KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptnFoxboro. Show CaptnFoxboro's posts

    KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    Does anybody really believe Goodell has any real juice in ending the contract dispute ?

     

    The real culprit here are the Owners , and I find it interesting that Shelly Winters ...I mean Robert Kraft has so far been gettin' a pass .

     

    Time to hold the owners responsible for pizzin on the integrity of the game in order to save a few bucks .

    IT'S TIME FOR KRAFT & CO. TO ADMIT THEY SCREWED UP AND PAY THE REAL REFS .

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    In response to CaptnFoxboro's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Does anybody really believe Goodell has any real juice in ending the contract dispute ?

     

    The real culprit here are the Owners , and I find it interesting that Shelly Winters ...I mean Robert Kraft has so far been gettin' a pass .

     

    Time to hold the owners responsible for pizzin on the integrity of the game in order to save a few bucks .

    IT'S TIME FOR KRAFT & CO. TO ADMIT THEY SCREWED UP AND PAY THE REAL REFS .

    [/QUOTE]

    they are paying the ref's. From what I understand, $138,000 for 16 Sundays a year. They are also paying into the ref's retirement, but they wish to change the retirement vehicle from a pension plan to a 401k, same as the rest of corporate America.

    Since this is America, the ref's have the option of telling the owners "pass"...which is what they have done. This being America, the owners have the right to hire replacements so they can continue to run their business.

    seems to me, the ref's are expecting benefits that do not exist in the work place anymore.

    How is this Krafts fault?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    Kraft is one of the lead owners in the league.  Goodell reports to the Owners.  Goodell represents the league. 

    Thus Kraft represents the league. 

    The owners call the shots not the commissioner.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptnFoxboro. Show CaptnFoxboro's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    rkarp

    Let me get this straight ...your argument for the owners is :

    a) The refs are only part-time

    b) OK to change the pension rules because "everybody else is doing it "

     

    a )

    If the first 3 weeks of the season have taught us anything - it's that the regular refs had a skill set that cannot be easily replaced .  I would even go so far as to say that what they bring to the table can be described as a " talent ".

     You erroneous claim  of "16 weeks Sundays of work " conveniently leaves out the preseason / post season slate ( potentially adding up to another 2 months ) as well as other mandatory NFL related scheduling .

     The point is moot anyway -

    Who really cares whether they put in 3 months or 12 ?

    The NFL is paying for their "talent " more than their time.  The NFL isn't in the "making widgets " business ( where time = production )

    They are in the ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS .

    When you go to a Russell Crowe flick , you don't leave the theater thinking "Gladiator was awesome  , too bad the guy in charge of cinematography only worked  on set for a measly 16 weeks " .
     He may not have been the star of the movie  - but without his "talent"  the overall product would suffer  , and the time he put in was irrelevant  , as long as he did a good job.

    No matter how much time you put in , it ultimately boils down to talent.

    b ) Your 2nd point holds even less water .

    The refs should be commended for not cow-towing to Corporate America .

    ( I know I shouldn't be asking this but ...you also vote straight Republican ticket right ? )

    So under your logic  -

    If Corporate America decides to completely do away with Pensions - the Refs should follow suit ...and like it.

    I understand the NFL is blatherin' about how they have full time employees who are not getting the same sweetheart pension plan ( market-based 401k instead ) , so the "part-time" refs should be strip sacked of their original pension plan.

    In the words of that almighty Baltimore fanbase " B-U-L-L-S-H-*-T "
     

    There full time employees can walk if they dont like it ( my guess is it would take about 2 days to fill their positions with likely equally as "talented " counterparts.

     

    Is Kraft to blame ?


    YES .

    Maybe he secretly wants to settle with the Refs , but so far his silence speaks volumes.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    no, my arguement is freedom of choice. The ref's made their choice and the owners made their choice (I think Goodell is simply the mouthpiece)

    You in turn have the right to not buy tickets, or turn off the TV (based on your Republican comment, I assume you do not buy tickets)

    You can commend the refs for not "cow towing" to corporate America. Some one else can also commend the owners for not caving to union bullies.

    the point is in America their are choices, and each side made theirs. 

    since this negotiation went down to the wire of opening kick off (and still continues), the owners did not have a chance for proper contingency plans...given the time, next year they will have completely upgraded the referee staff, have more ref's in place to assure the poor performers are weeded out.

    not that what I am hearing carries any merit, but I am hearing that the ref's will agree to a contract this week. they will "give in" on every issue the owners are offering...  

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    The real refs are asking for what I consider to be outrageous demands.  As much as I really don't like these fake refs out there I agree with the owners and the NFL for standing their ground here.  Refs do not add any entertainment value to the game.  Last I checked nobody is going out and purchasing their favorite ref's zebra stripe shirt with number on the back and wearing it to the games.  Also, I have not seen 1 ref trading card, ever!  

