Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

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    Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    i just watched Jermaine Wiggins go over Seattles final TD pass and i have a few things to say on it. First of all I watched the play in a bar and was in no mood to watch ESPN highlights later and i have not seen the play since then (once was enough). It is clear now though that I owe an apology to Nate Ebner. Apparently he played his coverage perfectly on this play and was unlucky  that Tavon Wilson was so bad on the play that Ebner had the misfortune to be seen chasing Sidney Rice into the endzone on TV as if he was part of the monumental screw up. Ten guys do their job, one screws up mightily (Wilson) and everyone else looks like a complete bum. Sorry Nate.  

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2012/10/inside_the_play_36.html

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    ccnsd, I watched the film of that play last night.  Ebner was actually covering the half of the field (right side from the defense's perspective) away from Rice and was making a valiant effort to get over and help out the left side of the secondary. He deserves no blame on that play.  On the left side, you had two breakdowns.  First, McCourty tries to chuck Rice five yards down the field and makes weak contact.  The awkward looking chuck doesn't slow Rice at all, but in trying to hit Rice, McCourty gets himself twisted and out of position, so Rice just blows by him.  McCourty then seems to give up on the play, not making a strong effort to catch back up (it almost looks like he's settling into an underneath zone, but there's no receiver anywhere near him).  Wilson meanwhile runs toward Rice but slightly overruns the play taking one too many steps toward the sideline.  Rice then cuts inward leaving Wilson completely out of position and is able to blow by Wilson leaving Rice wide open with no one over the top.  The coverage failures were on McCourty and Wilson on that play. Ebner and the other corner (Dennard?  Couldn't see number on film) were actually in good position for their half of the field. 

    Update.  Just looked at the Wiggins' tape.  Wiggins seems to be a bit less critical of McCourty, implying that he was supposed to stay underneath the play (kind of bracketing Rice with Wilson over the top and McCourty underneath). This may very well be the case, but personally, I think McCourty was giving way too much space to Rice. Coverage was so loose I don't see how McCourty could have made a play on the ball. 

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    Thanks for posting the breakdown.  Interesting that Ebner certainly appeared the goat on the play without any analysis.  Another example of how, without really knowing what the D was supposed to be doing, a fan can totally misread what happened.

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    ccnsd, I watched the film of that play last night.  Ebner was actually covering the half of the field (right side from the defense's perspective) away from Rice and was making a valiant effort to get over and help out the left side of the secondary. He deserves no blame on that play.  On the left side, you had two breakdowns.  First, McCourty tries to chuck Rice five yards down the field and makes weak contact.  The awkward looking chuck doesn't slow Rice at all, but in trying to hit Rice, McCourty gets himself twisted and out of position, so Rice just blows by him.  McCourty then seems to give up on the play, not making a strong effort to catch back up (it almost looks like he's settling into an underneath zone, but there's no receiver anywhere near him).  Wilson meanwhile runs toward Rice but slightly overruns the play taking one too many steps toward the sideline.  Rice then cuts inward leaving Wilson completely out of position and is able to blow by Wilson leaving Rice wide open with no one over the top.  The coverage failures were on McCourty and Wilson on that play. Ebner and the other corner (Dennard?  Couldn't see number on film) were actually in good position for their half of the field. 

    Update.  Just looked at the Wiggins' tape.  Wiggins seems to be a bit less critical of McCourty, implying that he was supposed to stay underneath the play (kind of bracketing Rice with Wilson over the top and McCourty underneath). This may very well be the case, but personally, I think McCourty was giving way too much space to Rice. Coverage was so loose I don't see how McCourty could have made a play on the ball. 




    couple of things Pro that Wiggens was right in about McCourty.

    First - you were right McCourty should have either been up jamming the line or set back covering the deep route. That 5yds back with a elbow check is idiotic but all the CB's were doing that all game so I put that on the coaching not on McCourty.

