Is this diagram accurate?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to tanbass's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    I think you are talking about not even 20% of the fanbase. I think most fall into a grey area where no everything is perfect but at the same time they wouldn't want to root for any other team. Why is it such a black and white issue to you? 

     

     



    See...that's just it. Most of the people being labled as "homers" DO NOT think the team is perfect. This has nothing to do with being black & white for me.....that's not how I feel at all. I have FAITH in this team.....I have FAITH in BB....I have FAITH in Brady.....I have FAITH in the team around them.

     

    I am not blind. I understand there are weaknesses. I understand that BB hasn't drafted perfectly. I undertsand that we might not win the superbowl every year. I have no problems with people discussing what this team may need to improve and bring home another Lombardi. But you must admit, there are a substantial amount of posters here that (come across) as always pi$$ed off about every move BB makes. These folks never appear happy.....ever. If that's the way they choose to "enjoy" their team.....have at it.




    i agree it is one thing to have a discussion in a vacuum about personel moves but NONE OF US have a seat at the table when the team building plans are being debated or  free agents are discussed or how their  draft board is built or which players deserve extensions. They not only look at the impact for the current year but i would bet that the majority of all decisions are based on what the impact will be to the roster 2, 3 4 sometimes 5 years down the road  or the flexibility/restrictions these decisons place upon them as far as the cap is concerned from year to year.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    I wouldnt say I was violent.  I dont know about every fan base but I can def. cosign the Cowboy fans being some of the most obnoxious fans Ever. I have a few friends who are and I cant even be around them more than a minute.  Being that its probably because of their dynasty, pats fans probably are too but maybe I just dont notice it as much..

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from cyncalpatfan. Show cyncalpatfan's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to ghostofjri37's comment:

    In response to tanbass's comment:

     

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    I think you are talking about not even 20% of the fanbase. I think most fall into a grey area where no everything is perfect but at the same time they wouldn't want to root for any other team. Why is it such a black and white issue to you? 

     

     



    See...that's just it. Most of the people being labled as "homers" DO NOT think the team is perfect. This has nothing to do with being black & white for me.....that's not how I feel at all. I have FAITH in this team.....I have FAITH in BB....I have FAITH in Brady.....I have FAITH in the team around them.

     

    I am not blind. I understand there are weaknesses. I understand that BB hasn't drafted perfectly. I undertsand that we might not win the superbowl every year. I have no problems with people discussing what this team may need to improve and bring home another Lombardi. But you must admit, there are a substantial amount of posters here that (come across) as always pi$$ed off about every move BB makes. These folks never appear happy.....ever. If that's the way they choose to "enjoy" their team.....have at it.

     




     

    i agree it is one thing to have a discussion in a vacuum about personel moves but NONE OF US have a seat at the table when the team building plans are being debated or  free agents are discussed or how their  draft board is built or which players deserve extensions. They not only look at the impact for the current year but i would bet that the majority of all decisions are based on what the impact will be to the roster 2, 3 4 sometimes 5 years down the road  or the flexibility/restrictions these decisons place upon them as far as the cap is concerned from year to year.



    Excellent point.  There are likely a myriad of variables that go into making roster decisions.  Undoubtedly, details that, those of us on the outside of the organization, have no awareness or understanding of.  I'm with you...I believe they make all of their decisions with the long-term in mind.  I think that is evident, based on the consistent results that are produced year in and year out.  So many of the more pessimistic posters continually fret about what will happen once Brady is gone.  I would not be surprised if they have already initiated the plan that addresses that future reality.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to tanbass' comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I think you are talking about not even 20% of the fanbase. I think most fall into a grey area where no everything is perfect but at the same time they wouldn't want to root for any other team. Why is it such a black and white issue to you? 

     

     



    See...that's just it. Most of the people being labled as "homers" DO NOT think the team is perfect. This has nothing to do with being black & white for me.....that's not how I feel at all. I have FAITH in this team.....I have FAITH in BB....I have FAITH in Brady.....I have FAITH in the team around them.

