Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    The way I see it, we have 3 FAs who will require "Big $$$ Contracts,"  Talib, Welker, and Vollmer. However, by the time they resign a few of their lower-contract guys and maybe sign a few other mid-level FAs they may only be able to afford to sign 2 of the "Big $$$ Contracts."  The other guys (Woody, Arrington, etc) will most likely only be back on team-friendly deals.  Of the "Big 3", I think that Talib is the most likely to be back.  He was a huge part of our secondary's improvement last year, and although he will require a large contract, it won't be a devastating contract like Asomough, Revis, Mario Williams, etc.  If Talib is healthy and on board with the "Patriot Way,"  he will be well worth the money.  As for the other 2, I think that Vollmer will be back before Welker IF the team feels confident that his back is healthy enough to hold up for 3-4 more seasons.  This is a big if, since his back issues have been a constant concern for the past couple of years.  If NE isn't confident enough in Vollmer's back to offer him a 3-4 year deal, then I could see them letting Vollmer walk and resigning Welker.  Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    I think the market for Talib is around 3/$24 with $15-$18 guaranteed.

    Would signing Talib to 1/$10 (franchise tender) be a better move?

    Still room to sign Vollmer, Edelman and a speedy WR. I think Wes is a goner unless he does something extremely team friendly and very back ended.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    I think the market for Talib is around 3/$24 with $15-$18 guaranteed.

    Would signing Talib to 1/$10 (franchise tender) be a better move?

    Still room to sign Vollmer, Edelman and a speedy WR. I think Wes is a goner unless he does something extremely team friendly and very back ended.



    Given these 2 options for Talib, I'd go with the 3 year deal.  The guy is basically a Top 10 CB in the NFL when healthy, so I think that 3/$24 would be a bargin when you compare it to some of the other top CB contracts.  I'm starting to agree that it isn't looking good for Wes to be back unless he is willing to leave some money on the table in order to play with Brady for the next 2-3 years.  I'm sure that there will be teams out there who will be willing to pay him more than we will, but maybe he'll value Brady and the organization enough to sacrifice some $$$ and stay.  Vollmer is likely to be back, unless his back issues are worse than we know...

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    Wow!  I liked what Talib brought to the team as well but I'm surprised his market value would be that high.  If so, I'm not sure the Pats would want to offer that much.

    I, too, believe that Vollmer will be back but will be surprised if Wes is.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    Personally I wouldn't sign Vollmer, don't get me wrong he's a good player, but I think we've shown that we have a line coach that can plug in all sorts of different guys to play. We need to put all of our resources into our defense, we can't go dumping 40 million into a right tackle when right tackles are available in the mid to late rounds...this is not a left tackle we are talking about here. We already spent huge on a guard a couple of years ago - we can't do the same for anything on our offensive line except if we're talking about a left tackle.

    We signed both of our tight ends to the tune of 80-90 million for them both. Brady makes close to 20 million a year. Mankins has a 40 million dollar contract he is in the middle of. Welker got 10 million last year. Spend it on the defense - I'm tired of watching average quarterbacks stand back there without a worry in the world that we will hit them. I'm tired of watching some of the worst passing attacks in the NFL look like world beaters against us. Hell I wouldn't even resign Welker at this point...go for something cheaper and spend the rest on defense.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    I think the market for Talib is around 3/$24 with $15-$18 guaranteed.

    Would signing Talib to 1/$10 (franchise tender) be a better move?

    Still room to sign Vollmer, Edelman and a speedy WR. I think Wes is a goner unless he does something extremely team friendly and very back ended.



    Where do you come up with these numbers? Very rarely will you see a situation where 75% of the contract is guaranteed...let alone for a player who has an off field/injury history

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    I think the market for Talib is around 3/$24 with $15-$18 guaranteed.

    Would signing Talib to 1/$10 (franchise tender) be a better move?

    Still room to sign Vollmer, Edelman and a speedy WR. I think Wes is a goner unless he does something extremely team friendly and very back ended.

     



    Where do you come up with these numbers? Very rarely will you see a situation where 75% of the contract is guaranteed...let alone for a player who has an off field/injury history

     



    the figure of 1/$10 is the approx franchise tender for CB's this year...

    looking at the 2nd tier of CB's, which I think Talib is in that mix, $8m is a good figure...usually for a 5 year contract about 50% of the contract is guaranteed...using a 3 year, which I think Talib is young enough top accept, about 75% is correct....example, B Carr signed a $50m contract last year, of which $26 was guaranteed. I think Talib accepts a 3 year deal based on his age, off field reputation and his injury history

    same percentages for Wes if he signs a 3 year

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjoseph. Show nyjoseph's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    I'd offer WW the same franchise tag that he got this year.  No extended contract.  The Pats receiving corps, beyond the TEs is too unpredictable right now.

    Talib was their best secondary player when he was on the field.  I would not offer him top money because he has proven to be injury prone.