    Second - in the cover 2 the 2 S's have the deep coverage with the WR's having the underneath coverage. This is intentionally because at that point in the game the last things you want to do is give up a dump pass where the guy has all day to run or give up the sidelines so they can step out. Ideally in a cover 2 you want to make the deep outs make a choice, do they run the inside post where you could have 2 S's coverging and the CB behind to undercut the ball if underthrown or do they make an awkward 45 degree turn to the sides lines making it practicully impossible to see a pass coming over your should and forcing the QB to be perfect with the throw. As such McCourty's job was the take away the outside lane forcing the WR inside initially but also stay within 10-15 yds of the line to prevent a dump off on the flat. This limits any dump offs to the middle of the field where coverage should be able to get to them for a short gain while keeping the clock going. McCourty did his job there

    Third - Because McCourty saw that Wilson had taken the worst possible angle, giving up the middle of the field, McCourty looks late to the party trailing behind Rice. If Wilson stood his ground and forced Rice to make the choice McCourty was in good position to take away the underneath on both the outside and inside. Since there should have been coverage over top Wilson's only options would have been to make a perfect pass or slightly under throw it under coverage (if he didn't notice McCourty). With McCourty playing the under route there is a good shot WIlson wouldn't have even noticed him and most likely would have made Rice try to come back to the ball. If he did McCourty would have had an easy PD or even a chance at an int

    Really it was Wilson who messed this up and he messed it up big time. Wilson has potential but this play also shows how much work he needs and why people were scratching their heads when BB took him in the second

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    I agree Eng that McCourty was in okay position until just before the ball was released (despite the lame chuck).  The part I'm not so sure about is once Rice cuts toward the middle of the field, McCourty is so committed to the outside route that he's way out of position to defend the pass to the inside route.  Maybe he's relying on Wilson to cover that inside route with some back up by Ebner, but it seems like McCourty was in no position to help once Rice went inside. 

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    In response to patsfan76's comment:

    Pro, MCourty is only supposed to jam the guy and make it seem like man for a second and then release him to a safety. It was a cover 2 zone. In man he would stay with the guy so I dont thnk McCourty messed up that bad on the play outside of getting a weak jam but what else is new. Bottom line, If I am coaching, I would never call a cover 2 zone defense at the end of the game with 2 rookie safeties trying to protect a lead. That was just a dumb placall knowing your personell and the situation.

     

    Bill said they had been running out the look and so I think the playaction caught them with their pants down, but once again, If I am coach, I am not expecting a run in that situation with them needing a TD.

     

    Outthinking themselves as usal



    I think you're right, patsfan.  The only thing that I don't like about McCourty's play is that he seems to continue toward the sideline well after Rice has made his break inside.  It seems like once it becomes clear that Rice is headed to the middle, McCourty's got to adjust to give himself a chance of helping out on the play.  Wilson is far more at fault for letting Rice get past him and to his inside, but McCourty (who I generally like) doesn't seem to react aggressively as the play breaks down.  Contrast this with Ebner who does adjust fast, even if he can't get over in time to help Wilson. 

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    In response to Mighty2013's comment:

    Posted by Robert Burgess 

    No way I'm reading that

     




    lol

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    McCourty's entire job was to take away the sidelines except the portion where the ball would have to come directly over his head making it a near impossible catch. If Rice had put a double move on and McCourty went inside Rice would have an open outside lane with a clear view over his shoulder, as McCourty would have been turned around at that point. When Rice came inward you are suppose to have both Ebner and Wilson standing their ground and cheating inside. This would have been double coverage at that point with a trailer in McCourty if Wilson tried to underthrow and force Rice to come back. If you saw the otherside of the field Dennard did the same thing taking away the outside and force the WR to Ebner. Ebner stood his ground and was back pedaling at that point waiting for his WR to make the first move (exactly how it should be done). However since Wilson bought Rices double move and took the angle (S's should never been moving forward on an angle unless the balls in the air) it forced Ebner to turn and try his best to assist. The result on TV made it look like Ebner and McCourty were both beaten and out of position with Wilson being the closest but in reality nether Ebner nor McCourty should have been in sight as each have assignments away from where the ball went

