Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dead54. Show Dead54's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    One thing I find funny about the whole McDaniels situation, is that when quickly reading through the posts, McDaniels' name always appears to read as McDenials to me, (especially when it is mispelled) and that seems ironic to me, given that he continuously denied his secrets and whatnot that he kept from Cutler.

    Anyway, I think the trade was good for both sides, although Chicago massively overpaid. The only mistake McDaniels made was trading one of the future first rounders for 5'9'' Alphonso Smith (a.k.a. young Ellis Hobbs). Well, if he doesn't satisfy Brandon Marshall that's bad too. But I think that is the fault of the Front Office, not his.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    I really don't care much what McDaniels did or does in Denver, because I'm not a fan of that team. I watched the situation with interest because 1) McDaniels was very recently an important piece of the Patriots and 2) my brother is a Bronco's fan. But what Denver does or doesn't do doesn't matter to me.
    I just find it funny that so many people think that Cutler will be great and Orton will not. While it is entirely possible that that could be true, there is very little (if any) evidence to support that. In fact, I'd argue (and did a few posts back) that the evidence supports the opposite.
    I think Cutler is way overrated (even in college), mostly because he isn't close to being mature enough to be anything more than a slightly-above-average quarterback (and he should never have made the Pro Bowl--what a joke!). Now he'll be playing in the absolute worst situation any quarterback could find themselves in (even worse than playing in Oakland). Somehow he's going to come out of that situation as a great quarterback? No way! He'll be lucky to find a starting job somewhere in the NFL.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dead54. Show Dead54's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    Now he'll be playing in the absolute worst situation any quarterback could find themselves in (even worse than playing in Oakland). Somehow he's going to come out of that situation as a great quarterback? No way! He'll be lucky to find a starting job somewhere in the NFL.
    Posted by Ritchie_az


    Chicago is definately not the WORST place for a QB. The WORST would be no job at all, no money coming in. Sorry, but the worst situation for a QB in the NFL is Oakland. Bad line, bad receivers, and a crazy owner. Besides, with the price Chicago paid for him, no matter how bad he is, Cutler will be in Chicago for AWHILE.... If Grossman started as long as HE did.........
     
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    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    Oakland is bad, but Chicago has been a QB graveyard for about 40 years. Soldier's Field (The Mistake by the Lake) in the winter is almost impossible to throw in. 
    Add to that Chicago's horrible receiving corps (the worst of all time?), poor offensive line, below-average defense and running game (look at the stats), AND the expectations that everyone has thrown onto Cutler's shoulders, and you do have the worst situation a QB could be in. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dead54. Show Dead54's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    Oakland is bad, but Chicago has been a QB graveyard for about 40 years. Soldier's Field (The Mistake by the Lake) in the winter is almost impossible to throw in.  Add to that Chicago's horrible receiving corps (the worst of all time?), poor offensive line, below-average defense and running game (look at the stats), AND the expectations that everyone has thrown onto Cutler's shoulders, and you do have the worst situation a QB could be in. 
    Posted by Ritchie_az


    Their receivers are probably not the worst of ALL TIME. Their offensive line is average, so not that bad. Defense is bad, especially after letting Brown go. The running game isn't horrendous, either. Forte should do better with a year of experience and a strong armed QB. The expectations, yes, they are the worst part about the Chicago team. He will never live up to them, but he will still perform better in Chicago than Oakland. Plus, the same expectations would be on him if he was in Oakland instead of Chicago, anyway.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    He's not in Oakland and you could never know where he'd do better or worse. That was never my point. My point was that he acted like a Prima Donna and got what he deserved: himself into a really bad situation. Other than the unemployed or those from Illinois, I doubt any QB wants to play in Chicago. There's the previously mentioned team and stadium issues, and, for Cutler, the expectations (which you put well saying, "he will never live up to them") are so huge Tom Brady might not be able to live up to them if it were him instead. For example, Peter King said the Bears are going to be the fourth best team because they added Cutler. Wow! There's going to be a huge deflation when Cutler doesn't do well. And he won't do well. Who's going to catch his passes? What happens when the fridged, swirling winds start blowing 40 knots? What will happen when the offense line constantly alows defenders to get by? It won't matter how strong an arm he has, which is the only thing he has going for him. And when things aren't going well, he's not going to have the character to trudge through it. He's going to turn on his team. It will be very ugly, but he brought it all on himself.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    ...AND Kyle Orton will surprise quite a few people.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Belenus555. Show Belenus555's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    underdogg:


    You may be right in that both Josh Mac and Cutler were at fault in the chain of events that led to the latter's departure (via trade to Chicago).


