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In response to TexasPat's comment:
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In response to TexasPat's comment:
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Which brings us to the G-men. True, they have plenty of holes to fill...with their greatest needs being on their defensive and offensive lines. That's where they should seek help in the draft. Though WR Victor Cruz is a very good slot receiver and a fan favorite...he's not worth upsetting the teams' salary structure to pay him the kind of money that he's seeking. Nor is Hakeem Nicks worthy of breaking the bank on. He's too injury prone. Eli Manning can and will make due with lesser receivers, so long as he's adequately protected.
done next year? of course not!! thats queenie talking his bs again
hell at 8-5 they were primed then it fell off so time to regroup...i know they are in a real division in a superior conference but i fully expect a nice bounce back, especially this coming season where their schedule downgrades from ridiculous to normal : )
The Giants need to decide on how they handle WRs Nicks, and Cruz. What do you think that they should do? Both guys want huge money. At least one will not get it. Might they not be better off going with Randle, in place of Nicks...and bringing in a far less expensive slot receiver than Cruz? Next season, if Victor's mind is on his contract and not fully into his play, the results could be disasterous. Look what happened with DeSean Jackson and Mike Wallace, when they appeared to be more concerned about protecting themselves from injury, than for going all out on the field. The Giants should scrap these glamour boys...and go full bore towards rebuilding their OL and DL.
well Tex first off I don;t consider either Nicks or Cruz "glamour boys"-not sure how or why you do but the Giants are like the Pats in that they really don't have many players u would call glamour
RESPONSE: Here are a series of excellent articles dealing with how overrated WRs are to an offense. I think you'll find these articles illuminating: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/moss-another-shiny-hood-ornament-wide-receiver/7510/; http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/draft-primer-those-shiny-wide-receivers/2454/; and http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/kerry_byrne/01/10/julio.jones.trade/index.html
Furthermore, I'll remind you of the 2006 Patriots, who let starting WRs Deion Branch and David Givens go, in order to spare the team from tying up huge money at the WR position. The Pats still came within an eyelash of winning another SB in 2006...while Branch and Givens did nothing for their new teams, in Tennessee and Seattle. I agree with the "Shiny Hood Orniment" theory discussed in the articles above. NFL games are won or lost primarily by OL/DL play, and QB play. A good QB makes a WR...not the other way around. Cruz and Nicks would be average players if they weren't playing with a quality QB like Eli.
as for Cruz calling him a "slot" reciever is a misnomer because of his size mostly-he is just a reciever who lines up in the slot but unlike WW and others he will go outside or long (witness the 75 yard game winner vs Redskins last year) ...and it amazes me how that term "slot receiver" has become this snide disparaging label when people use it that way...Pats fans not wanting to pay WW because he is a "slot receiver" is absolutely head shaking and hilarious to outside fans like me-the guy goes 120/1500 6 yrs in a row basically but he's a SLOT receiver...
RESPONSE: Surely you jest. Welker is a 5'9", 185 lb., 32 year old slot receiver. He's certainly made the most of his abilities in N.E....and is a quality receiver. But, are you seriously going to argue that the Pats should franchise him again, and pay him $11.4 mil. in 2013?? Sure...his play is deserving of a big money contract. But, the salary cap restricts what teams can do. What the Pats are paying Brady, Mankins, and Wilfolk eats up 35% of their cap space. The Pats place more value on certain positions...and WRs are not as valued in New England as elsewhere. Don't forget that RT Sebastien Vollmer and CB Aqib Talib are UFAs, too. Who do the Pats need more, a very good 32 year old WR, a top notch OT in his prime (bad back notwithstanding), or a very good, physical CB? Under cap restrictions, it's apparent to me that the Pats would be foolish to strap themselves to a lucrative, 2-3 year contract for a 32 year old WR. As for the Giants, are you suggesting that they saddle themselves to Nicks and/or Cruz for $10mil. per season, or more? That's what Cruz is seeking, and he's in his prime. Look what happened to DeSean Jackson, after contract issues clouded his play.
