Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    Just a question.  I thought for the 1st few weeks he really didnt show up like I expected and besides blitzing in the preseason he hasnt really looked comfortable playing outside the box at WLB.  I know B.B. said he wouldnt move him outside the tackle box, but he actually has.  Spikes is in the middle and doing good against the run, but after having a career year last year in the middle of the 3-4, I thought he was primed for more good things, but looks lost in this 4-3. I dont think it is so much the new defense as it is him playing out of position.


    Our defense actually looked more cohesive w/out him in the lineup. I hope when he comes back that they think about moving him back and not sure what that means for Spikes, but for our best backer, I think he needs to be in position to make plays and at WLB, covering fullbacks and still getting pounded by guards, I just dont see his value there.  I takes a lot to play inside of a 3-4 and Mayo worked very hard at it only to be moved around in this new 4-3 and I think it has hindered him a bit....
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    I don't know . . . I thought he looked pretty good getting to the point of attack when he was in.  Maybe I missed some plays where he wasn't able to shed blocks, but my memories are more of him getting to the ball carrier on a few plays.  I can't say I watched him on every play or anything, but I didn't notice any problems. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Angel-of-Light. Show Angel-of-Light's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    Jay, I noticed the same thing. The Pats "D" is actually playing better after Mayo got hurt. Not sure if the other guys stepped up or the defence started to gel, but the timing of that improvement was weird.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    Mayo isn't great when reading which gap to attack in the run game. Mayo is more of a read and react type of player then a Spikes who is more instinctual. Given space and freedom on delayed blitzes Mayo can burst through gaps and attack the QB. Unfortunately we haven't used him in that role which is why he looks like he has trouble on occasion (esp in gap protection against between T runs). Mayo is an extremely gifted ILB but he needs to be placed in a position to use those gifts to attack with his strengths instead of trying to force him into formations he doesn't excel at.
     
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    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    I don't know . . . I thought he looked pretty good getting to the point of attack when he was in.  Maybe I missed some plays where he wasn't able to shed blocks, but my memories are more of him getting to the ball carrier on a few plays.  I can't say I watched him on every play or anything, but I didn't notice any problems. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid



    Pro, I dont think it was so much him playing bad, as it was him just not making an impact and being out of position. I noticed early on he was getting matched up one on ones with backs and getting exploited.  I also think him being outside the tackle box was a transition and also effects his calls as he has to get everyone the call and being outside the box may give him a difff. vantage point and view.

    I was worried about Guyton starting but he actually did pretty well. I wont say our defense played well because Mayo wasnt in there as I think the Jets offense stinks and thats part of it, but going forward I think Mayo is out of place at WLB, unless they let him loose like they did in preseason, and thats probably not gonna happen.  Hopefully him being out allows him to see it differently and he can build on that when he returns...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    Mayo isn't great when reading which gap to attack in the run game. Mayo is more of a read and react type of player then a Spikes who is more instinctual. Given space and freedom on delayed blitzes Mayo can burst through gaps and attack the QB. Unfortunately we haven't used him in that role which is why he looks like he has trouble on occasion (esp in gap protection against between T runs). Mayo is an extremely gifted ILB but he needs to be placed in a position to use those gifts to attack with his strengths instead of trying to force him into formations he doesn't excel at.
    Posted by PatsEng




    Exactly, you worded it better than I could!
     
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    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo?? : Exactly, you worded it better than I could!
    Posted by JayShizzle45


    But, being in a 4-3 scheme isn't hurting Mayo it's how he is used in that 4-3 that is. As I said if allowed to cover the LB zone, QB spy, or delayed blitz Mayo is extremely effective. All things that 4-3 ILB's can do. It's more of during non draw running plays between tackles where he doesn't have time to read and react that he takes a bad gap or angle and lets the RB run through (like in the Mia game when he ran behind Haynesworth to cover the B gap instead of staying put and taking the C gap). So, I don't think it's the scheme that's hurting him more that they were putting him in situations better suited for Spikes and not properly using his talents when he's on the field.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    I agree, if they are gonna play that 4-3, either be agressive with him like in preseason or just put him back in between the tackles where he is comfortable.