     

    I am not blind. I understand there are weaknesses. I understand that BB hasn't drafted perfectly. I undertsand that we might not win the superbowl every year. I have no problems with people discussing what this team may need to improve and bring home another Lombardi. But you must admit, there are a substantial amount of posters here that (come across) as always pi$$ed off about every move BB makes. These folks never appear happy.....ever. If that's the way they choose to "enjoy" their team.....have at it.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think there are a substantial amount of posters here that are always po'd about every move BB makes. I do think that every move does get looked at negatively but not by the same posters everytime. I think your generalizing everyone when you make that statement. ie, I didn't like the A Wilson move, I didn't agree with how they handled the WRs in FA and I don't like they didn't bring in depth at DL or CB however, I did like the OL moves and that they brought in Washington for kickoffs (which of course they aren't using him for) and I did like they extended Nink. However, other posters might feel different about the moves I did like so as a whole the forum seems negative however I think individually each poster has moves they do and don't like. Very few I think don't like every move just the same as very few love every move. We all have some point of faith and some the faith isn't blind but the vast majority love the team and want to see the best for it. Just because they express it through concern doesn't make them haters. However, homers are those who see no wrong and have blind faith that nothing can or does go wrong because BB knows better than all of us combined. Well I'm sure judges know the laws better than any of us but I do question their judgements at times, and I'm sure my CEO knows more about the company than I do but sometimes their actions hurt the company so we are told if we have doubts about a directive to talk with our direct bosses and to bring up those concerns not just sit on our hands and watch what happens. But saying people either fall into homers or haters is a black or white statement. Just like saying there are only optimists and pessimists. You forget their are also realists as optimists refuse to see the wrong while pessimists refuse to see what's right but realists get yelled at by both sides and see that thing can be both right and wrong at the same time

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    ....


    Muz I like you man but that was one of the most pretentious statements I've read. If you didn't live through 'X' then you can't comment on state 'b'. There are plenty of fans, including myself, who lived through the early 90's and preKraft years who see this team and that they could have won more if not for some foolish moves and not getting proper talent. There are plenty of fans who see the Brady years as once in a lifetime event and don't want it wasted. There are plenty of fans who want better for the team because they know what it's going to look like when Brady is gone and want to maximize every second we have him. If you lived through the preKraft years you should be wanting to squeeze every last oppertunity from this team as possible because you know what's coming. Those who have only known winning are the ones who sit back and say everything is fine because they keep winning. They can't see what's coming so they think everything is fine and the winning ways will continue indefinitly. The rest of us should want to maximize what little time we have left by surrounding the once in a lifetime QB with the best talent available to the team.

     

     



    I'm reminded of a line from Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Pretentious? Whatever. I think you're being a bit defensive.

     

    Anyway, I was commenting on why, in my opinion, some fans seem entitled (and therefore obnoxious). I don't think fans who criticize various transactions or decisions are acting entitled. Criticism based on rational thought is fair.

    But there are those who take a micro view, who are overly critical of every decision and not in a rational way, and who never just let it go. The draft record of the GM in 2006 and 2007 might not be so hot, OK, we get it. Move on.

    They've done a pretty good job building a team that wins EVERY year. You want to say it's all the QB, fine, you're entitled. But there is NO OTHER TEAM, not Manning's Colts, not Ben's Steelers, not Eli's NYGs, not Flacco's ravens, not Brees' Saints, not anybody, that has won as consistently as this team has for this long.

    That's the bottom line. That's why some of us that take a macro view, have faith that, in the end, they'll be fine. Even if the second round pick three years ago was a bust. We'll get past that.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    The first two replies prove the obnoxious part. Not that the replies are obnoxious, but they do illustrate the biggest thing that other fans see in Pats fans which they perceive as being obnoxious.

     

    Which is; the constant homer overrating of the team. The homers generally think every Pats player is better than they are and do exactly the opposite when judging most other teams players. While a bit of that is expected, the too often complete lack of objectivity is very annoying to other fans. And I would say a majority of Pats fans fit the description.

    I don't think Pats fans are exceptionally violent.....  but obnoxious?; among the worst, and I have just explained why.

    In general I think the chart is accurate. And in general I think the homers have no clue that they are why we are considered obnoxious.




    Babe, I couldn't agree more with you on this and I have been pointing out for quite sometime around here that many on this forum are not able to be objective when discussing the Patriots, that is why Patriots fans are some of the most hated fans.

    I don't see the violent part.  However, I could see some of these discussion around here turning into a big ol slobberknocker if discussed in person.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    ....


    Muz I like you man but that was one of the most pretentious statements I've read. If you didn't live through 'X' then you can't comment on state 'b'. There are plenty of fans, including myself, who lived through the early 90's and preKraft years who see this team and that they could have won more if not for some foolish moves and not getting proper talent. There are plenty of fans who see the Brady years as once in a lifetime event and don't want it wasted. There are plenty of fans who want better for the team because they know what it's going to look like when Brady is gone and want to maximize every second we have him. If you lived through the preKraft years you should be wanting to squeeze every last oppertunity from this team as possible because you know what's coming. Those who have only known winning are the ones who sit back and say everything is fine because they keep winning. They can't see what's coming so they think everything is fine and the winning ways will continue indefinitly. The rest of us should want to maximize what little time we have left by surrounding the once in a lifetime QB with the best talent available to the team.