    I would make every effort to resign Vollmer, but I think the Pats need help in the O Line with a beast run blocker.  I do hope they draft someone for the O Line in later rounds.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to nyjoseph's comment:

    I'd offer WW the same franchise tag that he got this year.  No extended contract.  The Pats receiving corps, beyond the TEs is too unpredictable right now.

    Talib was their best secondary player when he was on the field.  I would not offer him top money because he has proven to be injury prone.

    I would make every effort to resign Vollmer, but I think the Pats need help in the O Line with a beast run blocker.  I do hope they draft someone for the O Line in later rounds.




    a 2nd franchise tag is worth 120% of the prev year salary, so Wes would be over $11 million next year. The Pats currently have approx $14million in cap space, with out renegotiating anyone (Mankins and Vince w/b the candidates) or cutting anyone (Fells, Gregory, Ghost?). There are not a lot of cap saving moves that the Pats have in their back pocket.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    I think Welker is allowed to test the market with a contract offer in hand around 3/21 with 10-14 guaranteed. I think someone might offer him 3/24 with about 15 guaranteed and then he will make his choice and I would guess he stays. I know his production is up there with the guys making 10+/year but I just don't see any other teams valuing him that high. And I think he would prefer playing with TB and retiring a Pat even if he is leaving some money on the table.

    Vollmer's back is an issue, but I think the Pats want him back. His back is going to be a concern for everyone so I don't see him getting offers at the top of the RT market even though his play is deserving. I could see a contract with heavy playing time bonuses that allow him to get most of that  top RT money if he can stay on the field. The interesting thing here is that non-rookie contract top ten RT average was $5M/yr for 4 years in 2012 - the drop out of rookies is because there were two LT rookie contracts in the top ten of current RTs i.e. failed LTs drafted before the rookie pay scale.

    I think with Talib the off field issues are going to depress his market value. I agree that talent wise he is in that second tier (though more toward the bottom of it), but he does not have the track record to command that. I would think he is more in the $6-7M range for 4 years with some incentivizing as well. He may prefer to cut the years and retest the market with a better track record.

    If the above is ballpark then the Pats could afford it. And I would be surprised if they go much beyond this. I think there are going to be some interesting FAs on the market and with the cap flat, some hard reality moments for players

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    People are still missing that the Patriots are $18M under the cap with something like 18 roster spots to fill. Even if they filled the 15 other spots with rookies at minimums ($405k each), that leaves about $12 for Vollmer, Talib & Welker next year. I do not see how they could sign all three without some restructuring of Brady ($21.8M cap number), Wilfork ($10.6M) and Mankins ($10M) contracts.

    The Patriots may technically have the 8th most cap space of any team, but they also have the fewest players under contract for 2013. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

    People are still missing that the Patriots are $18M under the cap with something like 18 roster spots to fill. Even if they filled the 15 other spots with rookies at minimums ($405k each), that leaves about $12 for Vollmer, Talib & Welker next year. I do not see how they could sign all three without some restructuring of Brady ($21.8M cap number), Wilfork ($10.6M) and Mankins ($10M) contracts.

    The Patriots may technically have the 8th most cap space of any team, but they also have the fewest players under contract for 2013. 



    The cap is based on the the top 51 players so there is some wiggle room, plus there is also management stuff done with extensions/contracts that shifts some of the expense forward to future years so the Pats have plenty of space to manage their FAs if they choose to resign them.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    Possibly plays a role, but the larger factor may be if cannon is ready to take over should vollmer price himself out. If vollmer's demands are reasonable the pats will sign. If they have to choose between vollmer, Wes, Talib and others, they may consider if cannon is ready, then look to bring in a lower priced guy in FA or draft.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    Possibly plays a role, but the larger factor may be if cannon is ready to take over should vollmer price himself out. If vollmer's demands are reasonable the pats will sign. If they have to choose between vollmer, Wes, Talib and others, they may consider if cannon is ready, then look to bring in a lower priced guy in FA or draft.



    Very true.  Cannon's development could be a big factor in the offseason free agency picture.  It would be much easier to let Vollmer go if they know they have a solid RT already in house.  I do hope Vollmer is able to resign, though...

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to mia76's comment:

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

     

    People are still missing that the Patriots are $18M under the cap with something like 18 roster spots to fill. Even if they filled the 15 other spots with rookies at minimums ($405k each), that leaves about $12 for Vollmer, Talib & Welker next year. I do not see how they could sign all three without some restructuring of Brady ($21.8M cap number), Wilfork ($10.6M) and Mankins ($10M) contracts.

    The Patriots may technically have the 8th most cap space of any team, but they also have the fewest players under contract for 2013. 

     



    The cap is based on the the top 51 players so there is some wiggle room, plus there is also management stuff done with extensions/contracts that shifts some of the expense forward to future years so the Pats have plenty of space to manage their FAs if they choose to resign them.

     



    I agree that there is always wiggle room, plus you have to think that Brady's cap number will be brought down some how, but the fact is that with only 33 guys under contract (before they signed the CFLers) $18.6M in cap room can only go so far. 

