Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    I agree with the O.C., it's Football 101, or whatever you want to call it.  To rely on the pass without a semblance of a run game just makes everything that much harder, and requires Brady to be near perfect.  For whatever reason this offense gets away from the things that would make them harder to stop.  In limited doses, the spread is a good thing, as long as it's situational such as during the two minute drill or when they're hurry up offense since the defense gets stuck with the wrong personnel to contain it.  
     
  2. This post has been removed.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : So were you booing the first two weeks of the season, in order to be consistent?
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]

    Look here, the difference between you and me is that I like to talk football with people and hear their p-o-v while you like to jump all over people who don't agree with you, or something like that.  I'll take every victory the Pats can muster, doesn't mean I/we can't have an opinion and the recent playoff results speak for themselves so there is room for friendly disagreement.  Move on to someone who really gives a toss what you think... 
     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?


    Too many on this board as far as I can see has an opinion about how much the PAtriots should run that is STATIC. That they should always run a certain number of times etc....some say more some say less.

    I say they should run based on what the other team is doing on defense.

    The Jets 2 weeks ago actually made an effort to stop the run, this is one of the first teams to do that this year against the Pats. I thought the PAts did the correct thing and do a very high Pass / Run ratio because there was nothing to 'open up' , as it turned out despite having good cover guys the JEts were playing much softer against the pass in order to guard against the run already and there were openings in the passing lanes that the Pats exploited.

    KC defense had clearly bought into the 'play red zone defense against the pats everywhere' they chugged their 5 minute energy drinks and tried to take away everything within 20 yards. Nothing was really working at first but the Chiefs could not sustain what they were doing. The long pass the Gronk changed everything. They then hedged towards that on D, then the run opened up...then they were on their heals. (more or less)

    That was the good..now the bad,

    Many teams simply dare NE to run and try to play tight pass D and rush up the middle. In this case I think for whatever reason the Pats don't go far enough with the run and when they do are far too predictable: Run 1rst down, if more than 5 yard run 2nd down..else pass 2nd and 3rd down...as the formula goes.

    and personel for running...
    as chrisakawoody started the thread:

    "Also, have you noticed that Woodhead is a better choice at RB to start the game (and maybe Vereen will good in that role, too), with his darting and weaving, only to bring in The Law Firm to pound it downhill later in the game as the D starts to run low of gas?"

    I agree.

    Finally..the types of running plays matter...cutbacks if the D is overpursuing, traps on big pass rushes, power runs if your winning the line battle, go arounfd the outside if their clogging the middle.
     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from NYC. Show NYC's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    Given that our ability to go over the top with WR's is very limited, the run game is essential to opening things up. Next question is what are we going to do about a wide receiver deep threat?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : The problem with a lot of this is that you need to KNOW exactly what the defense is going to do after the snap.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]

    yes...an oversimplification on my part, the Chiefs were giving many different looks. The theme however was pressure D for this game (what's new) the PAts success was as much KC not being able to keep it up as it was PAts seeing enough of the different defensive sets and and matchups to adjust.
     
  9. This post has been removed.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]If you pass every time, as the Pats did virtually in all of their losses, you will not have Gronk open down the field. It's a pretty simple concept.  If you do not run, you lose.  Your receivers will never be open and your QB will eventually get hurt.  
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]


    This is just not correct.

    At this point as a team we are nearly right on the league average in rushing attempts, so I find it an empty charge that we don't run the ball enough.

    Also, of our three losses our rushing yards were very much in keeping with our median totals for two of those games. In the other we had few offensive yards of any kind because the D could not get off the field and let the Steelers bleed the clock away.

    How much do you think we should run more than the league average considering that excess amount is taking the ball away from the 2nd rated passer who is on pace for one of the most productive passing season of all-time?

    I think some folks here are just obsessed with running more and have no facts to back up their obsession.
     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from chrisakawoody. Show chrisakawoody's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : This is just not correct. At this point as a team we are nearly right on the league average in rushing attempts, so I find it an empty charge that we don't run the ball enough. Also, of our three losses our rushing yards were very much in keeping with our median totals for two of those games. In the other we had few offensive yards of any kind because the D could not get off the field and let the Steelers bleed the clock away. How much do you think we should run more than the league average considering that excess amount is taking the ball away from the 2nd rated passer who is on pace for one of the most productive passing season of all-time? I think some folks here are just obsessed with running more and have no facts to back up their obsession.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    I didn't claim that they run less.  You are putting words in my typing hands.  