     

     



    I'm reminded of a line from Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Pretentious? Whatever. I think you're being a bit defensive.

     

    Anyway, I was commenting on why, in my opinion, some fans seem entitled (and therefore obnoxious). I don't think fans who criticize various transactions or decisions are acting entitled. Criticism based on rational thought is fair.

    But there are those who take a micro view, who are overly critical of every decision and not in a rational way, and who never just let it go. The draft record of the GM in 2006 and 2007 might not be so hot, OK, we get it. Move on.

    They've done a pretty good job building a team that wins EVERY year. You want to say it's all the QB, fine, you're entitled. But there is NO OTHER TEAM, not Manning's Colts, not Ben's Steelers, not Eli's NYGs, not Flacco's ravens, not Brees' Saints, not anybody, that has won as consistently as this team has for this long.

    That's the bottom line. That's why some of us that take a macro view, have faith that, in the end, they'll be fine. Even if the second round pick three years ago was a bust. We'll get past that.




    Agreed about the macro view.  A lot of fans like to dive into the details of drafts, offensive or defensive schemes and the like, which can be interesting if you approach it is a rational way.  Inevitably, the discussion devolves into something else, and not in a good way.  The way I look at it, if not for one miraculous Tyree catch (or two dropped interceptions) and one unfortunate Welker drop (a tough catch if there ever was one) then this team would be 5-0 in the Superbowl, which would make just about any of the criticisms against BB and TB moot.  Not to take anything away from the Giants, they made the plays to win those games, but this team had its destiny in its own hands and sometimes it just goes the other way.  The last two SB losses have opened this team up to criticism from every talking head out there who thinks they know better than BB.

    The micro view is worthy of discussion, but the macro view often escapes those who have a reason to criticise the Pats non stop.      

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:

    Agreed about the macro view.  A lot of fans like to dive into the details of drafts, offensive or defensive schemes and the like, which can be interesting if you approach it is a rational way.  Inevitably, the discussion devolves into something else, and not in a good way.  The way I look at it, if not for one miraculous Tyree catch (or two dropped interceptions) and one unfortunate Welker drop (a tough catch if there ever was one) then this team would be 5-0 in the Superbowl, which would make just about any of the criticisms against BB and TB moot.  Not to take anything away from the Giants, they made the plays to win those games, but this team had its destiny in its own hands and sometimes it just goes the other way.  The last two SB losses have opened this team up to criticism from every talking head out there who thinks they know better than BB.

    The micro view is worthy of discussion, but the macro view often escapes those who have a reason to criticise the Pats non stop.      



    Rational thought - what a concept!!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from cyncalpatfan. Show cyncalpatfan's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    ....


    Muz I like you man but that was one of the most pretentious statements I've read. If you didn't live through 'X' then you can't comment on state 'b'. There are plenty of fans, including myself, who lived through the early 90's and preKraft years who see this team and that they could have won more if not for some foolish moves and not getting proper talent. There are plenty of fans who see the Brady years as once in a lifetime event and don't want it wasted. There are plenty of fans who want better for the team because they know what it's going to look like when Brady is gone and want to maximize every second we have him. If you lived through the preKraft years you should be wanting to squeeze every last oppertunity from this team as possible because you know what's coming. Those who have only known winning are the ones who sit back and say everything is fine because they keep winning. They can't see what's coming so they think everything is fine and the winning ways will continue indefinitly. The rest of us should want to maximize what little time we have left by surrounding the once in a lifetime QB with the best talent available to the team.

     

     



    I'm reminded of a line from Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Pretentious? Whatever. I think you're being a bit defensive.

     

    Anyway, I was commenting on why, in my opinion, some fans seem entitled (and therefore obnoxious). I don't think fans who criticize various transactions or decisions are acting entitled. Criticism based on rational thought is fair.

    But there are those who take a micro view, who are overly critical of every decision and not in a rational way, and who never just let it go. The draft record of the GM in 2006 and 2007 might not be so hot, OK, we get it. Move on.

