Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    If the team's offensive coordinator is quoted as saying they need to be more balanced, then it's common sense that they need to be more balanced since he's the most plugged into what they're doing over there. 

    We can all agree to disagree about playcalling, the success of the offensive line at pass blocking, or whatever else you think stalls the offense at times.  This isn't an argument that the Pats' offense isn't good enough to beat 80% of the teams in this league while being one dimensional at times. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from taljr. Show taljr's posts

    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    Again, excellent discussion.

    There are so many positive things that come from a successful running team, many which can't be statistically proved. Good running teams are usually very physical teams and this can be very  demoralizing to the other team. Did you guys see Mankins pulling on the screens and runs the other night, just devastaing blocks. I would love to see more of this kind of thing. Keep getting Solder in there as the blocking tight end. Gotta love a team that runs the ball successfully in the obvious run situation. especially when they can't be stopped. Again, demoralizing. Running keeps drives alive, controls the clock, and protects the football late in the game, all important facets for a winning team. Running succesfully might keep the Pat's D off the field LOL.
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    If the team's offensive coordinator is quoted as saying they need to be more balanced, then it's common sense that they need to be more balanced since he's the most plugged into what they're doing over there.  We can all agree to disagree about playcalling, the success of the offensive line at pass blocking, or whatever else you think stalls the offense at times.  This isn't an argument that the Pats' offense isn't good enough to beat 80% of the teams in this league while being one dimensional at times. 
    Posted by CablesWyndBairn


    If you listen to some of the commentators on this site, though, it's as if the OC doesn't understand that -- or at least didn't understand that until his press conference this week.

    The reality, I'm sure, is that BB and BO'B  both have long understood the value of a balanced offense but also have a good understanding of the limits of our current running game, the strengths and weaknesses of our spread offense, and the strengths and weaknesses of our defense.  Plus they have a much better understanding than any of us do about their opponents' strenghts, weaknesses, and tendencies.  All of this goes into the pot when they're designing a game plan. If they know, for instance, the team they are going up against is poor in pass coverage, decent against the run, and can score a lot of points on offense, they probably are going to rely more on our passing game and de-emphasize the run.  If they're up against the Jets--a team that has great pass defenders and an offense that doesn't stack up points--they will use the run a lot more.  At the same time, against a team like the Jets, they aren't going to ignore the pass, because the Jets can stop the run too . . . and the fact is, our passing offense is pretty good when defenses don't completely key on it.  There's a tendency, I think, for all of us (me included) to oversimplify.  The reality, though, is this is a complex game and BB and BO'B have a lot more info and knowledge than we do.  I'm not sure BO'B is a great coordinator, but I do believe BB is a brilliant coach and would not let BO'B make stupid decisions game after game without stepping in.  So I think BB has "blessed" our offensive approach . . . and if BB thinks it's good, who am I to question him?
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    I'm all for a balanced offense where the run and pass play off each other, no problem with that at all. I see the biggest obstacle to this has been the health of BJGE. He has not been 100% healthy for at least half of the season, maybe more. Woody is not the kind of back you can use 20 carries a game and has also missed several games. And Faulk, the only other veteran RB on the team, came off of the PUP list after week 6, played most of the Pittsburgh game, and has been out again since then. That leaves two rookies with minimal game experience, who had no spring sessions, no playbook to study, no veteran tutoring on how things work etc. as your running backs. BB is NOT going to put those guys into a position where they could cost you a game, so the offense has been limited in the running game, which definitely has an affect on the passing side. IF BJGE is now healthy, you will start to see a more balanced attack, with more play action and less shotgun. Realistically, you have to go with what gives you the best chance to win, and I believe the Pats do that week in and week out.
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    In Response to Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? :      "Running more" ensures absolutely nothing !!!! What good would it be if the Pats run the ball 30 times, but average 2-3 yards per carry?       Nor is success for this team predicated on the defense suddenly playing like the "85 Bears. That's not going to happen.      The key to success for the 2011 Pats is predicated on the play of the OL. If they block well, Tom Brady gets the time he needs to pick any defense apart. If they block well, the Pats then will be able to successfully run the ball. 
    Posted by TexasPat3



    This is true. The line was identified as one of the two problems with the O going in. The lack of a viable deep threat is the other concern.
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    i think the balance is better, its more when they chose to run that can drive me crazy. like when they played the bills and were 1st and goal inside the 10 with a couple of minutes before the half, to me that's a good time to run the ball, eat the clock and score before half. instead they pass and its intercepted, giving the bills enough time to kick a fg before the half. 6 to 10 point swing just before the half. big time momentum change.

    another example is when its 2nd and short, i know that's a good time to take a shot down the field once in a while but imo most of the time its effective to keep the chains moving and eating the clock. over the course of a game little things like that wear out opposing defenses and start to break them. 

    one more example is when the back gets stuffed for no gain they tend to abandon the run for too long, it sometimes takes a few downs to become effective running the ball. 

    they have to throw the ball and brady is one of the best at it, but without balance no matter how good the passing game is, teams will figure it out.  same would go for a team that runs on every down.  its all about balance...

    just my opinion..
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    Here are the first 7 runs- 2, 3, 3, 4, 2, 5, 3. 22 yards, 3.1YPC Here are the first 7 runs in the second half- 2, 8, 12, 0, 5, 8, 10. 45 yards, 6.4 YPC
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : And why was that? Becuase they were THROWING it?
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    Not really, but that wasn't my point. The reason they didn't get anything done running in the first half wasn't that they didn't try, it was simply that they didn't execute.
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : Of course THIS ALL IGNORES WHAT THE DEFENSE IS DOING. Many of you would call a run with 11 men at the line.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    Not sure what you are referring to, since right near the beginning of my post I said:

    "But you can't conclude that utilizing the running game more will always help the offense, because a lot of what works or doesn't work depends on the defense and what it's doing."