    The real refs make horrible calls too so that's not going to completely change.  Sure there might be less in some cases, more in other cases, the matter of the fact is the game isn't going to be perfect once the real ref's come back.

    I assume the ref's are employees and not independent contractors, right?  Also, does anyone know if NFL officials pay for their own travel expenses? 

     

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    As with most 2 party disagreements, there is blame to go around.  The problem the NFL has is that for the past few years they have painted themselves and champions of player safety but by allowing these incompetent replacement officials to work games, the NFL(Goodell and owners) are showing they clearly put their bottom line and their own pride ahead of player safety.  The hypocrisy is blatant.

    Sure, the refs demands might be a bit excessive considering they are part time workers but in reality their demands, from a financial perspective, are a pretty small slice of the NFL pie. The refs also now have another thing going for them, which is that clearly they are a valued commodity because the guys hired to replace them are not of the same caliber.


    Goodell and the owners are ulitimately about their own bottom line and Goodell is clearly an arrogant guy, who clearly does not want to get out negotiated, in the public eye, by a bunch of officials.  Especially on the heals of the embarrassment that was his handling of the bountygate suspension.


    Ironically, like most controversy, the disaster that is the replacement refs is probably good for NFL viewership.  It is just another story line for ESPN and the rest of the networks to sell.  No press is bad press so the only real losers are the players, the officials, and fans who have to watch a comprimised product. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    In response to ricky12684's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    how many owner's jerseys and playing cards have you bought? when is the last time bob kraft scored a touchdown?.. and no i'm not talking about the woman less then half his age.

    have you watched the nfl the past 3 weeks? i think the value of the real ref's has been clearly established and the multi billionaire owners need to pay up.

    [/QUOTE]


    I did get Kraft's autograph at the game on the game day program one time.

    Owners = teams.  millions of people purchase team memorabilia.

    But what I was getting at is the Refs certainly do not have the type of leverage the players would have holding out.  Why do they figure they deserve so much?  They are making a ton of money here and wanting more.  It's an insult!  Seriously, they think they can hold the game hostage here and the league is calling their bluff.  

    If these officials want to make this a full time gig for that type of money while spending their time away from the game getting education and training to make them better officials then hey, I am all for it.  But a part time job with that kind of money and a retirement program... WOW!!

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    the ref's do have a choice. accept a part time job at $138,000 dollars for 16 games of work, get tremendous medical benefits, and get money towards retirement ina 401K that you get to manage on your own.

    the ref's also have a 2nd choice...find a better part time job.  

     

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davedsone. Show Davedsone's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    Yeah, just fold whenever anyone asks for WAY more of something.  Good strategy.  Surprised you aren't the CEO of something.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    Issue has now become teams because of the refs are having their playoffs chances screwed with regardless of whose fault it is.

    The 5 yd bump rule is nonexistant, holding never a consistent call is even worse. The PI call on the Pats when Woodhead or Edleman caught it while sitting down was pure BS.

    Heck even the announcers said it was terrible the whole game and not just some plays.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from sfpat. Show sfpat's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    I don't believe Kraft is on the committee that is negotiating with the refs.  I believe it is being led by Bob McNair of the Texans.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from NY-PATS-FAN4. Show NY-PATS-FAN4's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    In response to ricky12684's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    no, my arguement is freedom of choice. The ref's made their choice and the owners made their choice (I think Goodell is simply the mouthpiece)

    You in turn have the right to not buy tickets, or turn off the TV (based on your Republican comment, I assume you do not buy tickets)

    You can commend the refs for not "cow towing" to corporate America. Some one else can also commend the owners for not caving to union bullies.

    the point is in America their are choices, and each side made theirs. 

    since this negotiation went down to the wire of opening kick off (and still continues), the owners did not have a chance for proper contingency plans...given the time, next year they will have completely upgraded the referee staff, have more ref's in place to assure the poor performers are weeded out.

    not that what I am hearing carries any merit, but I am hearing that the ref's will agree to a contract this week. they will "give in" on every issue the owners are offering...  

    [/QUOTE]


    choice my @$$, there is only the illusion of choice. let's be real here the owner's.. the $... holds all the cards... the owner's don't care about having replacement ref's, they are still banking at record levels.. yeah the ref's have a choice all right, give in or become jobless... oh what a choice!

    [/QUOTE]


    The problem with "choice" as an NFL referee is that if you are not employed by the NFL, there is nowhere else you can work for similar money. The owners know this. The only leverage refs have is a damaged product on the field. The owners seem quite content to live with this.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptnFoxboro. Show CaptnFoxboro's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    Appreciate the differing views expressed here  .