    They've done a pretty good job building a team that wins EVERY year. You want to say it's all the QB, fine, you're entitled. But there is NO OTHER TEAM, not Manning's Colts, not Ben's Steelers, not Eli's NYGs, not Flacco's ravens, not Brees' Saints, not anybody, that has won as consistently as this team has for this long.

    That's the bottom line. That's why some of us that take a macro view, have faith that, in the end, they'll be fine. Even if the second round pick three years ago was a bust. We'll get past that.



    With or without the quote from "The Princess Bride", that's an excellent thought.  The quote simply makes it better. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Section136. Show Section136's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    ....


    Muz I like you man but that was one of the most pretentious statements I've read. If you didn't live through 'X' then you can't comment on state 'b'. There are plenty of fans, including myself, who lived through the early 90's and preKraft years who see this team and that they could have won more if not for some foolish moves and not getting proper talent. There are plenty of fans who see the Brady years as once in a lifetime event and don't want it wasted. There are plenty of fans who want better for the team because they know what it's going to look like when Brady is gone and want to maximize every second we have him. If you lived through the preKraft years you should be wanting to squeeze every last oppertunity from this team as possible because you know what's coming. Those who have only known winning are the ones who sit back and say everything is fine because they keep winning. They can't see what's coming so they think everything is fine and the winning ways will continue indefinitly. The rest of us should want to maximize what little time we have left by surrounding the once in a lifetime QB with the best talent available to the team.

     

     



    I'm reminded of a line from Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Pretentious? Whatever. I think you're being a bit defensive.

     

    Anyway, I was commenting on why, in my opinion, some fans seem entitled (and therefore obnoxious). I don't think fans who criticize various transactions or decisions are acting entitled. Criticism based on rational thought is fair.

    But there are those who take a micro view, who are overly critical of every decision and not in a rational way, and who never just let it go. The draft record of the GM in 2006 and 2007 might not be so hot, OK, we get it. Move on.

    They've done a pretty good job building a team that wins EVERY year. You want to say it's all the QB, fine, you're entitled. But there is NO OTHER TEAM, not Manning's Colts, not Ben's Steelers, not Eli's NYGs, not Flacco's ravens, not Brees' Saints, not anybody, that has won as consistently as this team has for this long.

    That's the bottom line. That's why some of us that take a macro view, have faith that, in the end, they'll be fine. Even if the second round pick three years ago was a bust. We'll get past that.

     



    With or without the quote from "The Princess Bride", that's an excellent thought.  The quote simply makes it better. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Agreed - thanks Muzwell!

     

    Princess Bride....classic!!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    [QUOTE]

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    ....


    Muz I like you man but that was one of the most pretentious statements I've read. If you didn't live through 'X' then you can't comment on state 'b'. There are plenty of fans, including myself, who lived through the early 90's and preKraft years who see this team and that they could have won more if not for some foolish moves and not getting proper talent. There are plenty of fans who see the Brady years as once in a lifetime event and don't want it wasted. There are plenty of fans who want better for the team because they know what it's going to look like when Brady is gone and want to maximize every second we have him. If you lived through the preKraft years you should be wanting to squeeze every last oppertunity from this team as possible because you know what's coming. Those who have only known winning are the ones who sit back and say everything is fine because they keep winning. They can't see what's coming so they think everything is fine and the winning ways will continue indefinitly. The rest of us should want to maximize what little time we have left by surrounding the once in a lifetime QB with the best talent available to the team.



    I'm reminded of a line from Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Pretentious? Whatever. I think you're being a bit defensive.

     

    Anyway, I was commenting on why, in my opinion, some fans seem entitled (and therefore obnoxious). I don't think fans who criticize various transactions or decisions are acting entitled. Criticism based on rational thought is fair.

    But there are those who take a micro view, who are overly critical of every decision and not in a rational way, and who never just let it go. The draft record of the GM in 2006 and 2007 might not be so hot, OK, we get it. Move on.

    They've done a pretty good job building a team that wins EVERY year. You want to say it's all the QB, fine, you're entitled. But there is NO OTHER TEAM, not Manning's Colts, not Ben's Steelers, not Eli's NYGs, not Flacco's ravens, not Brees' Saints, not anybody, that has won as consistently as this team has for this long.

    That's the bottom line. That's why some of us that take a macro view, have faith that, in the end, they'll be fine. Even if the second round pick three years ago was a bust. We'll get past that.



    With or without the quote from "The Princess Bride", that's an excellent thought.  The quote simply makes it better. 

    [/QUOTE]

    At the risk of exemplifying the intent, I believe the applicable word is presumptuous.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    At the risk of exemplifying the intent, I believe the applicable word is presumptuous.