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    why the quote redundancies, isn't once enough?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    ccnsd, I watched the film of that play last night.  Ebner was actually covering the half of the field (right side from the defense's perspective) away from Rice and was making a valiant effort to get over and help out the left side of the secondary. He deserves no blame on that play.  On the left side, you had two breakdowns.  First, McCourty tries to chuck Rice five yards down the field and makes weak contact.  The awkward looking chuck doesn't slow Rice at all, but in trying to hit Rice, McCourty gets himself twisted and out of position, so Rice just blows by him.  McCourty then seems to give up on the play, not making a strong effort to catch back up (it almost looks like he's settling into an underneath zone, but there's no receiver anywhere near him).  Wilson meanwhile runs toward Rice but slightly overruns the play taking one too many steps toward the sideline.  Rice then cuts inward leaving Wilson completely out of position and is able to blow by Wilson leaving Rice wide open with no one over the top.  The coverage failures were on McCourty and Wilson on that play. Ebner and the other corner (Dennard?  Couldn't see number on film) were actually in good position for their half of the field. 

    Update.  Just looked at the Wiggins' tape.  Wiggins seems to be a bit less critical of McCourty, implying that he was supposed to stay underneath the play (kind of bracketing Rice with Wilson over the top and McCourty underneath). This may very well be the case, but personally, I think McCourty was giving way too much space to Rice. Coverage was so loose I don't see how McCourty could have made a play on the ball. 



    "McCourty tries to chuck Rice five yards down the field and makes weak contact.  The awkward looking chuck doesn't slow Rice at all, but in trying to hit Rice, McCourty gets himself twisted and out of position, so Rice just blows by him."

    a recurring event. awful

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    ccnsd, I watched the film of that play last night.  Ebner was actually covering the half of the field (right side from the defense's perspective) away from Rice and was making a valiant effort to get over and help out the left side of the secondary. He deserves no blame on that play.  On the left side, you had two breakdowns.  First, McCourty tries to chuck Rice five yards down the field and makes weak contact.  The awkward looking chuck doesn't slow Rice at all, but in trying to hit Rice, McCourty gets himself twisted and out of position, so Rice just blows by him.  McCourty then seems to give up on the play, not making a strong effort to catch back up (it almost looks like he's settling into an underneath zone, but there's no receiver anywhere near him).  Wilson meanwhile runs toward Rice but slightly overruns the play taking one too many steps toward the sideline.  Rice then cuts inward leaving Wilson completely out of position and is able to blow by Wilson leaving Rice wide open with no one over the top.  The coverage failures were on McCourty and Wilson on that play. Ebner and the other corner (Dennard?  Couldn't see number on film) were actually in good position for their half of the field. 

    Update.  Just looked at the Wiggins' tape.  Wiggins seems to be a bit less critical of McCourty, implying that he was supposed to stay underneath the play (kind of bracketing Rice with Wilson over the top and McCourty underneath). This may very well be the case, but personally, I think McCourty was giving way too much space to Rice. Coverage was so loose I don't see how McCourty could have made a play on the ball. 



    "Rice then cuts inward leaving Wilson completely out of position and is able to blow by Wilson leaving Rice wide open with no one over the to"

    big 10 followers have seen enough of this to stay awat from wilson.

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    In response to patsfan76's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to patsfan76's comment:

    Pro, MCourty is only supposed to jam the guy and make it seem like man for a second and then release him to a safety. It was a cover 2 zone. In man he would stay with the guy so I dont thnk McCourty messed up that bad on the play outside of getting a weak jam but what else is new. Bottom line, If I am coaching, I would never call a cover 2 zone defense at the end of the game with 2 rookie safeties trying to protect a lead. That was just a dumb placall knowing your personell and the situation.

     

    Bill said they had been running out the look and so I think the playaction caught them with their pants down, but once again, If I am coach, I am not expecting a run in that situation with them needing a TD.

     

    Outthinking themselves as usal



    I think you're right, patsfan.  The only thing that I don't like about McCourty's play is that he seems to continue toward the sideline well after Rice has made his break inside.  It seems like once it becomes clear that Rice is headed to the middle, McCourty's got to adjust to give himself a chance of helping out on the play.  Wilson is far more at fault for letting Rice get past him and to his inside, but McCourty (who I generally like) doesn't seem to react aggressively as the play breaks down.  Contrast this with Ebner who does adjust fast, even if he can't get over in time to help Wilson. 