Dunno what they will do but they cleared some nice space to resign both Cruz and Nicks but of the two yes I agree keep Cruz-he is harder to displace than Nicks- tho i do believe Nicks is a heck of a receiver and had a wonderful SB46 for us
RESPONSE: Both Cruz and Nicks are good players. But, what's more necessary to the future success of the Giants...strong line play, or good receivers? Job one in NY is protecting Eli. Job two in NY is getting to the opposing QB. Due to cap restrictions, a team can't have everything. The Giants would be wise to sink their resources in their OL and DL...rather than tie up their assets at the WR position. The greatest WRs in the world are worthless, if Eli is consistently getting flattened...and eventually gets hurt.
well i take the above u posted about receivers with a grain of salt to be honest...that is typical of the computer generation that now has all this time on their hands to think and think and come up with 100 different ways to reduce everything in sports to numbers and mathematical formulas...kind of like the billy beane's of the world who think players are robots and cogs instead of people-the main reason his team has sucess to a point but no bananas...i take that and then filter it thru the eye test, what's inside a player, how he plays when, etc..so again all that "cold hard" data is taken with a more than a grain of salt by me
RESPONSE: What are you talking about?? Billy Beane was and is a successful GM, though he's operating every year with a shoe-string budget. He has his Moneyball formula, and, it works! I suggest you read the book, "Moneyball"...not watch the movie. Lots of good stuff in that book. BB also follows a set formula for rating and evaluating players. It too works. Dispite those two razor thin SB losses to the Giants, is there any doubt that the Patriots have been the most successful NFL team over the past decade? Sorry...but what those guys are talking about in those articles that I posted above make sense to me, and are backed up by facts.
second saying Cruz and Nicks would be average is an underestimation of their abilities and it's been proven in the biggest crunch time on the biggest stage too-see i dont neceassarily believe in separating the wrs from their qb in most situations-it doesn't matter if eli makes them or they make him or a combination...if they are all here and it all works thats the bottom line
RESPONSE: Where did I state that they are "average" players? I credited them as being good receivers. But, much of the credit for their success lies in the fact that they're playing with one of the top QBs in the game. How good would they be if they played in Arizona with Kevin Kolb? How effective was arguably the games' best receiver, Larry Fitzgerald, with Kolb as his QB?
I wouldn't bring in the average receivers the Pats had back when b/c Tom Brady is the main ingredient and Giants don't have him nor that D and adam Vinitieri, nor play in the afc east and all the other things that figure in-if ur point is cruz and nicks are so easily replaced and u justify that view by comparing them to givens and branch u are off base there
RESPONSE: Stop the nonsense about playing in the AFC East. The NFC East has been no better...maybe worse. Until last year, the Washington Redskins were the Washington Generals for the past decade. The Eagles are awful, and the Dallas Cowboys have withered under the stewardship of GM Jerry Jones. The truth about the G-men is that their defense is all about getting to the opposing QB. When they can't do that, their mediocre at best LBs and secondary gets exposed. If the Giants are to regain their status as legitimate SB contenders, they must rebuild their pass rush, and must do a better job of protecting Eli.
not sure why u seem to be minimizing Cruz and Nicks so much
RESPONSE: Did you bother to read the articles I posted? That will explain it...along with what I've seen with the Patriots over the years. Again I repeat...the Patriots nearly won a SB with a bunch of bargain basement WRs. But, when their defense stopped applying pressure to the opposing QBs, they had problems stopping anybody.
as for WW i did not bring in up his salary demands nor said the pats have to resign him-i was making the point that the "only a slot receiver " claim as the reason not to pay him/resign him is both overstated and silly-especially based on his prodcution...those who think he will be so easily replaced (kind of like ur cruz/nicks opines) may well be unpleasantly surprised
RESPONSE: Wes is outstanding in the Patriots' system. But, imagine how much better the Pats would be if they could switch out Welker for, say, Larry Fitzgerald? Wes simply isn't in the same class as Fitz, Megatron, and budding star Torrey Smith. At age 32, he's not worth an $8-10mil. per year deal. Neither is Cruz or Nicks. That money could be better spent on the OL and DL.