    For the record  , In the past I've admittedly had mixed feelings about Robert Kraft's stewardship of the Patriots . He won me over for life though when he brought in BB and built the new stadium , (even though there's no denying he looks a lot like a lesbian Shelly Winters  )
     After Kraft did such an amazing job in helping to settle the NFL Players Lock-out , I guess I just expected more leadership from him during this unnecessary dispute .

    To be fair  , there are certain aspects of the Owners position I agree with ( like holding bad Refs more accountable , and reserving the right to "bench" them ) but I strongly disagree with the owners tactics of  refusing to negotiate this preseason in the hopes that the Refs would cave after missing a few pay checks.

    It's backfired , and now it's time for them to admit the F'd up and stop insulting the game.

    rkarp -

    You and I likely don't share much in common besides being Pats fans

    ( especially if you actually think NFL Refs are "Union Bullies " )

       Unless you've got something less delusional to add to the argument - I suggest you stick to watching your favorite fair n balanced self-masturbatory news network

    ( No doubt it's where you learned that "the refs will give in this week and agree to every issue the owners are demanding "  )

    I can't wait for the day when the right wing of the NFL Owners favorite party implodes their meal ticket and our nation begins to rid itself of the carpetbaggin' pimps ( from both sides of the aisle ) that have been buying and selling Capitol Hill for way too long .

    PS - Also for the record  , you and your kind may not want to believe it but you don't have to be affiliated with your grand ol party to be able to "buy tickets " . Attended my first game at Schaefer Stadium in 1975 ( Cowboys ) and my last one in 2011 ( Broncs Div. Playoff ) .

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from sporter81. Show sporter81's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    Kraft isn't to blame at all and is probably the best owner in the league. He's been a key contributor in making the NFL what it is today, the best professional sport out there. I'm sure that he wants the real refs back but with a deal that will benifit everyone.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    In response to CaptnFoxboro's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Appreciate the differing views expressed here  .

    For the record  , In the past I've admittedly had mixed feelings about Robert Kraft's stewardship of the Patriots . He won me over for life though when he brought in BB and built the new stadium , (even though there's no denying he looks a lot like a lesbian Shelly Winters  )
     After Kraft did such an amazing job in helping to settle the NFL Players Lock-out , I guess I just expected more leadership from him during this unnecessary dispute .

    To be fair  , there are certain aspects of the Owners position I agree with ( like holding bad Refs more accountable , and reserving the right to "bench" them ) but I strongly disagree with the owners tactics of  refusing to negotiate this preseason in the hopes that the Refs would cave after missing a few pay checks.

    It's backfired , and now it's time for them to admit the F'd up and stop insulting the game.

    rkarp -

    You and I likely don't share much in common besides being Pats fans

    ( especially if you actually think NFL Refs are "Union Bullies " )

       Unless you've got something less delusional to add to the argument - I suggest you stick to watching your favorite fair n balanced self-masturbatory news network

    ( No doubt it's where you learned that "the refs will give in this week and agree to every issue the owners are demanding "  )

    I can't wait for the day when the right wing of the NFL Owners favorite party implodes their meal ticket and our nation begins to rid itself of the carpetbaggin' pimps ( from both sides of the aisle ) that have been buying and selling Capitol Hill for way too long .

    PS - Also for the record  , you and your kind may not want to believe it but you don't have to be affiliated with your grand ol party to be able to "buy tickets " . Attended my first game at Schaefer Stadium in 1975 ( Cowboys ) and my last one in 2011 ( Broncs Div. Playoff ) .

    [/QUOTE]

    If the NFL had the time to hire, train new ref's and the transition went smoothly, would you still be complaining on behalf of the old ref's being treated unfairly? 

    My assumption is if the games were properly officiated, this would have been a non issue. I am quite certain, you would not complaining on their behalf.

    this is not a $$$ issue with 38 referees as reported. The NFL is paying over 10,000 people on various types of contracts. Everyone one of them are now a 401k plan, as you and I are, and as most of corporate America is. Why aren't you complaining on behalf of the other 9962 employees who are also on a 401k plan?

    I also know that the retirement issue is not real issue. The NFL will HIRE MORE officials, and start to hold all officials to more accountability of their work. This accountability is what the impasse is about.

    Lastly, I understand that there is already conversation on where Thursdays press conference be held assuming an agreement. Not that it is complete yet, but very close.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    Not unlike the players, the refs have every right to negotiate for the best employment deal and the league has every right to negotiate for their best deal.  When those two things are contrary to one another, you have what we as fans have today. 

    but I am sick of the complaining coaches.  They are extensions of the organizations that own the league and employ the league negotiators.  Interestingly the most complaining coaches are those that have been at the top of the league in recent years. 

    The owners' silence on the matter of the refs is deafening. 

    Someone noted that this was not bad for the NFL because the publicity on the matter is huge and front page material. 

