Kraft: "WE Offered Welker a Better Contract Than Welker Got. That is Sad"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    King...wouldn't it be great to see the Pats in this SB in NJ ..with a pass to DA sealing the deal? What do you think Leon?

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    Man, people get on me to let this go, which I do until these same people keep it going with more and more threads.

    It's all about who you believe.  The Patriots have used the strong arm tactic before, does it not surprise you they did it here again?  More and more stories continue to come out on what happened,,

    From Breer on NFL network today:

    The Patriots' final offer was two years for $10 million. Incentives could have pushed the deal to $16 million. The offer to Welker included $1 million incentives for making All-Pro each year, $1 million incentives for 1,500 yards receiving each year, $1 million for being a Pro Bowl starter in 2014 and $1 million for 1,300 yards in 2014. According to the source, Welker's camp then suggested something in the range of the two-year, $14 million that the Titans offered the receiver, with incentives to push it to $16 million.

    ******

    Those are some pretty tough incentives to meet especially if they continued to try and phase him out of the offense with less playing time.



    Wow - talk about incentives.  I guess when you are the best in the league at your position the bar has to be set pretty high.  And with that comment, the question must be begged - for all that the guy has done for the franchise and with Brady's restructuring, the pats couldn't come up with a few bucks more to allow Wes to accomplish what Kraft said he wanted?  

    Based on those incentives, this isn't about market value.  those parameters indicate that Welker performs well above market value.  The patriots just aren't willing to pay for that.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to UD6's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    Man, people get on me to let this go, which I do until these same people keep it going with more and more threads.

    It's all about who you believe.  The Patriots have used the strong arm tactic before, does it not surprise you they did it here again?  More and more stories continue to come out on what happened,,

    From Breer on NFL network today:

    The Patriots' final offer was two years for $10 million. Incentives could have pushed the deal to $16 million. The offer to Welker included $1 million incentives for making All-Pro each year, $1 million incentives for 1,500 yards receiving each year, $1 million for being a Pro Bowl starter in 2014 and $1 million for 1,300 yards in 2014. According to the source, Welker's camp then suggested something in the range of the two-year, $14 million that the Titans offered the receiver, with incentives to push it to $16 million.

    ******

    Those are some pretty tough incentives to meet especially if they continued to try and phase him out of the offense with less playing time.

     



    Wow - talk about incentives.  I guess when you are the best in the league at your position the bar has to be set pretty high.  And with that comment, the question must be begged - for all that the guy has done for the franchise and with Brady's restructuring, the pats couldn't come up with a few bucks more to allow Wes to accomplish what Kraft said he wanted?  

     

    Based on those incentives, this isn't about market value.  those parameters indicate that Welker performs well above market value.  The patriots just aren't willing to pay for that.  



    Welker couldn't come down a few bucks? They ovepaid him with the franchise tag last year. What do you say about that UD?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     


    Welker couldn't come down a few bucks? They ovepaid him with the franchise tag last year. What do you say about that UD?

     



    Certainly not!  He played out a 5 year contract that he totally out perfomed.  Usually when a player does that the redo their contract about half way in or the last year of it.  And they do that not only to reward the player but to get the player now instead of waiting and having to pay out more, or go through something like this.  Kind of like they did with Gronk and Hernandez just recently.  He deserved a fair deal, certainly a better one then they offered him.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:


    That's not destroying me at all. So, you became a bandwagon Pats fan in 2001 and you're from northern California.

     

    If anything, that's admitting you're a bandwagon fan.  I am not.

    So, all you're really doing is proving my point. lol




    It most certainly is.  It just proves that you talk and talk and talk without knowing what you are talking about.  You make statements that are wrong.  I just proved you wrong.  And you look foolish even making that comment.  Here you are thinking you are making a point and going to "get" me, but as you can see you didn't. 

    A bandwagon fan? How so?  Do I have to be a Pats fan at birth?  For the record, I have never been a 49'ers fan, ever. 

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to Godvernment's comment:

    did you really become a pats fan in 2001? LOL




    It appears by your posts it was the same year you were born.  Hahahahahahahaha!!

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    Man, people get on me to let this go, which I do until these same people keep it going with more and more threads.

    It's all about who you believe.  The Patriots have used the strong arm tactic before, does it not surprise you they did it here again?  More and more stories continue to come out on what happened,,

    From Breer on NFL network today:

    The Patriots' final offer was two years for $10 million. Incentives could have pushed the deal to $16 million. The offer to Welker included $1 million incentives for making All-Pro each year, $1 million incentives for 1,500 yards receiving each year, $1 million for being a Pro Bowl starter in 2014 and $1 million for 1,300 yards in 2014. According to the source, Welker's camp then suggested something in the range of the two-year, $14 million that the Titans offered the receiver, with incentives to push it to $16 million.

    ******

    Those are some pretty tough incentives to meet especially if they continued to try and phase him out of the offense with less playing time.