    I know Mayo can play the 4-3 as he did in college, but positioning is key like you said.


    I think part of the problem in this 4-3, is there is only one ILB and Spikes probably isnt trusted to play WLB as he would do worse covering backs then Mayo would.

    Good problem to have in the 3-4, but in this 4-3 now its forcing Mayo to play out of position.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    Just a question.  I thought for the 1st few weeks he really didnt show up like I expected and besides blitzing in the preseason he hasnt really looked comfortable playing outside the box at WLB.  I know B.B. said he wouldnt move him outside the tackle box, but he actually has.  Spikes is in the middle and doing good against the run, but after having a career year last year in the middle of the 3-4, I thought he was primed for more good things, but looks lost in this 4-3. I dont think it is so much the new defense as it is him playing out of position. Our defense actually looked more cohesive w/out him in the lineup. I hope when he comes back that they think about moving him back and not sure what that means for Spikes, but for our best backer, I think he needs to be in position to make plays and at WLB, covering fullbacks and still getting pounded by guards, I just dont see his value there.  I takes a lot to play inside of a 3-4 and Mayo worked very hard at it only to be moved around in this new 4-3 and I think it has hindered him a bit....
    Posted by JayShizzle45


    Mayo came from a 4-3 defense where he played strong, weak and a full year, his last in the middle.

    Mayo's production may improve if the patriots target a first round strong side backer for the 4-3 and move Mayo back to the middle.

    trouble is that would then hault the growth of Spikes and Dane Fletcher.

    I have said it MANY times
    there is a reason Brace and Deaderick are on the PUP...
    Bill only intends on employing this Defense for one year...

    You will see Courtney Upshaw on the patriots mock boards a ton because he can play strong side in the 4-3 and ROLB in the 3-4.

    I think this defense hinges on the success and failure of the haynesworth, mark anderson and andre carter project.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    Thats what Im worried about. I know we can find a pure 4-3 DE that will help our pass rush next year and this is assuming we stay in this defense.  If you go back to 3-4 next year, you can easily drop Carter and Haynesworth, but is Brace the future at DE playing 3 technique. Is Deaderick more than just a subpackage rusher? Is M.Wright playing here next year?  Lots of questions and although I was excited about the change, I expected more agressive play. I cant get too excited about sunday as the jets offense isnt a good barameter for our defense, they just s uck!

    Against Dallas our defense will be tested. I am curious to see what changes may happen if Brace/Deaderick come back....im not impressed with Aintsworth and have expressed this for a few weeks now.  Just not a good sign if he is our saviour.  Dude is still out of shape 5 weeks into the season and only played a handful of snaps sunday and got cramps?!?!

    Carter, Ellis are playing too many snaps IMO, and I also dont like Vince and Love playing all game....where is all the depth we had in preseason???
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188. Show Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    Just a question.  I thought for the 1st few weeks he really didnt show up like I expected and besides blitzing in the preseason he hasnt really looked comfortable playing outside the box at WLB.  I know B.B. said he wouldnt move him outside the tackle box, but he actually has.  Spikes is in the middle and doing good against the run, but after having a career year last year in the middle of the 3-4, I thought he was primed for more good things, but looks lost in this 4-3. I dont think it is so much the new defense as it is him playing out of position. Our defense actually looked more cohesive w/out him in the lineup. I hope when he comes back that they think about moving him back and not sure what that means for Spikes, but for our best backer, I think he needs to be in position to make plays and at WLB, covering fullbacks and still getting pounded by guards, I just dont see his value there.  I takes a lot to play inside of a 3-4 and Mayo worked very hard at it only to be moved around in this new 4-3 and I think it has hindered him a bit....
    Posted by JayShizzle45


    Absolutely not!

    In the 3-4, the Middle Linebacker (Mike) is either engaging the lead blocker or flowing to the play to make tackles, but he's generally not a playmaker - that role falls onto the strong safety as a freelancer and the OLBs as edge-setters getting tackles for losses and sacks

    In the 4-3, the Weakside LineBacker (WLB) is free to flow to the ball or freelance to make plays, while the Strongside Linebacker typically is engaging the lead blocker and the Mike is typically in a similar role matched up with runningbacks or flowing to make the tackle in the run game.

