Is this diagram accurate?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Is this diagram accurate?

    Discuss

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    I would add a category for patriot fans... entitled

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

    I would add a category for patriot fans... entitled



    Hear, hear.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    The first two replies prove the obnoxious part. Not that the replies are obnoxious, but they do illustrate the biggest thing that other fans see in Pats fans which they perceive as being obnoxious.

     

    Which is; the constant homer overrating of the team. The homers generally think every Pats player is better than they are and do exactly the opposite when judging most other teams players. While a bit of that is expected, the too often complete lack of objectivity is very annoying to other fans. And I would say a majority of Pats fans fit the description.

    I don't think Pats fans are exceptionally violent.....  but obnoxious?; among the worst, and I have just explained why.

    In general I think the chart is accurate. And in general I think the homers have no clue that they are why we are considered obnoxious.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    Interesting discussion of your perspective on the matter, Babe.  And clearly stated if I may say so.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

    I would add a category for patriot fans... entitled




    I don't think many Pats fans feel entitled. I think many feel great opportunities are being squandered and dread the aftermath where those opportunities will no longer exist.

    I think the fans who lack objectivity wrongly see that concern as persons feeling entitled.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    I have no idea why the jets fans don't make the obnoxious circle. They may not be the homers Pats fans are, but there are no more obnoxious fans on Earth.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    Jets and Giants fans need to be moved so they are also members of the obnoxious set. Pats need to be moved out of the violent set.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?


    babe, i have no problem with your view on that. Your perception and my perception on the entitlement of Patriot fans are just that... your perception and my perception. It is a different view that each of us holds based on how we view the attitudes of those pat's fans we inetract with.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

    Jets and Giants fans need to be moved so they are also members of the obnoxious set. Pats need to be moved out of the violent set.




    Jet fans are just frustrated. i know many giant fans who are good reasonable fans. The one that resides on this board would be laughed at by the tried and true Giant fans.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     


    I don't think many Pats fans feel entitled. I think many feel great opportunities are being squandered and dread the aftermath where those opportunities will no longer exist.

     

    I think the fans who lack objectivity wrongly see that concern as persons feeling entitled.

     



    That basically sums up my feeling exactly. I don't think I'm entitled to anything but I also hate the "you must not remember what it was like before so sit back shut up and enjoy it" crowd. It's because I remember what it's like before that I don't want to squander what we have now. Brady does have an experation date. We don't know what it is but it is coming at some point. Eventually our team will look like Pit and that's just how the cycles in the NFL happen. However, while we have Brady I want to get the most out of that time which to me means spending and doing what you can to get the most out of this time. You have to be objective in this pursuit and realize that not all the moves were the best moves possible at that time and some moves were just silly, for example the WRs. Not saying we didn't need to get younger but all in a single year towards the end of Bradys career? How about bringing in some younger vets to help develop or spending a little higher in the draft for slightly more knowns instead of injury risk players (Tate) and unknown talents (Price) and trying to work them in over the years. How about instead of waiting for your key D players to run out their contracts or retire before looking for replacements you get them a year earlier (see what they did with Solder and Light)? How about investing a little more money into a position that has plagued you for years instead of looking for the temp fix or value players (ie DBs). On occassion BB has shown hints of doing the above moving up for Hightower and Jones, drafting Solder, getting Talib but more often than not he hasn't shown the willingness to take the added risk of a failed moved over taking the less risk value move. Not everyone is perfect and BB isn't either but sometimes I do feel his ego gets in his own way thinking he can turn a lesser player into the same player as a higher talented one but for cheaper. And yes I do feel this has hurt the team and currently hurts the team.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?


    It's pretty simple really......

    There are homers & haters.

    Homers are people who have faith in their team, their players, their coach/GM. They enjoy watching each week, seeing improvement. They don't get ready to jump off the cliff over a few mistakes or weaknesses. They get behind their team. They know that people like BB knows more about this game & how to run a team than all of us put together. We are happy to have a shot at the big show almost every year for the last dozen+ years. We understand that the team will not need pro-bowlers at ever position, and that winning the superbowl is painfully tough to accomplish every year. Our world doesn't end when the team plays like crap. We are happy....and football is actually fun.