     



    Nope pretentious was the proper word to use. That  by saying he was a fan pre Kraft that he didn't take things for granted and those who came in post Kraft do and that is why they are entitled implies an attempt to impress by affecting greater importance than is actually possessed by the length that you are a fan. Essentially saying if you weren't a fan pre Kraft you can't understand the franchises history and appriciate what has happened over the last decade. but presumptuous also fits since he makes the assumption of what pre and post Kraft fans think and understand.

    btw love the Princess Bride reference Muz but in this case the word fits by it's definition

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Homecheese. Show Homecheese's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?


    Based on some of the members on this forum, there should be a mentally ill category.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from cyncalpatfan. Show cyncalpatfan's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Homecheese's comment:


    Based on some of the members on this forum, there should be a mentally ill category.




    Very good observation, sad to say.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Which is; the constant homer overrating of the team. The homers generally think every Pats player is better than they are and do exactly the opposite when judging most other teams players. While a bit of that is expected, the too often complete lack of objectivity is very annoying to other fans. And I would say a majority of Pats fans fit the description.



    This is a complete straw man.  There are very few fans that think every player on the Pats is better than they are and that every player on other teams is overrated.  What is just as obnoxious are the fans that label every other fan that isn't as critical of the team as them as "homers" and use that label to try and discredit their opinion without making any substantive arguments.  More obnoxiously they cling to this hilarious notion that just because they are more critical that they must be objective as if those two words are synonyms (which they aren't). 

    Who is more objective?  The fans who believe that despite some mistakes the process has been sound because the Patriots have hoisted 3 Lombardis and have been inches from hoisting another 2, or the fans that think because the Patriots haven't won 5 or 6 or more championships in a 12 year period (which has never happened in any sport with a salary cap) that there is something wrong with the process and that "a blindfolded monkey throwing darts" would have been capable of assembling rosters that could have won that many titles because it is so trivial with Brady at QB.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    At the risk of exemplifying the intent, I believe the applicable word is presumptuous.

    Nope pretentious was the proper word to use. That  by saying he was a fan pre Kraft that he didn't take things for granted and those who came in post Kraft do and that is why they are entitled implies an attempt to impress by affecting greater importance than is actually possessed by the length that you are a fan. Essentially saying if you weren't a fan pre Kraft you can't understand the franchises history and appriciate what has happened over the last decade. but presumptuous also fits since he makes the assumption of what pre and post Kraft fans think and understand.

    btw love the Princess Bride reference Muz but in this case the word fits by it's definition

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, if you took what I said as an attempt to set longer term fans (like myself) above those who are younger, then I didn't state what I meant very well. I was trying to explain why younger fans may feel more entitled and may therefore come across as obnoxious (I wouldn't use that word myself, by the way, but that's the word that was used in the OP, I'd just leave it at entitled).

    Younger fans only know good times, so that's their perspective. It's understandable. There's just no way for anyone to know what something was like unless you experienced it. It doesn't make older fans any better fans, just gives them a deeper appreciation of the good times. 

    On the other hand, it might be that some folks just sweat the small stuff more than others, and some are more into the team building details than others. I look at draft picks and free agent signings as small stuff. Some are good, some not. You hope they work out, but if they don't, they don't. They don't hand out any rings in April.

    The big stuff is the finished product, how they play and especially how they finish. The pedigree of the players is unimportant.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:


    Well, if you took what I said as an attempt to set longer term fans (like myself) above those who are younger, then I didn't state what I meant very well. I was trying to explain why younger fans may feel more entitled and may therefore come across as obnoxious (I wouldn't use that word myself, by the way, but that's the word that was used in the OP, I'd just leave it at entitled).

     

    Younger fans only know good times, so that's their perspective. It's understandable. There's just no way for anyone to know what something was like unless you experienced it. It doesn't make older fans any better fans, just gives them a deeper appreciation of the good times. 

    On the other hand, it might be that some folks just sweat the small stuff more than others, and some are more into the team building details than others. I look at draft picks and free agent signings as small stuff. Some are good, some not. You hope they work out, but if they don't, they don't. They don't hand out any rings in April.

    The big stuff is the finished product, how they play and especially how they finish. The pedigree of the players is unimportant.