    I honestly do not anticipate the refs getting their way on this deal.  If all that separates a deal is pension vs. 401k, I see the owners waiting this thing out and telling their coaches to shut up. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    In response to UD6's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not unlike the players, the refs have every right to negotiate for the best employment deal and the league has every right to negotiate for their best deal.  When those two things are contrary to one another, you have what we as fans have today. 

    but I am sick of the complaining coaches.  They are extensions of the organizations that own the league and employ the league negotiators.  Interestingly the most complaining coaches are those that have been at the top of the league in recent years. 

    The owners' silence on the matter of the refs is deafening. 

    Someone noted that this was not bad for the NFL because the publicity on the matter is huge and front page material. 

    I honestly do not anticipate the refs getting their way on this deal.  If all that separates a deal is pension vs. 401k, I see the owners waiting this thing out and telling their coaches to shut up. 

    [/QUOTE]

    the hold up is not pension vs 401k...

    the hold up is that the NFL is going to make the ref's accountable for their on field performance every Sunday, and have additional ref's trained and  ready to substitute in for the poorly rated ref's.

    the accountability issue is the real reason for the hold up...

    I commend the owners for trying to up the level of refereeing by having sub's ready for the ref's doing a poor job. the owners dropped the ball however by not starting this NEXT year, with this year serving as the hiring and training period for the new ref's.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptnFoxboro. Show CaptnFoxboro's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    rkarp ...

    On your financial point , we are in total agreement and your idea about the owners being better served strategically to wait and get better prepared was spot on .

    This would have also served to help sway public opinion against the refs if they balked at showing up for work .

    That said ,

    I 'd also like to add that I'm not the only one calling for Kraft to nut-up .

    MIKE REISS' COLUMN TODAY :

    If you're a Patriots follower, it's fair to request an explanation from owner Robert Kraft as to why things have unfolded this way. I wondered what Kraft was thinking as he watched Sunday night's loss to the Ravens, because he was essentially wearing two hats -- influential NFL owner who protects the best interests of the league, and Patriots fan that saw first-hand his team getting victimized by over matched officials.

     

    Kraft/Goodell It's time for Robert Kraft and the other owners to get in commissioner Roger Goodell's ear to reach a resolution with the NFL officials.

    The optimist in me wanted to believe it might have been enough for Kraft to have added motivation to serve as a bridge-builder between the league and its regular officials -- just like he did with players.

     

    PS -

    I apologize to all for injectin' political spin into a sports discussion in my earlier post ...man those 1% 's can get me goin' sometimes , and its hard not to see this in part as mega-rich owners vs. middle class refs ( upper /upper middle class to be sure ) and workin' stiff fans .

    Political season or not  ...Henceforth I promise to abstain.

     

    My name is Capt. F and I approve of this message .

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: KRAFT = To Blame For REF Fiasco

    In response to CaptnFoxboro's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Appreciate the differing views expressed here  .

    For the record  , In the past I've admittedly had mixed feelings about Robert Kraft's stewardship of the Patriots . He won me over for life though when he brought in BB and built the new stadium , (even though there's no denying he looks a lot like a lesbian Shelly Winters  )
     After Kraft did such an amazing job in helping to settle the NFL Players Lock-out , I guess I just expected more leadership from him during this unnecessary dispute .

    To be fair  , there are certain aspects of the Owners position I agree with ( like holding bad Refs more accountable , and reserving the right to "bench" them ) but I strongly disagree with the owners tactics of  refusing to negotiate this preseason in the hopes that the Refs would cave after missing a few pay checks.

    It's backfired , and now it's time for them to admit the F'd up and stop insulting the game.

    rkarp -

    You and I likely don't share much in common besides being Pats fans

    ( especially if you actually think NFL Refs are "Union Bullies " )

       Unless you've got something less delusional to add to the argument - I suggest you stick to watching your favorite fair n balanced self-masturbatory news network

    ( No doubt it's where you learned that "the refs will give in this week and agree to every issue the owners are demanding "  )

    I can't wait for the day when the right wing of the NFL Owners favorite party implodes their meal ticket and our nation begins to rid itself of the carpetbaggin' pimps ( from both sides of the aisle ) that have been buying and selling Capitol Hill for way too long .

    PS - Also for the record  , you and your kind may not want to believe it but you don't have to be affiliated with your grand ol party to be able to "buy tickets " . Attended my first game at Schaefer Stadium in 1975 ( Cowboys ) and my last one in 2011 ( Broncs Div. Playoff ) .

    [/QUOTE]


    Captain

    i just wish to point out the the settlement was this week and the refs caved on every issue save a few $$$$

    dont be shocked over the next few years to see 75% ref turnover 

    could my masturbatory channel have been correct?

    are you still fighting for the thousands of non ref employees that don't have what you deem unfair  benefits?

     

     
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