    Then we have the haters. They are never happy with the team, the coach, the way they do things. They always have something negative to say about every action the team makes. Poor drafting, poor coaching, bad GMs, average players....I'm not sure they are happy in life in general....but this is their choice. This is how they claim that they care about the team, by questioning every move the team makes. Why these folks don't work for the team with their vast knowledge of how to run a NFL team is a mystery.

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    The first two replies prove the obnoxious part. 

    I think its very telling that you took these replies as a personal attack, time to look in the mirror perhaps..?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    I don't think many Pats fans feel entitled. I think many feel great opportunities are being squandered and dread the aftermath where those opportunities will no longer exist.

    I think the fans who lack objectivity wrongly see that concern as persons feeling entitled.

     



    I don't think that's quite it. I think the entitlement mentality is what causes fans to be seen as obnoxious, and it's primarily manifest among those who have followed the team for the last 8 or 10 or 12 years. They have no sense of the history of the team, and why should they?

    When I started the following the Pats in the early 1970s, I had no appreciation of what happened in the '60s; it didn't mean anything to me, other than stories related to me by my father who went to AFL games in Fenway and Harvard Stadium. 

    Unless you lived through Clive Rush and Fairbanks and Rod Rust and so on, how could you know what those pre-Kraft/Parcells/BB years were like? You can't, no matter how many times you read or hear about it. 

    For me, the Kraft years (and that includes back to Parcells) are still a little unreal and I don't take one bit of it for granted. But if you don't know who Hugh Millen is, or how close they came to moving the team to about five different cities, then you only know times when the Patriots mattered, they are relevant.

    You only know sellouts and playoffs, so you think that's how the NFL works. They've made it look too easy to win 11 games and remain relevant year after year. So, just like Red Sox fans who came along in the 2000s, you feel entitled. That's human nature.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to tanbass' comment:

    It's pretty simple really......

    There are homers & haters.

    As an accused "homer" I don't see this at all, when the team was crummy I wasn't painting them to be Super Bowl contenders.  From the moment Tim Tebow was signed I said he stunk, same as Donald Jones, I always said Love and Deaderick were substandard starters, that Arrington was great in the slot but not very good out on the edges... some of us are very logical and measured with our assessments of this team.

    If I tend to see the good in most Patriots players it's for a very good reason, Bill Belichick knows more than me and history has proven this to be so.  There is an upside and downside to just about every player, I have to assume he can pull the best out of all of them.  The downside occurs because you can't rely on people and you can't measure a man's heart.  Some guys when they get that first pay day give up, they've been beaten up from four years of college, four years of high school all the way down to peewee and their only goal was to make the NFL.  There's no way to measure that and that's why the draft is an inexact science.

    Its very easy and lazy to assume everybody will sux, I can see why some people do it, if you have low expectations than people can't let you down, if they turn out to be good than you're pleasantly surprised, it's a survival mechanism.  I'd like to think I can be measured and logical about all players but I'll admit that sometimes I fall in love with upside, I fall back on BB's expertise, so I'm right more than I'm wrong.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to tanbass' comment:


    It's pretty simple really......

    There are homers & haters.

    Homers are people who have faith in their team, their players, their coach/GM. They enjoy watching each week, seeing improvement. They don't get ready to jump off the cliff over a few mistakes or weaknesses. They get behind their team. They know that people like BB knows more about this game & how to run a team than all of us put together. We are happy to have a shot at the big show almost every year for the last dozen+ years. We understand that the team will not need pro-bowlers at ever position, and that winning the superbowl is painfully tough to accomplish every year. Our world doesn't end when the team plays like crap. We are happy....and football is actually fun.