    I hear what you are saying but at the same time like the 86' series. I was too young to remember it all that well but I heard stories about it growing up from my Dad and Grandpa and they reminded me what it was like being a Sox fan. On the Pats side I lived through the early 90's and sat on the metal freezing my butt of with my dad watching helpless team after helpless team but my brothers 10yrs the younger. All he knows is the Kraft era and winning however, he still gets stories from our Dad and I about those trying times and how he has to take in every win because once Brady's gone things are going to change. So even though he's younger just growing up around here he's consistently reminded how good we have it now compared to before. Now out of staters who didn't grow up in a family of Pats fans I can understand having that mentality but not someone who grew up in a family that sat on the metal before Kraft. That's what I'm getting at. You can't drive a hard spike into it and say from this point on these fans are entitled but everyone before this point aren't. It just doesn't work and saying that came off as a little higher than though language (which as you can tell I don't like).

    As far as the small vs big stuff. Yes I enjoy the big picture and love the wins as a whole but each person has their own version of enjoyment. For me I love breaking down the details, getting into the nitty gritty of personal and formation conversations, watching college film looking at draft prospects. Not everyone does but some really enjoy it. I can understand why some don't get it but just because you enjoy breaking down the small stuff doesn't make you a whinner or hater or anything else it just makes you different from those who only like to look at the larger picture. It's why I can't stand the you are a "whinner" posts and arguments because it comes off as you aren't a true fan if you enjoy breaking down details and can give a logical critizism of the team from a small scale perspective. Yes to me I take it personally because it's what I enjoy and no I'm not a micro manager but you don't have to be to enjoy the smaller stuff too (it's only when you try to control all of it personally). You can enjoy the large picture while sweeting the small stuff, it's possible. The ironic thing is some that are called whinners are looking at an even bigger picture of issues that can come up 2-3 games down the road while those who claim to look at the larger picture and only enjoy the wins tend to look at it 1 game at a time.

    BTW you say if they don't work out they don't and they don't hand out rings in April which is true, but if they don't get the right people in April then they won't get a ring in Feb either. So, as part of my enjoyment I like to see players that can be improved on, where the holes are, and try to figure out the best way to fix those holes. It's a great feeling when they get a player you like and a bad feeling when they don't and that player ends up being pretty good while their spot remains bad on your team (ie wanting Goldson 2 years ago).

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    I don't think it's completely fair to use the word 'entitled'.  True fans appreciate what they have and through the years understand the teams success.  It starts with Kraft, BB, and TB.  Then when plug in players come in, the Pats have been able to get the most out of them aside from a few misses, as that happens.  

    I always liked using the expression that there people who see the Glass half full and Glass half empty.  I'm half full... or sometimes known as a 'homer' I guess.  Not sure if I have been labeled that yet.  Maybe babe called me that I am ot sure. 

    I also think those that are half empty are grumpy people that I try and not associate with. These people always find something to complain about and dwell on the past too much instead of working with what they have and appreciating those things in their possession.  

    I mean look no further than those complaining when the Pats are 3-0.  Those people would NEVER be invited over my place for a few beers, good food, and premium cigars.  Why? cause they will be the first to talk smack behind my back on their way home......

    Also...

    Entitled can also be misunderstood for Prideful, stubborn, and educated enough to make an argument with only little facts needed to create a debate.  It's admitting you  actually may be wrong that seperates the entitlement IMO.  I debate a lot with my friends to the point of yelling back and forth and we're cool after the fact... and sometimes after some thought I have realized i was wrong.  I admit that too them... which is always funny to me.  Because I speak with pride and enthusiasm.  

    Hey, it is what it is...

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    Tanbass and Muzwell hit the nails on the head.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    Discuss

     




    Interesting. The fans at the bottom are pretty much the group of teams that might be relocated. I guess their fans are just listless ... 

    I'd agree. 

    Pats fans have an air of entitlement to winning Superbowls. Many take for granted that NE will win it every season, even though they haven't in a while. 

    This can rub some people the wrong way. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Getzo's comment:

    I don't think it's completely fair to use the word 'entitled'.  True fans appreciate what they have and through the years understand the teams success.  It starts with Kraft, BB, and TB.  Then when plug in players come in, the Pats have been able to get the most out of them aside from a few misses, as that happens.  

    I always liked using the expression that there people who see the Glass half full and Glass half empty.  I'm half full... or sometimes known as a 'homer' I guess.  Not sure if I have been labeled that yet.  Maybe babe called me that I am ot sure. 

    I also think those that are half empty are grumpy people that I try and not associate with. These people always find something to complain about and dwell on the past too much instead of working with what they have and appreciating those things in their possession.  

    I mean look no further than those complaining when the Pats are 3-0.  Those people would NEVER be invited over my place for a few beers, good food, and premium cigars.  Why? cause they will be the first to talk smack behind my back on their way home......