     

    McCourty is only good when he is able to get a jam and then stay on the guys hip and then react. Too many times he gets close, doesnt jam and gets beat right off the line and is trailing the WR n running full speed and you cant make a good play running full speed playing catch up. The idea is to hit them, reroute and while they are stumbling you get back in their hip and run stride for stride. # 32 doesnt jam but gets too close and has to recover and thats bad technique that has shown up for 2 years now...



    thank you for saying......

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    All our Safeties, except Ebner, have Marryweather Syndrome.  That's when the Brain consists mainly of Silly String instead of Gray Matter.

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    I was a bit surprised people were blaming Ebner on that play - the replay showed Wilson getting beat. It looked like that was a tough matchup for Wilson (Rice is big and can run), but he was far enough back that he should of been able to keep the guy from getting behind him. It looked like Rice made a move right towards Wilson and Wilson's legs/brain just went dead for a second (long enough for a guy to blow past him).

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    "ccnsd, I watched the film of that play last night.  Ebner was actually covering the half of the field (right side from the defense's perspective) away from Rice and was making a valiant effort to get over and help out the left side of the secondary. He deserves no blame on that play.  On the left side, you had two breakdowns.  First, McCourty tries to chuck Rice five yards down the field and makes weak contact.  The awkward looking chuck doesn't slow Rice at all, but in trying to hit Rice, McCourty gets himself twisted and out of position, so Rice just blows by him.  McCourty then seems to give up on the play, not making a strong effort to catch back up (it almost looks like he's settling into an underneath zone, but there's no receiver anywhere near him).  Wilson meanwhile runs toward Rice but slightly overruns the play taking one too many steps toward the sideline.  Rice then cuts inward leaving Wilson completely out of position and is able to blow by Wilson leaving Rice wide open with no one over the top.  The coverage failures were on McCourty and Wilson on that play. Ebner and the other corner (Dennard?  Couldn't see number on film) were actually in good position for their half of the field. 

    Update.  Just looked at the Wiggins' tape.  Wiggins seems to be a bit less critical of McCourty, implying that he was supposed to stay underneath the play (kind of bracketing Rice with Wilson over the top and McCourty underneath). This may very well be the case, but personally, I think McCourty was giving way too much space to Rice. Coverage was so loose I don't see how McCourty could have made a play on the ball."

    Prolate~

    Watch the tape yet again...and when you get it wrong, watch it 1 more time-  DMC is covering the topmost WR...  For the longest time, I had to slo-mo, b/c I can't understand what's going on w/ DMC trailing in the endzone.  It was only upon freezing that (very quick btw) cam angle following the ball in high mid-air, that I could see DMC's coverage assignment, that Seattle receiver, stopped dead at about the 5-7 yard line (thought it was a ref too, at first- it ain't)...  DMC had broken off this man...HIS man, in order to at least try to get to a place in time of where he saw the ball-headed to hopefully be there in time enough to help out somehow (sooooo...not quite sure, that we can fault him for attempting to go above and beyond his job in order to give an all-out effort just to make it to the play's inevitable direction to even maybe be near enough in time to help). 

    We probably can though-  ya know, blame him...should, actually.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    O.k.- Really...REALLY BIG problem with this:

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2012/10/inside_the_play_36.html

    Am I thinking of some different game-winning Seattle TD here?!?!  PLEASE!!!  Someone with a fair-mind, and a DVR'ed Seattle-Pats Game (just erased mine)-  I watched over and over, and I SWEAR that first:  Seattle's O set-up had not 1...but 2(!)  WRs split out from the topmost far-side...FROM THE START (this much should be apparent, If I'm wrong, I'm wrong).  BUT, IF THIS is true...then bedard's standard "lay every ounce of blame on Devin McCourty" is his standard b#ll from the get-go (terrifyingly so, given that he's setting the diagram up inaccurately from the start). 