    Then we have the haters. They are never happy with the team, the coach, the way they do things. They always have something negative to say about every action the team makes. Poor drafting, poor coaching, bad GMs, average players....I'm not sure they are happy in life in general....but this is their choice. This is how they claim that they care about the team, by questioning every move the team makes. Why these folks don't work for the team with their vast knowledge of how to run a NFL team is a mystery.

     

     



    I think you are talking about not even 20% of the fanbase. I think most fall into a grey area where no everything is perfect but at the same time they wouldn't want to root for any other team. Why is it such a black and white issue to you? 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    Certain Pats fans look at the past 13 years and take for granted that this Pats team will be a perennial playoff contender.  The Belichick era has spoiled many fans, especially the newer ones.  (Not to pick on the young guys.) 

    I've watched the Patriots fan base morph over the years.  One of my first games was a cold, rainy day in the old stadium and despite the poor showing on the field, the fans had fun tailgating and cheering the team on.  People used to show up for games and sit their a rses on aluminum plank seats and cheer the team even when they lost handily. A lot of fans today get upset when they only score 30 points and if they guys on their fantasy league roster don't perform. 

    I am not a lifelong resident of Boston.  I moved here over twenty years ago as a teen.  I remember when the Patriots were awful, the days of Marc Wilson, Tony Eason and double digit losses.  This team was not the class of the NFL.  You know what though, it just seemed more genuine then.  People didn't take for granted that their team would win 12 games and make a deep playoff run.  Success has blinded some people around here, and a lot of you have become like the worst of the NY Yankee fans who think it's their birth right to have their team win it all every year.     



     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I don't think many Pats fans feel entitled. I think many feel great opportunities are being squandered and dread the aftermath where those opportunities will no longer exist.

    I think the fans who lack objectivity wrongly see that concern as persons feeling entitled.

     

     



    I don't think that's quite it. I think the entitlement mentality is what causes fans to be seen as obnoxious, and it's primarily manifest among those who have followed the team for the last 8 or 10 or 12 years. They have no sense of the history of the team, and why should they?

     

    When I started the following the Pats in the early 1970s, I had no appreciation of what happened in the '60s; it didn't mean anything to me, other than stories related to me by my father who went to AFL games in Fenway and Harvard Stadium. 

    Unless you lived through Clive Rush and Fairbanks and Rod Rust and so on, how could you know what those pre-Kraft/Parcells/BB years were like? You can't, no matter how many times you read or hear about it. 

    For me, the Kraft years (and that includes back to Parcells) are still a little unreal and I don't take one bit of it for granted. But if you don't know who Hugh Millen is, or how close they came to moving the team to about five different cities, then you only know times when the Patriots mattered, they are relevant.

    You only know sellouts and playoffs, so you think that's how the NFL works. They've made it look too easy to win 11 games and remain relevant year after year. So, just like Red Sox fans who came along in the 2000s, you feel entitled. That's human nature.

    [/QUOTE]

    Muz I like you man but that was one of the most pretentious statements I've read. If you didn't live through 'X' then you can't comment on state 'b'. There are plenty of fans, including myself, who lived through the early 90's and preKraft years who see this team and that they could have won more if not for some foolish moves and not getting proper talent. There are plenty of fans who see the Brady years as once in a lifetime event and don't want it wasted. There are plenty of fans who want better for the team because they know what it's going to look like when Brady is gone and want to maximize every second we have him. If you lived through the preKraft years you should be wanting to squeeze every last oppertunity from this team as possible because you know what's coming. Those who have only known winning are the ones who sit back and say everything is fine because they keep winning. They can't see what's coming so they think everything is fine and the winning ways will continue indefinitly. The rest of us should want to maximize what little time we have left by surrounding the once in a lifetime QB with the best talent available to the team.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    I don't think of Pats fans as violent at all. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    I don't think of Pats fans as violent at all. 




    i would agree especially since kraft took over. I attended a fair share of games in the 80's and  missed very few games since the early 90's and prior to the Kraft regime it was a common occurence to see fights in the stands and during tailgating. Since then the due to a host of reasons it is rare to see any violent acts including including shouting matches, if this is the way violence is being depicted in the diagram.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    Certain Pats fans look at the past 13 years and take for granted that this Pats team will be a perennial playoff contender.  The Belichick era has spoiled many fans, especially the newer ones.  (Not to pick on the young guys.) 