    Also...

    Entitled can also be misunderstood for Prideful, stubborn, and educated enough to make an argument with only little facts needed to create a debate.  It's admitting you  actually may be wrong that seperates the entitlement IMO.  I debate a lot with my friends to the point of yelling back and forth and we're cool after the fact... and sometimes after some thought I have realized i was wrong.  I admit that too them... which is always funny to me.  Because I speak with pride and enthusiasm.  

    Hey, it is what it is...

     



    So Getz, what's wrong with celebrating a Pats win but calling a spade a spade and saying, they need to get the running game more involved, or the WR doesn't look great right now lets hope it improves before we need to count on them, or I never want to see Arrington on outside coverage? I agree you can't always be negative but lets face it there is a difference between saying this team sucks, this team needs to improve before they meet better teams, and this team is 3-0 lets book my SB flight. It's not just one or the other and many fans fall into that 2nd option. Does that mean you wouldn't have any of them over for a beer? Btw I found the most honest people to be the ones to express their opinion right in the open to your face (right or wrong) while the ones I tend to see talk the most behind peoples back tend to be the ones who act the most positive and pleasent around you (not always the case but two face people tend to be positive when they are around you and negative when you aren't looking).

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    Rusty fits the obnoxious side obviously!    Anyone who defends every single move his team makes and bashes every single move other teams makes obviously is an obnoxious fan, one that all other fans dislike, even fans of the same team.  He gives Pats fans a bad rap.

    As far as being violent, He probably isn't.  He is a drunk most the time, probably couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.  He couldn't fight a cold.  I know his type, probably has been on the receiving end of many beatings over the years so he probably tries to avoid violence of any kind.  Too many bad memories.

     

    ---------------------------------------------

    "Being the best doesn't mean you always win. It just means you win more than anybody else."  Text received by Tom Brady from Kurt Warner after Ravens loss.


    view my Patriots photoshops at patsfanfotoshop.tumblr.com





     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to Getzo's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I don't think it's completely fair to use the word 'entitled'.  True fans appreciate what they have and through the years understand the teams success.  It starts with Kraft, BB, and TB.  Then when plug in players come in, the Pats have been able to get the most out of them aside from a few misses, as that happens.  

    I always liked using the expression that there people who see the Glass half full and Glass half empty.  I'm half full... or sometimes known as a 'homer' I guess.  Not sure if I have been labeled that yet.  Maybe babe called me that I am ot sure. 

    I also think those that are half empty are grumpy people that I try and not associate with. These people always find something to complain about and dwell on the past too much instead of working with what they have and appreciating those things in their possession.  

    I mean look no further than those complaining when the Pats are 3-0.  Those people would NEVER be invited over my place for a few beers, good food, and premium cigars.  Why? cause they will be the first to talk smack behind my back on their way home......

    Also...

    Entitled can also be misunderstood for Prideful, stubborn, and educated enough to make an argument with only little facts needed to create a debate.  It's admitting you  actually may be wrong that seperates the entitlement IMO.  I debate a lot with my friends to the point of yelling back and forth and we're cool after the fact... and sometimes after some thought I have realized i was wrong.  I admit that too them... which is always funny to me.  Because I speak with pride and enthusiasm.  

    Hey, it is what it is...

     

     



    So Getz, what's wrong with celebrating a Pats win but calling a spade a spade and saying, they need to get the running game more involved, or the WR doesn't look great right now lets hope it improves before we need to count on them, or I never want to see Arrington on outside coverage? I agree you can't always be negative but lets face it there is a difference between saying this team sucks, this team needs to improve before they meet better teams, and this team is 3-0 lets book my SB flight. It's not just one or the other and many fans fall into that 2nd option. Does that mean you wouldn't have any of them over for a beer? Btw I found the most honest people to be the ones to express their opinion right in the open to your face (right or wrong) while the ones I tend to see talk the most behind peoples back tend to be the ones who act the most positive and pleasent around you (not always the case but two face people tend to be positive when they are around you and negative when you aren't looking).

     

    [/QUOTE]

    OK... I am not saying all is always well.  But the way some people express their concerns is a little over the top.  They expect everything to perfect from everyone but TB it seems.  

    You mention the run game... Ridley needs to hold on to the ball but when he does I feel he is one of the btter runners in the league, and then the rest of the cast back there is great depth IMO.