    However, playing devil's advocate here, has it occurred to anyone here that having learned at the feet of a Machiavellian such as BB - Josh Mac was simply applying one of the Florentine writer's cardinal rules espoused in 'The Prince': when taking over a principality or a republic....you must gradually eliminate every vestige of the previous regime that is/would be either threatening, expensive, or useless to the proper administration of your regime [yes, I am paraphrasing from memory]. Under such a dictum, Cutler would have been seen by JMc as a actual/ potential locker room cancer that at best would have undermined his rule or at worst - ultimately turn the players on each other (note: this from my speculation on how JMac would see it).


    If that is the case, and we may never really know, then Kyle Orton would serve Denver as a good stop-gap QB while JMac looks down the road (should he stay around long enough) to get the players that he really wants on the team - particularly, the QB.


    What say you?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    Cassel is fine Bub, but you guys want to provide him hero status, and I am telling you he is not worthy of it.  to my claims that Manning is not responsible for the colts failures, I am always told that I am full of it.  so all I am doing is applying the same logic to Cassel that pats fans have applied to Manning including the fact that poor defenses or injuries are no excuse.  I may be acting obtuse, but it is nothing less than I receive when defending my side. 
    Posted by underdogg


    So what you're telling me is that since others are doing it to you, you respond in like kind? If  so, then you are sinking to their level. I may make a few snide remarks, but I try to post what I believe, whether it agrees with the rest of the forum or not. I save the truly obnoxious and insulting posts for trolls like Leon, Togah, whatever. And truth be told, football is a team sport...moreso than any other...and no one player can be blamed for their failures (or credited for their successes) 99% of the time. That being said, I still stick to my statement that Cassel did better last December than Manning has ever done in January, even in the Super Bowl year. Nor am I claiming Cassel to be any kind of "hero" or even "superstar". But he is (IMO) a good QB who is arguably as good or better than half the starters in the league. Whether he'll have success in KC or not is only speculation, as his new team is not that good. But to say the only reason he had success in Foxboro was due to his supporting cast is not totally accurate. Sure, it helped him out having guys like Moss and Welker, but I'm sure there are other QBs who would have done a lot worse in the same situation.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    McDaniels is a liar (imo), and Cutler called him on it.  sure cutlers antics were childish, but now he's got a new chance to prove himself without having to look over his shoulder wondering what conniving tricks his coach may be trying to pull. 
    Posted by underdogg


    Please tell us exactly why Josh is a "liar". I never heard him say that he had no intention whatsoever of bringing in another QB if one should become available. And if other teams came calling with trade offers, why should he refuse to even listen? This is the NFL, and that is the nature of the business. Cutler graduated from Vandy, which means he has to have a little bit of intelligence. IMO he was so upset that his "daddy" Shanahan was gone he used this to finagle his way out of town...and into a fat contract before he risked lessening his value under McDaniels. And isn't the HC the "boss"? I know my boss doesn't explain everything that goes on at work, and that if he didn't like my job performance he could get rid of me in favor of someone else who he deemed would do a better job.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    If that is the case, and we may never really know, then Kyle Orton would serve Denver as a good stop-gap QB while JMac looks down the road (should he stay around long enough) to get the players that he really wants on the team - particularly, the QB.

    You make an astute point. I'm sure Josh knew Cutler would not be happy running the more disciplined, conservative type offense he plans to install. We saw what Cutler did over a simple rumor of them entertaining trade talks. If things went bad he may have acted similarly during the season, and that would be a locker room distraction (much like the saga in Dallas last season). And with the extra picks Josh received in the trade, it's possible he could be looking to trade up in the next draft, where quite a few top rated QBs will be declaring (i.e. Bradford, McCoy, etc.). Orton has experience, he plays smart, and it will take a couple years before the Boroncos' defense is shored up, anyway. Shanahan was there for a long time, so we know Bowlen isn't one to be too hasty. And he also seems to have Josh's back throughout all this, and even now with the Marshall situation. Perhaps McDaniels feels he has a few years to "rebuild" the team. And a lot of new HCs bring in new QBs, even when the existing one is a viable starter. IMO your guess is a pretty good one!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    "If that is the case, and we may never really know, then Kyle Orton would serve Denver as a good stop-gap QB while JMac looks down the road"
     