    I claimed that they lost when they did not have a more reasonable balance between pass and run, and I am right.  They won every time they used the run in a balanced amount, and sometimes when they didn't.  They never lost when the run was balanced with the pass. 

    THE LOSSES
    Vs. Bills 26:45 = 37% close
    Vs. Steelers 12:35 = 26%
    Vs. Giants 24:39 = 38% close

    THE WINS
    Vs. Miami 22:48 = 31% commanding
    Vs. SD 25:40 = 38% commanding
    Vs. Oakland 30:30 = 50% commanding 
    Vs. Jets 35:33 = 52%
    Vs. Dallas 25:41 = 38% close
    Vs. Jets 28:39 = 42% blow-out
    Vs. KC 35:27 = 56% blow-out

    You, sir, are wrong, and the stats - aka "facts" - back it up.  

    Typically, the more they ran, the more they won and the bigger they won.  A couple of times, they passed heavy and still won - the exceptions, like against woeful Miami with a very green QB and bad coach.  Pass heavy against the league's best coaches and the Pats lose. 

    In addition, in the games in which they were losing, they used the run to get the final score closer, as the field opened.  Had they run sooner, instead of waiting until the 4th to start running, I am confident that they would be undefeated.  I will not bother to research and break-down the stats by QTR.  You do it if you want more proof. My work is done here.  (Love that NFL.com.  It resolves these debates.)  

    Got it?


     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsRfineIn09. Show PatsRfineIn09's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?




    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : I didn't claim that they run less.  You are putting words in my typing hands.   I claimed that they lost when they did not have a more reasonable balance between pass and run, and I am right.  They won every time they used the run in a balanced amount, and sometimes when they didn't.  They never lost when the run was balanced with the pass.  THE LOSSES Vs. Bills 26:45 = 37% close Vs. Steelers 12:35 = 26% Vs. Giants 24:39 = 38% close THE WINS Vs. Miami 22:48 = 31% commanding Vs. SD 25:40 = 38% commanding Vs. Oakland 30:30 = 50% commanding  Vs. Jets 35:33 = 52% Vs. Dallas 25:41 = 38% close Vs. Jets 28:39 = 42% blow-out Vs. KC 35:27 = 56% blow-out You, sir, are wrong, and the stats - aka "facts" - back it up.   Typically, the more they ran, the more they won and the bigger they won.  A couple of times, they passed heavy and still won - the exceptions, like against woeful Miami with a very green QB and bad coach.  Pass heavy against the league's best coaches and the Pats lose.  In addition, in the games in which they were losing, they used the run to get the final score closer, as the field opened.  Had they run sooner, instead of waiting until the 4th to start running, I am confident that they would be undefeated.  I will not bother to research and break-down the stats by QTR.  You do it if you want more proof. My work is done here.  (Love that NFL.com.  It resolves these debates.)   Got it?
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]

    Irrationals don't see facts but great post anyway. What the Patriots need to do is COMMIT to the run early in games, a really simple thing to understand, look at how much more dangerous our offense is with Brady utilizing the play action pass, we don't need an elite running attack early we need the threat of said running attack early.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from chrisakawoody. Show chrisakawoody's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : Irrationals don't see facts but great post anyway. What the Patriots need to do is COMMIT to the run early in games, a really simple thing to understand, look at how much more dangerous our offense is with Brady utilizing the play action pass, we don't need an elite running attack early we need the threat of said running attack early.
    Posted by PatsRfineIn09[/QUOTE]
     
  16. This post has been removed.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    Lots of good comments now after going 10 Games.
     
    Overall I agree - in good measure - with RWTK in that using the shotgun too much does more harm than good, for the most part. That's if I'm reading RWTK

    correctly? Using the run from the shotgun is more like a draw, not a quick hit to the line if played from under center and it's more difficult to do an effective PlayAction from the shotgun as it signals the D, once the ball is snapped with the players committed to motion a bit too early, where if played from under center the players don't show themselves to the 'D' as quick as in from a stop and go!