    To me the idea of Welker, Talib & Vollmer all being resigned is unrealistic. People want them to go get Ed Reed and a big WR as well on these boards. Cap room on means something realtive to the number of players signed. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

     

    People are still missing that the Patriots are $18M under the cap with something like 18 roster spots to fill. Even if they filled the 15 other spots with rookies at minimums ($405k each), that leaves about $12 for Vollmer, Talib & Welker next year. I do not see how they could sign all three without some restructuring of Brady ($21.8M cap number), Wilfork ($10.6M) and Mankins ($10M) contracts.

    The Patriots may technically have the 8th most cap space of any team, but they also have the fewest players under contract for 2013. 

     



    The cap is based on the the top 51 players so there is some wiggle room, plus there is also management stuff done with extensions/contracts that shifts some of the expense forward to future years so the Pats have plenty of space to manage their FAs if they choose to resign them.

     

     



    I agree that there is always wiggle room, plus you have to think that Brady's cap number will be brought down some how, but the fact is that with only 33 guys under contract (before they signed the CFLers) $18.6M in cap room can only go so far. 

     

    To me the idea of Welker, Talib & Vollmer all being resigned is unrealistic. People want them to go get Ed Reed and a big WR as well on these boards. Cap room on means something realtive to the number of players signed. 




    there is not a lot of wiggle room with Brady. he only has 2 years left on his deal. the wiggle with brady is an extesion, which most likely means 5 years at $100 mil plus, taking him to his 42 birthday. not an ideal situation.

    the other obvious wiggle is Mankins and Vince, both having gone thru contentious negotiations with the Pats. are they willing to renegotiate?

    the Pats actually have $14 mil in cap space, not $18, after the incentives reached clauses, the slots for rookies and the cfl signings. the $14 does not include holding back any $$ like they prefer to do.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from LittleTimmy31. Show LittleTimmy31's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    To me, a guy that makes $78K/ year, all these numbers that are being thrown around is still shocking! These guys gross more in 1 year than my wife and I could ever make combined in a lifetime! 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to LittleTimmy31's comment:

    To me, a guy that makes $78K/ year, all these numbers that are being thrown around is still shocking! These guys gross more in 1 year than my wife and I could ever make combined in a lifetime! 



    agreed. but on the other hand 70,000 people arent jamming into Gillette to watch you and your wife

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

     

    People are still missing that the Patriots are $18M under the cap with something like 18 roster spots to fill. Even if they filled the 15 other spots with rookies at minimums ($405k each), that leaves about $12 for Vollmer, Talib & Welker next year. I do not see how they could sign all three without some restructuring of Brady ($21.8M cap number), Wilfork ($10.6M) and Mankins ($10M) contracts.

    The Patriots may technically have the 8th most cap space of any team, but they also have the fewest players under contract for 2013. 

     



    The cap is based on the the top 51 players so there is some wiggle room, plus there is also management stuff done with extensions/contracts that shifts some of the expense forward to future years so the Pats have plenty of space to manage their FAs if they choose to resign them.

     

     



    I agree that there is always wiggle room, plus you have to think that Brady's cap number will be brought down some how, but the fact is that with only 33 guys under contract (before they signed the CFLers) $18.6M in cap room can only go so far. 

     

    To me the idea of Welker, Talib & Vollmer all being resigned is unrealistic. People want them to go get Ed Reed and a big WR as well on these boards. Cap room on means something realtive to the number of players signed. 




    I agree.  That was kind of the point of this post, I think they will end up having to choose 2 of the 3 if they want to be at all active in bringing in any other free agents this off-season.  I think they will keep Talib & a reasonably healthy Vollmer.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    Extend Vollmer, its better to have Cannon there as a back up.  Try to sign Talib and fill the rest of the roster via the draft and low priced vet free agents.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from WazzuWheatfarmer. Show WazzuWheatfarmer's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    That's pretty much how I think they should address things.  I love Wes, but I think it would be a mistake to sign him over the best RT in the league.  NFL games are won/lost in the trenches...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    I agree that Cannon, provided he's ready, is good insurance if Vollmer wants more than the going BB price.  The rest of the salary cap machinations I will leave to the professionals since it appears that many NFL teams who are run by professionals still have problems with it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Is Vollmer's back the key to Welker's future in NE?

    When I look at cap numbers it is always surprising how teams manage it. A team like the Jets is 20+M over the cap and yet by the time the league year begins they will have made that disappear and surprisingly have a little pocket change to pursue FAs. So ... with the ability to back load contracts by putting guaranteed money into signing bonuses, the three big money FAs we are talking about could come in well below $10M. And the Pats have about 4.5M in dead cap for 2013 so as long as they spend wisely that rolls back to them after this year - of that 4M are from Chad85 and Fanene.

    And the cap estimates are all based on the top 51 players on contract or futures contract so saying that there are only 33 players on contract is just wrong. Not sure what the current 'roster' number is, but it is over 51. Players like Spencer Larsen (anyone remember him?)have 2013 contracts and if he is cut that frees up $750K as just one example. Great site for AFC east cap analysis:

    http://www.nyjetscap.com/Patriots/patriots2013.php

     
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