    Don't be surprised if Orton isn't a stop-gap. Josh may very well build the offense around this guy.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    How exactly is McDanials a liar? From everything I read he took a look at a trade for Cassel and when it didnt happen and Cutler was upset about it McDanials said that no one is above being traded and that they took a look at Cassel but that Cutler was still their man and Cutler couldnt handle being told no one was above being traded because he is a little b*tch. Even the greatest of all time Joe Montana was traded so no one is above being traded and he just had an ego bigger then the team. Nothing i read ever said McDanials lied about anything so where did you get this info and can you please give us a link?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    underdogg: You may be right in that both Josh Mac and Cutler were at fault in the chain of events that led to the latter's departure (via trade to Chicago). However, playing devil's advocate here, has it occurred to anyone here that having learned at the feet of a Machiavellian such as BB - Josh Mac was simply applying one of the Florentine writer's cardinal rules espoused in 'The Prince': when taking over a principality or a republic....you must gradually eliminate every vestige of the previous regime that is/would be either threatening, expensive, or useless to the proper administration of your regime [yes, I am paraphrasing from memory]. Under such a dictum, Cutler would have been seen by JMc as a actual/ potential locker room cancer that at best would have undermined his rule or at worst - ultimately turn the players on each other (note: this from my speculation on how JMac would see it). If that is the case, and we may never really know, then Kyle Orton would serve Denver as a good stop-gap QB while JMac looks down the road (should he stay around long enough) to get the players that he really wants on the team - particularly, the QB. What say you?
    Posted by Belenus555


    B - I think this assessment has validity.  It seems I read something about almost exactly this and the interesting thing was that what J Mac did is very much like what bb did in clev (getting rid of Kosar), which to some extent backfired on bb and got him canned.  on the other hand, when bb got the pats job he did not rid the team of its current franchise Drew Bledsoe, but used bledsoe's injury as the launching point for Brady's career. 

    What good fortune BB had with Brady.  Most would like to call belichick a genius for this, but if any (including bb) had an inkling that brady would become one of the best qb's ever, he never ever would have lasted to the 6th round.  But I digress. 

    bb's softer/slower approach to making the NE team HIS team worked while his hard/immediate approach in cleveland failed.  If history is a guide, I think we will see J mac as a coordinator in a few years.  
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    So what you're telling me is that since others are doing it to you, you respond in like kind? If  so, then you are sinking to their level. I may make a few snide remarks, but I try to post what I believe, whether it agrees with the rest of the forum or not. I save the truly obnoxious and insulting posts for trolls like Leon, Togah, whatever. And truth be told, football is a team sport...moreso than any other...and no one player can be blamed for their failures (or credited for their successes) 99% of the time. That being said, I still stick to my statement that Cassel did better last December than Manning has ever done in January, even in the Super Bowl year. Nor am I claiming Cassel to be any kind of "hero" or even "superstar". But he is (IMO) a good QB who is arguably as good or better than half the starters in the league. Whether he'll have success in KC or not is only speculation, as his new team is not that good. But to say the only reason he had success in Foxboro was due to his supporting cast is not totally accurate. Sure, it helped him out having guys like Moss and Welker, but I'm sure there are other QBs who would have done a lot worse in the same situation.
    Posted by bubthegrub2


    Bub - for me it is too difficult to keep straight those who commenting from a reasonable perspective and those who are just making statements. 

    As for your comment cassel did better in dec than manning did in Jan, what are you trying to say?  If you say that then there is no differentiation between the playoffs and the regular season, and if that is the case then superbowl victories really don't matter, but overall victories do.  Additionally, it suggests then that manning's 3 mvp awards clearly define him as the best qb of this last decade.  I really don't think that is what you are saying, but if you are going to compare dec and jan as if they are the same then you have. 

    Your other comments are speculation which is fine.  I see it differently, and we really won't ever know.  Its the same as saying how would brady be on the colts and how would manning be on the pats. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    Belichicks benching of Kosar only backfired because Vinny Testivertie who replaced Kosar as teh starting QB got hurt. Before Vinny got hurt he was doing a much better job then Kosar and no one could deny the benching was a good move but then Vinny got hurt and the season was a bust. And McDanials did not want to have to trade Cutler the way he did, he took a look at Cassel and when it didnt happen he was more then happy with Cutler but Cutler was a baby about it and forced teh Bronco's owner to make the final call and trade him. McDanials tried to fix the situation and Cutler didnt want to fix it. So its not like McDanials is trying to get rid of all things Shanahan to make it his team Cutler was just a baby and now Marshall is pulling a TO and again its not McDanials fault.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

