coach to toughen him iup, bring him out his shell, see what he is about. Richie obliged obviously. He sais the vegas thing was overblown and martin backed out of a trip he had previously committed too so had to pay anyway. The caf thing is a running joke with lineman on every team apparently that he should not have taken personally.

    If this guy is truthful, I have to say this mostly has been overblown besides the racist stuff which cant be discounted. I dont get how this teamate telling this story thought because Martin laughed off Richie calling him the n word, that he was cool with it. Maybe it was akward but I garauntee he wasnt laughing because he thought it was funny.



    Why, you think everyone has the same morality as you? Finds the same words offensive?  That the N word isn't used all the time without offense.  This is incredibly naive.  Only Martin knows how he felt about it.  But most certainly evidence that Martin didn't take offense is not proof he did take offense.  We certainly don't need the morality police to tell two adults what language they can use with one another.  If Martin found it offensive that's one thing but the evidence shows the opposite.



    I def. dont think that. As a brown man though I can only speak for myself and if martin thought it was so funny that someone was calling him the N word in reality then why are we here talking about the story?  I dont claim to know a mans thoughts but I know what how he SHOULD have felt. I have not once in my life heard a white person call a brown person the N word in an amusing way and have that person also be amused but we do live in a different world today where people dont know their history. If some brown people want to use the word amongst themselves in a lighthearted manner thats up to those people. We are supposed to believe these guys were friends after knowing each other less than a year??  Look, I stated that the whole thing is likely overblown. the coach gave orders,etc but dont get me to agree with a 3rd PARTY about how a black man received a racial slur.  So I could pose the same question to you. I think My thoery is more likey. To each his own

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    According to ESPN, the GM was informed about the situation and the GM specifically mentioned that Martin should punch Incognito. Ignorance abound. The Dolphins organization will be in a lot of hurt. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

     

    I am starting to really lean against MArtin.

    Quote from Ricky Williams:

     

    "I think I can relate and I can speak on this because I was at a point where I was done with the NFL and I needed to take a break," Williams said. "But unlike Jonathan, I didn't have to find a scapegoat or someone to blame. ... I didn't have to bring anyone else down when I found out that I just couldn't handle what I was going through at the time."

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    He was left alone at lunch...I had no idea to the extent of such horror...oh the humanity.

    And to think all this time I thought it was some minor issue...I'm not worthy....

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    Looks like the scapgoat is going to be the Dolphins terrible GM. South Florida will erupt if Jeff Ireland is eventually let go.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:

     

    I am starting to really lean against MArtin.

    Quote from Ricky Williams:

     

    "I think I can relate and I can speak on this because I was at a point where I was done with the NFL and I needed to take a break," Williams said. "But unlike Jonathan, I didn't have to find a scapegoat or someone to blame. ... I didn't have to bring anyone else down when I found out that I just couldn't handle what I was going through at the time."



    But, Williams is just stepping back from the bong and speculating his situation is the same as Martin's. He has no idea.

    We don't know what the situation was, but if Martin is putting together a timeline of events, I am pretty sure this goes a bit deeper than just some offhanded ribbing between teammates.

     



    dont forget Ricky played for the dolphins and got the rushing title there. I dont see how EX players protecting the SHIELD is an admission of ANYTHING regarding this case. I dont act like I know intimate details but neither should He. I dont think this is about scapegoating as Richie HAS a history and whats so hard to believe about Miami being a chitty organization??  What kind of man "leans" against another mans story based on some random ex player making a point who has never been considered the voice of reason. In fact , he is a nutcase. Make your own conclusion.

     

    The NFL is just like a secret society in that regard. Did you see Jerry Rice and Emmit Smith throwing up their signs in Canton??  There is loyalty from those who ATE off the NFL. Some leave and are bitter and choose to expose things like in the 30/30 special when the after life cathes up to them(consussions). All up to the individual.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    He was left alone at lunch...I had no idea to the extent of such horror...oh the humanity.

    And to think all this time I thought it was some minor issue...I'm not worthy....




    lol...   And to think his best (boy)friend would call him names...  Unspeakable horror.  The league , the sports media, every news show should cover this every minute of the day...  I am worried for their children,  their grandchildren, their great grandchildren....  their grand parents... their uncles ,  aunts... neices..... 

    I need to stop.  (deep breath)  OK carry on.  Ill try.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Homecheese. Show Homecheese's posts

    Re: is it WRONG to be leaning against MARTIN?

    In response to MattC05's comment:

     

    Racial slurs, extortion and threats against his family goes a little beyond "rookie treatment."  These are federal crimes, since it carried across state lines.

    It's ironic that the term "man up" used by so many in this situation is actually indicative of an incredibly childish attitude and world view.

     




    +1. Its pretty well known that men who are telling others to "man up" or "this is how a man should act" are many times insecure about their own manhood

     

     
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