    Here's the harder part:  DMC's on the top guy, and THIS- IS NOT, the guy whom catches the Seattle TD...it ain't (It's the 2nd WR from the top side of the LOS gowing down...and it doesn't at 1st look like he'd BE the 1, but this solely because DMC's wideout at the topmost, starts his route tree breaking REALLY hard).  Ya gotta rewind and freeze, and catch that quick high cam pan following the high track of the pass, in order to see that DMC has SHED off his man (seattle dark green on the high sideline, not the greatest eyesight pillar to see-HE stops Dead...right on the cusp of the sideline- <see the 4-8 yard line mark>). 

    WATCH IT AGAIN...  Trust me here.

    Wow...wow, wow, w-o-w.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    Who blamed McCourty on the tape? Wiggins clearly lays the blame on Wilson. McCourty is barely mentioned. Is there some vast anti McCourty conspiricay that I am unaware of and Wiggins is in on it.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    It's on youtube it is easy to look at it from the sky. There is one reciever and you are clearly looking at a Ref on the 8 yard line.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lxH3Ul0zKQ

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    It's on youtube it is easy to look at it from the sky. There is one reciever and you are clearly looking at a Ref on the 8 yard line.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lxH3Ul0zKQ

     

    I'm wrong, but I'm wrong on the TD...  TD I was incorrectly referncing was the 1 w/ 3 Pats in the endzone, w/ McCourty actually being IN the endzone as the last trailing guy (3 NE Patriots were there, w/ DMC breaking off his man- 2nd to last Seattle TD then???).  In this 1, DMC has let him go before dropping into zone (I presume-NE btw, has been doing this A TON...CB coverage before handing the deepest assignment off to the Safety, while the CB drops into a soft long sideline bubble zone...and btw, they ain't doin' this successfully in the least bit). 

    Different TD though...my bad. 

     

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    I don't even know...wasn't the 2nd to last TD either, sooo??????  WhyInTH does that youtube vid look so different from the 1 that I was watching again from that replay with the Coaches film/angles last night?!?!  What is goin' on here?  Must be losin' it (which I really don't care, seein' as that this ain't a newsflash...but it's the insanely objective unblinking open eye that I care about missing). 

    Ooops, yup- never mind, I forgot...  I blinded it with an awl just to spite babe...ehh, ya reap what ya sow.  If you're gonna blind yourself in an eye just to make a point, I'm guessin' now (really wish someone would've informed on this earlier)- that this just might detrimentally affect your vision.  Go figure.

     

     

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    Thanks for sharing Wiggens analysis. Like you I havent wanted to see it again. It's nice to hear that Ebner was doing his job, the media doesn't say anything  about him but it sounds like he's doing his job.

    I haven't turned on ESPN since last Saturday and don't plan on it until after the Pat's crush the jets.

     
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    Re: Jermaine Wiggins on Seattle's final TD

    In response to ccnsd's comment:

    Who blamed McCourty on the tape? Wiggins clearly lays the blame on Wilson. McCourty is barely mentioned. Is there some vast anti McCourty conspiricay that I am unaware of and Wiggins is in on it.



    ccnsd . . . it was me who thought McCourty should have done more to come back inside and get trailing coverage on Rice.  Eng and patsfan have made good arguments that he was basically responsible for the possible outside route (or a dump off to an outlet receiver in the flat below him) and so his position was good.  I'm not a DB coach and have never played DB, so I'm by no means an expert, but the one thing that strikes me as just a tad weak in McCourty's coverage is that he continued moving toward the sideline after Rice had made his double move and clearly was headed to the middle post.  While McCourty needs to keep his outside position, I would have expected him in that situation to also try to stay in reasonable contact with the likely receiver so he could help the safety.  Maybe I'm wrong about his duties, but that's where I was slightly critical about his play.  He seems to keep drifting toward the sideline when everything is headed inside. At the time the ball is released he's about 12 yards away from Rice and (while it's hard to see exactly when the ball is released) it appears that the separation only increases after the throw. If you watch the film, you can see Ebner reacts to the throw a fraction of a second earlier than McCourty does.    

    I think we're all in agreement that the primary breakdown was Wilson's, and Ebner deserves no blame on this play at all.  

     
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