    WE have already seen various defences with disguises. These are all different Battles with different Teams and schemes. Usually after a series or two the opposing D has to show their game planning and The Pats need to run and PA accordingly. Using the speed of Woodhead and Vereen to the edge more, Quick screens, fake screen then Ridley up the middle, etc. So many things to mention like the numbers shown above although true are IMHO more useful to me whether the runs/PA were from the shotgun or UC. UC I think more positive.

    Besides being physical the game has become more mental.

    Using the spread offense 'Under Center' is more effective and much less obvious to a 'D'. Establishing and using the run from the get-go is important and even if not effective at first. The results of using the shotgun exclusively  means that Brady just has to put up a quick lead and the results have led to mistakes this year, especially. RWTK is right because when they change up to UC things start to turn around.

    Judging by the clips I've seen Brady does'nt have an advantage in the shotgun as far as time because if the O'line does'nt show up he's more vulnerable than UC. The Hurry-up in the shotgun is still a very effective tool. BB excels in situational FB.

    Have a good night! 

    "I'll moider da bum."
    Heavyweight boxer Tony Galento, when asked what he thought of William Shakespeare

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : I didn't claim that they run less.  You are putting words in my typing hands.   I claimed that they lost when they did not have a more reasonable balance between pass and run, and I am right.  They won every time they used the run in a balanced amount, and sometimes when they didn't.  They never lost when the run was balanced with the pass.  THE LOSSES Vs. Bills 26:45 = 37% close Vs. Steelers 12:35 = 26% Vs. Giants 24:39 = 38% close THE WINS Vs. Miami 22:48 = 31% commanding Vs. SD 25:40 = 38% commanding Vs. Oakland 30:30 = 50% commanding  Vs. Jets 35:33 = 52% Vs. Dallas 25:41 = 38% close Vs. Jets 28:39 = 42% blow-out Vs. KC 35:27 = 56% blow-out You, sir, are wrong, and the stats - aka "facts" - back it up.   Typically, the more they ran, the more they won and the bigger they won.  A couple of times, they passed heavy and still won - the exceptions, like against woeful Miami with a very green QB and bad coach.  Pass heavy against the league's best coaches and the Pats lose.  In addition, in the games in which they were losing, they used the run to get the final score closer, as the field opened.  Had they run sooner, instead of waiting until the 4th to start running, I am confident that they would be undefeated.  I will not bother to research and break-down the stats by QTR.  You do it if you want more proof. My work is done here.  (Love that NFL.com.  It resolves these debates.)   Got it?
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]

    Don't got it.

    You certainly did claim they weren't running enough. And I showed they were running a very typical amount compared to the rest of the league. And that shows that it is you who are out of wack with your conclusion that they are not running enough.

    "If you pass every time, as the Pats did virtually in all of their losses, you will not have Gronk open down the field. It's a pretty simple concept.  If you do not run, you lose.  Your receivers will never be open and your QB will eventually get hurt". 



    And your reply simply confirms what I said.

    THE LOSSES

    Vs. Bills 26:45 = 37% close

    Vs. Steelers 12:35 = 26%

    Vs. Giants 24:39 = 38% close



    The NFL average current balance over 10 games is; passes - 343.4 and rushes 269.3. That's running 43% of the time. Two of our losses were about at that frequency. The Steeler game was heavily affected by the D not being able to get off the field and us playing from behind the whole game. We were down by 13 in the 4th quarter. 

    Our current balance is; passes - 387 and rushes 262. That's running 40% of the time and pretty much an NFL "norm" this year. So, you're going to question the best coach in the game over 3 plays out of 100?

    When you consider our passer is the second rated in the league and our most used runner is 39th per carry (at least 50 att) the argument could rather be made we run too much!

    As far as the blowouts, of course you run the ball more in garbage time to burn some clock. That proves nothing about the running game causing bigger wins.

    Your contention that we lack normal balance in the run/pass game is utterly without substance and is simply a whimsical notion on your part.

    You are right about one thing though. Your work is done here. It was done before it started.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]I think they need to not listen to us and go with what works and helps move the ball and score points.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]


    I'm with you on this. I'll leave the run/pass balance (which is not out of wack at all btw) to the best coach in the league. Now if we could just get a GM as good as our coach.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?