    I think if he hadn't gotten hurt, you'd see Mayo doing more of the things we saw in preseason in terms of sacks, forcing fumbles, and interceptions.
     
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    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    The simple answer? YES! It is. Listen BB will go back to the 3-4 base, he has run it for over 30 years and it is his bread and butter. And MAyo NEEDS to be the best damn 3-4 Middle Linebacker there is and having him go back and forth will hurt his growth. HOWEVER at the same time it is good that they are making him try a lot of new looks and get him used to a multiple defense set that calls for a mix of both 4-3 and 3-4. But as a 3-4 linebacker yes it will slow him down having to also be a 4-3 OLB.
    Posted by MVPkilla4life


    I disagree - Spikes can be a tackling machine in the run game, too

    Mayo's role as WLB helps free him up to look for interceptions, sack opportunities on max protects, big hits, etc. because the SLB (Ninkovich) and the Mike (Spikes) have more of the run-first clusterf***-in-a-crowd responsibilities.  If anything, now Mayo as the hardest hitter on the team can now come in late and try to force fumbles, etc.

    But he has to get healthy first. Think back to the Tampa Bay preseason game
     
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    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    In Response to Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo?? : Absolutely not! In the 3-4, the Middle Linebacker (Mike) is either engaging the lead blocker or flowing to the play to make tackles, but he's generally not a playmaker - that role falls onto the strong safety as a freelancer and the OLBs as edge-setters getting tackles for losses and sacks In the 4-3, the Weakside LineBacker (WLB) is free to flow to the ball or freelance to make plays, while the Strongside Linebacker typically is engaging the lead blocker and the Mike is typically in a similar role matched up with runningbacks or flowing to make the tackle in the run game. I think if he hadn't gotten hurt, you'd see Mayo doing more of the things we saw in preseason in terms of sacks, forcing fumbles, and interceptions.
    Posted by Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188


    Yes but in the 1st 4 games he wasnt flowing free to the ball. I recall him being overmatched trying to cover Bush out the backfield and he wasnt making plays.  I think even in the 4-3 he needs to play inside and they did that only to utilize what Spikes is good at.  Mayo was not making plays at the line like last year but rather making tackles 10 yards down the field, was not blitzing and was ineffective IMO compared to him in the 3-4 last year where he actually was runnin free despite playing the 3-4, as he mastered the position and now has to learn something different.... I think after coming back he will play better or somewhere else on the line....maybe he needs a few games seeing Guyton in there for perspective.....idk
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    In Response to Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo?? : Absolutely not! In the 3-4, the Middle Linebacker (Mike) is either engaging the lead blocker or flowing to the play to make tackles, but he's generally not a playmaker - that role falls onto the strong safety as a freelancer and the OLBs as edge-setters getting tackles for losses and sacks In the 4-3, the Weakside LineBacker (WLB) is free to flow to the ball or freelance to make plays, while the Strongside Linebacker typically is engaging the lead blocker and the Mike is typically in a similar role matched up with runningbacks or flowing to make the tackle in the run game. I think if he hadn't gotten hurt, you'd see Mayo doing more of the things we saw in preseason in terms of sacks, forcing fumbles, and interceptions.
    Posted by Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188


    You are assuming mayo played the MIKE???? He played the WILL last year... thats why he has so many dam tackles.

    I disagree Mayo plays the weak inside backer in the 3-4, the strong inside backer takes on the lead whether that be the TE to the strong side or the FB that no one employs any longer. Mayo has been a tackle machine because Deaderick, G Warren, Brace, Love and Wilfork controled there gaps while the OUTSIDE backers hold the edge so the GAPS stay tight... Which allows the strong MLB to take on the lead and keep Mayo CLEAN
     