    I think this makes the point that what the defense is doing does matter quite a bit.  Maybe I wasn't clear, though.  Yeah, if the D puts 10 guys in the box, then the odds of the run working are pretty low. What people don't quite get is that the Patriots generally pass in the short part of the field, so even when defenses are playing the pass, they are playing close to the LOS, which means they're also in pretty good position to defend the run.  The lack of a credible deep threat hurts us both in the pass and the run, because defenses don't feel like they need to keep their safeties back . . . at least until Gronk beats them over the top . . .
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : Yeah, it really hurts as they are only 18-4 since jettisoning Moss.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    Well Moss had ceased to be a great deep threat some time in 2009, which is why BB jettisoned him after that fiasco with the Jets in 2010 (where Moss, despite the one nice catch in the first half, was awful). 

    The Pats are great at stretching the field horizontally and working the short zones and they can often rack up 30 points in a game doing just that.  But every once in a while you'll get a team that can take that away and then the lack of diversity in the offense hurts. At those times, a better running game or a more effective vertical passing game would help.  It's not like the team is awful by any means . . . it's just that it has a weakness that unfortunately has been exploited in some key games, including their last two playoff games. 
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : Like how about when the Jets D was just standing around and not showing whether they were going to play run or pass?  What do you call then?
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    You see, I am assuming the Pats passed so much that game becasue they saw the tendency of the JEts was to play a bit more to the run (after getting burned by the run the game before).

    I might be giving them (obrien?) a bit more credit than they deserve but I think they adjusted very well that game.

    There are individual plays you cannot really for sure know what hre D is going to do and then there are defensive game plans like try to take away Welker, or try to take away the run...if you can figure what that is for the defense you are against, which I believe they did against the JEts and in the second half against KC then you are golden.
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    I am not claiming that the run was making major headway in and of itself.  My assertion, as is O'Brien's, is that the running game opens up the field.  So they may not beable to rip-off three straight running plays to start their 1st possession.  But maybe on second down, when less expected.  Second down again.  First down.  Third down.  Keep the D off-kiklter, guessing.  Before they started running more last night, I watch the replays from Brady's perspective and each time his receivers were covered with Magic Shell, i.e., super-tight coverage. He was coverage-scaked.  So they started running, and lo' and behold, KC couldn't double-cover Brady';s three targets anymore and he starts completeing passes.  And then the runs start getting some nice gains, and voila', the O gets traction. That's what I saw.
    Posted by chrisakawoody



    But that is really just football common sense. 

    The issue, I think on this forum, arises when running is not working, and they fall behind. 

    How many games start off with a 50-50 or 55-45 run pass ratio, then in the last quarter turn into pas fests because they need to come back. 
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : Not really, but that wasn't my point. The reason they didn't get anything done running in the first half wasn't that they didn't try, it was simply that they didn't execute.
    Posted by shenanigan


    That is the only reason this offense doesn't simply roll 100% of the time. 

    It's the best, or one of the three best in the league .. and against most opponents only they can stop themselves. 

    The opening sequence was textbook. Dropped pass by BJGE, failed run, blown protection. 

    Poor execution ... and people will blame BB or O'brien for that. 
     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success? : Not sure what you are referring to, since right near the beginning of my post I said: "But you can't conclude that utilizing the running game more will always help the offense, because a lot of what works or doesn't work depends on the defense and what it's doing." I think this makes the point that what the defense is doing does matter quite a bit.  Maybe I wasn't clear, though.  Yeah, if the D puts 10 guys in the box, then the odds of the run working are pretty low. What people don't quite get is that the Patriots generally pass in the short part of the field, so even when defenses are playing the pass, they are playing close to the LOS, which means they're also in pretty good position to defend the run.  The lack of a credible deep threat hurts us both in the pass and the run, because defenses don't feel like they need to keep their safeties back . . . at least until Gronk beats them over the top . . .
    Posted by prolate0spheroid

    I've been posting this since last season. A lot of people still don't see it. It's alright. 

    What you are saying is the truth. Teams that have physical corners pose problems. 

    From press man, with a safety up any defense is in position to:

    Cover a TE man2man, stuff the run with extra bodies, push smallish WRs around and Woodhead, bracket Welker, and disguise blitzes. 

    Only a few teams have the personnel to do this consistently.

    And running the ball at it is not the answer. Nor are screens. Trying to synthetsize a working vertical game is the answer when people are clogging the middle of the feild from 15-10 yards in. 

     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    the logic behind why people justify abandoning the run when it does not work early befuddles me. under the same logic, shouldn't that also mean we should abandon the pass when it does not work early? if not, why?



     
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    Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?

    In Response to Re: Is running more the secret to the Pats' success?:
    I say go back to running 31% of the time.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    I do not. I say tailor the game plan to what the opponent does well and what they do not do well. 

     
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