    The receivers are rookies and there needs to be patience, and while it's easy to see their mistakes - most seem to overlook that they have been able to get seperation.  Down field seperation has also been missing since Moss and it finally seems like there is life in that department. No one is putting Thompkins and Dobson in Canton yet, but you have to be happy with their progress.

    I will be the first one to say Arrington should never play outisde of the slot.  I don't think ANYONE on this board feels different.  However, people fail to give him credit as being the second best slot corner i the league last year, and it seems he picked up were he left off from last year in that department.  Dennard hasn't exactly been shut down on the outside, but he plays with better technique, confidence and skils at that position than we have seen in years past.

    As far as someone that says whats on their mind versus someone that talks behind backs...  I am someone that says what's on their mind...  I'm as a real as they come.  If you speak your mind and it's always in a glass half EMPTY manner, more likely than not I just don't want to build a relationship with that person.  Now I do have friends that are like that, and and i ahve half full friends like myself.  Regardless, 99.9% of the time I watch sports by myself for many reasons.   I just feel there are those that express their concerns like whiney, cry babies.

    I am invested in my sports more than I should be.  Unfortunately, I do live through my teams as if it chnages my life.  I live a simple life I guess, and I enjoy and feel like I lose and win with them.  I'm emotional I guess. Living on the west coast i also have to stick up for my teams... spy gate, tuck rule, defense sucks year after talk.... Brady overrated.... you name it.  

    Not sure if I made myself clear.  I just have more hope than doubt when it comes to my teams.  especially teams like the Pats that have done nothing but WIN for the better part of 12 years......

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from headhuntersixsix. Show headhuntersixsix's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

     

    I don't think many Pats fans feel entitled. I think many feel great opportunities are being squandered and dread the aftermath where those opportunities will no longer exist.

    I think the fans who lack objectivity wrongly see that concern as persons feeling entitled.

     

     



    I don't think that's quite it. I think the entitlement mentality is what causes fans to be seen as obnoxious, and it's primarily manifest among those who have followed the team for the last 8 or 10 or 12 years. They have no sense of the history of the team, and why should they?

     

    When I started the following the Pats in the early 1970s, I had no appreciation of what happened in the '60s; it didn't mean anything to me, other than stories related to me by my father who went to AFL games in Fenway and Harvard Stadium. 

    Unless you lived through Clive Rush and Fairbanks and Rod Rust and so on, how could you know what those pre-Kraft/Parcells/BB years were like? You can't, no matter how many times you read or hear about it. 

    For me, the Kraft years (and that includes back to Parcells) are still a little unreal and I don't take one bit of it for granted. But if you don't know who Hugh Millen is, or how close they came to moving the team to about five different cities, then you only know times when the Patriots mattered, they are relevant.

    You only know sellouts and playoffs, so you think that's how the NFL works. They've made it look too easy to win 11 games and remain relevant year after year. So, just like Red Sox fans who came along in the 2000s, you feel entitled. That's human nature.




    So true....I still pinch myself and have basically dreaded everything that comes after the Brady years. BB may be great but unless we land in an Andrew Luck situation or Montana to Young..things will get very dark up there again. Hell everything after the 01' SB is gravy at this point. They were so bad for so long. Years of watching Marino be fawned over. Just imagine if there was only Peyton and no Brady....it was bad, very bad.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Is this diagram accurate?

    PatsEng, we're generalizing here of course. You're obviously a diehard Pats fan, as it seems is your whole family. Certainly, I'm not saying younger people don't care as much. They probably care more. As you get older, your priorities tend to change and while you may still pay attention and watch/go to games, you have more important things to deal with.

    That may also be the reason I don't get so caught up in comings and goings of players. I enjoy the heck out of watching the games, but not so interested in other stuff. At least not like I used to be.

    As Seinfeld said, it's about the laundry. Whoever is wearing the uni, I'm for.

    As for Goldson, while he's solid, it seems to me a lot of his value is based on the intimidation factor. To a large extent that's being taken out of the game. Guys like him are dinosaurs. Ronnie Lott wouldn't be Ronnie Lott if he played today.

    Goldson himself has been neutered by the league. One more incident and he's gone for at least a game and maybe more at this point. That's $270K per. So, we may see him explaining to receivers that if it's not too much of an inconvenience, he's about to tackle them, that he won't hurt them and asking if they mind. I wish it weren't that way, I liked Ronnie Lott. But that's a big part of Goldson's game, gone. Now he's overpaid.

    Maybe receivers should have those crash avoidance devices implanted in their helmets, like luxury cars? You read it here first...

     

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