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    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    Thats what Im worried about. I know we can find a pure 4-3 DE that will help our pass rush next year and this is assuming we stay in this defense.  If you go back to 3-4 next year, you can easily drop Carter and Haynesworth, but is Brace the future at DE playing 3 technique. Is Deaderick more than just a subpackage rusher? Is M.Wright playing here next year?  Lots of questions and although I was excited about the change, I expected more agressive play. I cant get too excited about sunday as the jets offense isnt a good barameter for our defense, they just s uck! Against Dallas our defense will be tested. I am curious to see what changes may happen if Brace/Deaderick come back....im not impressed with Aintsworth and have expressed this for a few weeks now.  Just not a good sign if he is our saviour.  Dude is still out of shape 5 weeks into the season and only played a handful of snaps sunday and got cramps?!?! Carter, Ellis are playing too many snaps IMO, and I also dont like Vince and Love playing all game....where is all the depth we had in preseason???
    Posted by JayShizzle45



    I personally feel Brace and love would make make awesome DE in the 34, Anderson and Carter could be retained as sub package rushers in the nickel.

    I would not sign Mike Wright its been three years since we have gotten decent production from him.

    Haynesworth is a rental as we assumed... They will not pay him 7 million next year unless he plays like the guy we saw in miami every weak.

    It also seams like Wilfork and Love move side to side too much as they have that 2 gap mentality rather than going straight up the field... I beleive that action prevents Haynesworth from getting good penetration at times because he isn't just bumping with his big uglys he has to bump with the likes of fork and love too.

    Time will tell but I gather the patriots will not change there scouting techniques and LOOK for different TYPES of players... I am assuming that these players, Ellis, Carter, Anderson, and Haynesworth are stopgap options.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from msteven. Show msteven's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    Spikes needs to quit celebrating when he tackles a running back 5 years downfield.  When Mayo comes back, he will be slow and timid for a few games.  Haynesworth will be a good pickup in the second half of the season once he gets in game shape.  I think Brace will cut into Ellis's time when he comes back.  I do not see Wright being here once Brace is back.  The defense should start coming together in the next couple of weeks as players get healthy and spend time together.  Chung, Mccourdy and Ras I will start to get their communication down.  The DL will get quicker and better.  Spikes will anchor the middle and the rest of the players will find their role. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    I hope Brace will be ready and can help. I am worried about the snap counts for Wilfork, Love and Carter who seemed to be playing a bunch. We caught a break sunday with the Jets only running 50 offensive plays...but we need help soon!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from GadisRKO. Show GadisRKO's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    Mayo just needs time to get acclimated to the position. You don't play one position for 3 years straight and then all of a sudden switch positions and dominate right off the bat.

    That is not how things work.

    He will have to learn when to rush, when to free lance and when to cover. What I saw out there was a Jerod Mayo that was thinking rather then reading and reacting, which slowed him down. Once he fully understands what he can/cannot do in certain situations, he will be one of the better WLB's in the NFL.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??


    I don't think so. He has looked as good as before to me.

    I think Guyton looks a lot better playing now than he did in the 34 though. 

    And technically, NE is most frequently in a 43 under alignment ... so Mayo has still been "between the tackles" more often than not.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    In Response to Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??:
    Spikes needs to quit celebrating when he tackles a running back 5 years downfield.  When Mayo comes back, he will be slow and timid for a few games.  Haynesworth will be a good pickup in the second half of the season once he gets in game shape.  I think Brace will cut into Ellis's time when he comes back.  I do not see Wright being here once Brace is back.  The defense should start coming together in the next couple of weeks as players get healthy and spend time together.  Chung, Mccourdy and Ras I will start to get their communication down.  The DL will get quicker and better.  Spikes will anchor the middle and the rest of the players will find their role. 
    Posted by msteven



    Brandon Spikes should have been compared to Junior Seau whe he came out...
    He hits the whole FAST by making pre snap reads and guesses...
    He understands play development and uses his intincts to jump into the backfield and make plays for loss.

    He's also a pile jumper and he selebrates just like Seau
    Every team has a guy like this

    I personally like the enthusiam
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Is this new 4-3 Scheme hurting the development of Mayo??

    I agree. I like his attitude and say what you want about him, but when he got back in the lineup he injected a much needed toughness.  I dont care if you say he is making the tackle 5-10 yards down the field but I know when he does arrive, he brings the wood.  Reminds me a little of Rey Mauluga in Cincy, but with less range, but he is def. a needed presence..
     
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