       -- "What good fortune BB had with Brady.  Most would like to call belichick a genius for this, but if any (including bb) had an inkling that brady would become one of the best qb's ever, he never ever would have lasted to the 6th round." --

    Scott Pioli himself has said this, and it is no secret that good fortune is a key component of scouting. This is no different than having the good fortune to be the worst team in the league the year a "can't-miss" quarterback prospect is available. Teams have tanked for less.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

       -- "What good fortune BB had with Brady.  Most would like to call belichick a genius for this, but if any (including bb) had an inkling that brady would become one of the best qb's ever, he never ever would have lasted to the 6th round." -- Scott Pioli himself has said this, and it is no secret that good fortune is a key component of scouting. This is no different than having the good fortune to be the worst team in the league the year a "can't-miss" quarterback prospect is available. Teams have tanked for less.
    Posted by prairiemike


    Ahh but, there is no guarantee that a can't miss is can't miss.  Debate raged about who should be taken Manning or Leaf.  They were 1 and 1a.  Today one is the best QB in football while the other is preparing to turn himself in on drug and burglary charges.  If we are talking good fortune, the good fortune is that we made the right pick. 

    Further, there is so much pressure to be right with the first pick that it is not all that desirable.  Since Manning was drafted, 7 other QB's have been taken #1.  tim couch, Mike vick, david carr, carson palmer, eli manning, alex smith, jamarcus russell.  by my count only 2 of those qualify as being worthy of their pick. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    My recollection of Ryan Leaf is that he came out of nowhere and was touted all out of proportion to his pedigree primarily because there were concerns about Manning's "intangibles." The perception was that Manning was not a prime-time guy -- that he could not deliver in the clutch. I watched a lot of Manning at Tennessee (my best friend back then was an Alabama alum, and if you think Patriots fans hate Manning, you should have heard this guy) and that perception was not without merit -- and in point of fact it took Manning many years to dispell that notion. Leaf, on the other hand, was just a big arm, and you're absolutely right, those guys are ten cents for 12. I always felt that the idea Baltimore . . .   oops . . .  Indianapolis would take Leaf over Manning was laughable. Of course, I don't think anyone expected Leaf to be the poster child for Ultimate Draft Failure, but it just goes to show you what an incredible crapshoot the draft is.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    And yet you use the phrase "can't miss" quarterback. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...



    Manning was raised to play quarterback from the time he could walk. That's why scouts overlooked his choking tendencies. He was as can't-miss as anyone since Jim Plunkett, and Plunkett got battered for years before his promise panned out.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    So was Todd Marinovich.

    and yet with manning's overlooked choking tendencies (which I happen to agree with - former sec guy here) how could you then call him can't miss.  choking isn't a frequently used quality when describing "can't miss".  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    Wasnt Manning taken # 1 over all? useally when someone is taken that high its because the team thinks he is cant miss. whether he was in fact cant miss doesnt really matter all that matters is the Colts thought he was cant miss or else they would have taken someone else.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dead54. Show Dead54's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    For example, Peter King said the Bears are going to be the fourth best team because they added Cutler . Wow! There's going to be a huge deflation when Cutler doesn't do well. And he won't do well. Who's going to catch his passes? What happens when the fridged, swirling winds start blowing 40 knots? And when things aren't going well, he's not going to have the character to trudge through it. He's going to turn on his team. It will be very ugly, but he brought it all on himself.
    Posted by Ritchie_az


    The Bears the 4th best team in the league? Fourth best in NFC if they are lucky... And speaking of bad, strong-armed QBs who are hurting their teams... Can you imagine Vikes and Bears in the end of the year? Two stubborn, inaccurate Qb's throwing bombs downfield in defiance of the wind.... So their horrible receivers can drop them? Also, I'm not sure he'll turn on his team. He might cry at Lovie, and isn't a good leader, but I don't think he's the bus throwing type. Is he? I never paid attention to the Broncos.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: Josh Mac tabs Kyle Orton as starter...

    "Also, I'm not sure he'll turn on his team. He might cry at Lovie, and isn't a good leader, but I don't think he's the bus throwing type. Is he?"

    With all the pressure that's being placed on him, when everything's falling apart, he's not going to say "It's my fault." It'll be the receivers, the line, the defense (that's what it was last year), the coaches--it'll be someone else's fault. He doesn't have the character to take any of the blame.
     
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