    ....I remember when the Patriots were awful, the days of Marc Wilson, Tony Eason and double digit losses.  This team was not the class of the NFL.  You know what though, it just seemed more genuine then.  People didn't take for granted that their team would win 12 games and make a deep playoff run.  Success has blinded some people around here, and a lot of you have become like the worst of the NY Yankee fans who think it's their birth right to have their team win it all every year.     

     



    Yes, just try and picture yourself as a diehard fan of the Jags. They had a few good years, but that was long ago. Now, they're utterly irrelevant, hopeless. There's constant talk of moving the team and if they did, not many would really notice. 

    That's what it was like to root for the Pats in the pre-Kraft years.  

    Now, if the Jags suddenly started winning 12 games and multiple Super Bowls, their fans would be grateful. They certainly wouldn't feel like they were entitled to any of it, because they would have a clear memory of what it's like to be irrelevant. If you don't know what that's like you feel, and act, entitled,

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    I think you are talking about not even 20% of the fanbase. I think most fall into a grey area where no everything is perfect but at the same time they wouldn't want to root for any other team. Why is it such a black and white issue to you? 

     



    See...that's just it. Most of the people being labled as "homers" DO NOT think the team is perfect. This has nothing to do with being black & white for me.....that's not how I feel at all. I have FAITH in this team.....I have FAITH in BB....I have FAITH in Brady.....I have FAITH in the team around them.

    I am not blind. I understand there are weaknesses. I understand that BB hasn't drafted perfectly. I undertsand that we might not win the superbowl every year. I have no problems with people discussing what this team may need to improve and bring home another Lombardi. But you must admit, there are a substantial amount of posters here that (come across) as always pi$$ed off about every move BB makes. These folks never appear happy.....ever. If that's the way they choose to "enjoy" their team.....have at it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from cyncalpatfan. Show cyncalpatfan's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to tanbass's comment:


    It's pretty simple really......

    There are homers & haters.

    Homers are people who have faith in their team, their players, their coach/GM. They enjoy watching each week, seeing improvement. They don't get ready to jump off the cliff over a few mistakes or weaknesses. They get behind their team. They know that people like BB knows more about this game & how to run a team than all of us put together. We are happy to have a shot at the big show almost every year for the last dozen+ years. We understand that the team will not need pro-bowlers at ever position, and that winning the superbowl is painfully tough to accomplish every year. Our world doesn't end when the team plays like crap. We are happy....and football is actually fun.

    Then we have the haters. They are never happy with the team, the coach, the way they do things. They always have something negative to say about every action the team makes. Poor drafting, poor coaching, bad GMs, average players....I'm not sure they are happy in life in general....but this is their choice. This is how they claim that they care about the team, by questioning every move the team makes. Why these folks don't work for the team with their vast knowledge of how to run a NFL team is a mystery.

     

     



    Just my opinion, but why don't we label them what they truly seem to be?  They aren't homers and haters.  They are simply optimists and pessimists.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

      I remember when the Patriots were awful, the days of Marc Wilson, Tony Eason and double digit losses.  This team was not the class of the NFL.  You know what though, it just seemed more genuine then.  People didn't take for granted that their team would win 12 games and make a deep playoff run.  Success has blinded some people around here, and a lot of you have become like the worst of the NY Yankee fans who think it's their birth right to have their team win it all every year.     



    Exactly. And when we don't win every game 42-0, it's time to play keyboard GM, and tell us all how bad BB is, how many mistakes he's made....and how much better they could do. I wish year like 2007 never happened. It has spolied the fanbase around here bigtime!!

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

    Just my opinion, but why don't we label them what they truly seem to be?  They aren't homers and haters.  They are simply optimists and pessimists.

     




    Whatever works for ya bro!!

     
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