    Offenses are more effective when they're more diverse. So, yeah, when the Pats utilize the run effectively along with their short passing game, they tend to be more effective than when they rely solely on one thing.  But you can't conclude that utilizing the running game more will always help the offense, because a lot of what works or doesn't work depends on the defense and what it's doing.  You can't always be 100% certain that a game plan that was effective against one team would be effective against another.  You also have to take into consideration what our own defense is doing and how successful it has been in shutting down the opposing offense.  You're not going to switch to a heavy run-first offense if the other team is racking up 28 or 30 points.  If that's the case, you need to be sure you score enough to keep up, and that's going to force you to pass more.  While I generally like to see more running in a game, I also think we need to avoid oversimplifying what's going on.  There are times when relying heavily on spread formations, passing, and draw plays will work very well.  There are other times when without a better mix of formations and run and pass plays the offense will sputter.  Sometimes, at the beginning of games, we may be testing what will work best. In fact, it's quite possible that as part of their game plan, BB and O'Brien were showing the Chiefs certain looks early to get their defense reacting one way with a plan all along to switch things up later and exploit whatever the Chiefs were doing.  We're just not privy to all the thinking behind what the coaches decide to do.  So while it's fun to speculate on what may or may not work better, I guess in the end I have confidence that BB and even Bill O'Brien know a lot more than me and certain other folks posting in these threads.  Expressing opinions is always a good thing, but some of the posters who act like they're 100% right seem sort of silly to me.  If they're that smart about football, why don't they apply for BB's or O'Brien's job?  I'm sure it pays better than posting all day on BDC!










     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davedsone. Show Davedsone's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    I think it's the adjustments in the protection.  Period.  They were amped, throwing every kind of stunt and blitz and selling out to get to Brady.  It worked, in that seeing all the pressure made him inaccurate, and our runs were going right into the teeth of the defense.  When we got going, it was more about picking up the blitzer, firing short, running off tackle, and making them pay for the big risks they were taking.  I don't see it as simple as "run more".  Yes, we need to run.  But we need most of all to counter this kind of pressure faster in the future.  When we meet the Pack in the Superbowl, they are going to try "the blueprint" for sure, and we can't afford to go that long without scoring.  I liked the adjustment, I like that we scored big after we made it.  But we do need to plan for it maybe a bit better, and adjust faster.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from boomerst3. Show boomerst3's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    Pats have a great avearge per carry running. They just get away from it too much. Balance is good to keep the opposing team honest. But it is a passing league and thebPats are built that way. On another point, it is Interesting that Green Bay has the 2nd worst defense statistically behind the Pats, but their high flying offense, and no losses, masks it from the media. We hear how bad the Pats D is, but never do we hear it about GB.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dessalines. Show Dessalines's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    Turned into the usual FUN thread.  Do you guys really root for the same team?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from isurfvb24. Show isurfvb24's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : Or how about when Ridley was stoned twice on runs and then Ocho was open on playaction deep? Brady underthrew him again, but that's another story. lol Some people don't get that 2-3 yard runs are fine when your QB is Tom Brady and he has this weaponry.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    ridley didnt have a single rushing attempt.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    [QUOTE]From Bill O'Brien in his post-game:   "It (the run) definitely goes hand in hand in our opinion. In order to have a decent play action game, you’ve got to be able to run the ball and do the best you can to make those two things to look alike. I think our guys really work on it a lot and our guys really believe in it. … It all works together and I believe that’s something we did a pretty good job of last night. … At the end of the day, you’ve got to be able to run the ball to make that as effective as you want it to be." Can anybody sanely argue that the adjustment to more running last night fixed the stalled offense?  Sure, few yards to start, but that changed as the game progressed.  And soon the scores came flowing. KC couldn't double cover Gronk, Welker and Branch on every play if they had to worry about a running play.  Totally changed the game thereafter. Also, have you noticed that Woodhead is a better choice at RB to start the game (and maybe Vereen will good in that role, too), with his darting and weaving, only to bring in The Law Firm to pound it downhill later in the game as the D starts to run low of gas?
    Posted by chrisakawoody[/QUOTE]

         "Running more" ensures absolutely nothing!!!! What good would it be if the Pats run the ball 30 times, but average 2-3 yards per carry? 

         Nor is success for this team predicated on the defense suddenly playing like the "85 Bears. That's not going to happen.

         The key to success for the 2011 Pats is predicated on the play of the OL. If they block well, Tom Brady gets the time he needs to pick any defense apart. If they block well, the Pats then will be able to successfully run the ball. 
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share