ur more aggressive than normal here Tex...I am NOT Rusty after all!!! : )
RESPONSE: Agressive? Just stating my opinions on the Giants and Welker...and listing the reasons for my opinions.
with beane u don't seem to be getting the bigger picture I am pointing to
first off very familiar with billy beane and his moneyball formula and my point is exactly what i said it was: billy beane is hailed as some sort of "genius" and his teams have won nothing-not even a pennant. remember when they were up 2-0 on the yanks heading home and couldn't win one more that showed exactly what i am talking about. Beane is a button down accountant type who treats people like robots, said managers are just there to push button and that anyone can do it and makes every move based on data and math, which is why his team goes so far and no further-computers and mathematics do not measure what's inside a person, how they will perform under pressure, heart, desire, improvisation-i really don't think billy sacred computers would have predicted derek jeters amazing flip to nail jeremy giambi at the plateb/c what jeter brings is NOT measurable only-if at all-by "cold hard data"
then when the yanks came back and won-because they know how and because they had the smarts and heart his robots didn't he actually got mad and screamed about their payroll and buying everything blah blah blah-after all his years of saying money didn't matter and correct applied formulae is the ticket-when it failed him he became a petulant whiner
sorry, billy beane, and all ur starry eyed and bedazzled disciples - moneyball is only big because it speaks to a generation/modern age of computer geeks and tech heads who think all the answers lie there....his a's have never won the biggie and they will never win and he will never understand any other way to do it...matter of fact he can lean on his limited payroll as proof of his "genius" but who says he would win with no spending limits? doesn't work that way tex (see sather, glenn new york rangers)
say how did the marlins win with so little a payroll billy boy and ur a's can't win a pennant?
u either get that or u dont tex, i cant explain it any better-and the "facts" back it up and will every year his team doesn't win and it was proven in spades vs the yanks...u either get what i am saying or u are too "logical" and want to praise bean beyond his actual accomplishments like so many (btw his formulas appeal has cooled in the big leagues)
as for ur pats sorry...brady bellichick and weak division moreso than any cap magic (i know you want to think BB of football is the BB of baseball but nope)...sorry the other three teams in the AFC Easy have been all shades of medicore to awful for a decade plus and have sent less teams to the playoffs than any division except perhaps the nfc west...dont take it personally tex but pats can pencil in 4-6 wins a year every year in that sad sack divsion and 6 a couple of times no sweat...no way playing the ravens and steelers twice every year (hell thre bengals were better than the other 3 stiffs in the afc east last year with a much better qb than all 3) do they win the division every year and post 11+ wins...sorry afc easy a major reason-and what that has to do with the giants and the nfc east i dunno
btw if ur pats "almost" won with bargain basement receivers goody for them...that means other teams are meant to do it that way? that means jints and others shouldn't bolster their o wit the best receivers they can to help their D? i didnt say to the detriment of the o line or d as a whole but still...and a question: what if u spent a weeeeee bit more on those bargain basement wr's? lombardi's? if yes shame on kraft...if no ur argument is moot
WW? said what i said and i dont get the comparisons to fitzgerald or megatron etc...that is not his role and physically he is not able to do it anyway...my point-yet again-is that if some fans here use "slot receiver" as this disparaging putdown (really only in the past year since welker had the audacity to think he earned a little something from kraft) it is laughable in the face of his production and the prolific nature of the pats offense with him in it...thats all dont take it beyond that
that all tired out my fingers and i am pretty much done b/c i restated what i said teh best i can and we can agree to disagree if u like-my points on beane, the afc east and ww are what they are
ditto cruz and nicks-and i dont know what the jints will do but i have faith in reese-he has earned that...and no i dont think nicks and cruz were "made" by eli and don't really care what some eggheads or media "experts" said about that-i see with my own eyes
maybe beane ought to do more of that his team may actually get over that hump
nah, too "smart" for that after all