     



    Wow - talk about incentives.  I guess when you are the best in the league at your position the bar has to be set pretty high.  And with that comment, the question must be begged - for all that the guy has done for the franchise and with Brady's restructuring, the pats couldn't come up with a few bucks more to allow Wes to accomplish what Kraft said he wanted?  

     

    Based on those incentives, this isn't about market value.  those parameters indicate that Welker performs well above market value.  The patriots just aren't willing to pay for that.  

     



    Welker couldn't come down a few bucks? They ovepaid him with the franchise tag last year. What do you say about that UD?

     

     



    Are we going to consider prior years now?  Excellent idea. Given Welker's production he was considerably underpaid for his prior 5 year deal at 18.1 mill.  3.6 per year?  Really?  I think 3 franchise tags would be required to get Welker's pay in line with his production. 

    Thing is, he didn't ask for that, but the pats wanted him to take 2 years and 10 mill.  That's a heckuva lot of thanks.  not.

    Fact is unlike Brady and Mankins, Welker played out his contract with minimal complaint.  Bob Kraft recognized a situation he could take advantage of and he did it.  Nothing wrong with that until he says disingenuous things like he wants Welker to be a patriot for life or wants to be seen as a compassionate owner.   

     

     

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    Jri - You and I can agree to disagree about Welker's pay.  I don't care where he plays as a receiver as today there are alot of twins, trips, and bunch formations. 

    Welker outproduced wideouts/slots/ and TE's over his time with the pats. 

    And yes, I do consider it disingenuous that Kraft said he wanted welker to be a patriot for life then, according to some very detailed text from Welker's agent suggests otherwise.  Someone who professes as much does more than make one effort to make that happen. 

     

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    Wow!  Rusty, I actually agree with your last 2 posts.

    Now, I'm taking cover as I expect a lightning bolt to hit at any moment.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    Jri - You and I can agree to disagree about Welker's pay.  I don't care where he plays as a receiver as today there are alot of twins, trips, and bunch formations. 

    Welker outproduced wideouts/slots/ and TE's over his time with the pats. 

    And yes, I do consider it disingenuous that Kraft said he wanted welker to be a patriot for life then, according to some very detailed text from Welker's agent suggests otherwise.  Someone who professes as much does more than make one effort to make that happen. 

     

     



    So the agent isn't disingenious only Kraft is... I get it now.

     

    Sorry doggg it is a 2 way street and Welker's representation butchered this one. How is that Welker only got a 2 year deal. Not one other team offered him more years and no team came close to offering him the 9-10 mil per year everyone said he was going to get.



    What did the agent say that was disingenuous?  I'm not saying he wasn't, I'm just not aware of it. 

    I don't think even Welker is surprised he got a 2 year deal, and the 9-10 million might have been offered last year, but not this year.  From a business perspective, the pats played last year right.  They franchised him and got another year out of him and low balled him this year. 

    Apparently another team offered him 7 (is that right?).  If the pats wanted to keep him, they could have found 2 million more.  They had the money from Brady's restructured deal.  1 million more each year and the deal likely would have been done.  They didn't want to deal. 

    I don't care if you defend the pats.  You should.  You're a fan, but don't say this doesn't stink a bit.  He's the most productive receiver in your franchises history and the team couldn't find 2 million dollars over 2 years. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    Jri - You and I can agree to disagree about Welker's pay.  I don't care where he plays as a receiver as today there are alot of twins, trips, and bunch formations. 

    Welker outproduced wideouts/slots/ and TE's over his time with the pats. 

    And yes, I do consider it disingenuous that Kraft said he wanted welker to be a patriot for life then, according to some very detailed text from Welker's agent suggests otherwise.  Someone who professes as much does more than make one effort to make that happen. 

     

     



    Here's a question: How many slot WRs had Tom Brady, Randy Moss, two HOFers, amongst a great O Line and O Line coach AND a brilliant head coach like BB alongside them like Welker?

     

    Hmm.

    Name another slot WR in this league, to begin with.  The reason why you can't name one that even comes close to Welker isn't JUST because of Welker being very good at what he does and no one not being close, it's because of the system.

    I'll bet you right now he doesn't get to 120 receptions with Gomer next year.

    Barring Denver using Welker differently next year, which is doubtful, a lot of it is how Brady could be able to put the ball in the right spot. That's not that easy.

    Manning's whole game last year was playaction and putting the ball up to larger WRs or TEs over the middle.

    Welker gets open very quickly, but if you take it away, which has been done as we've seen in recent playoff games even if he's had a few big plays bloating his stats, it can stall an offense.

     



    I see.  Diminish his accomplishments by trotting out all of the other people.  Did you ever think Moss might have benefitted from Welker?  Moss had his great years in Minnesota with whom?  Another great receiver carter.  Maybe Moss thrived due to Welker's presence.  Welker certainly thrived without Moss.  Moss without Welker or Carter - not so much. 

    Did you know that Brady never won an MVP without Welker?  Maybe Welker helps Brady.  Brady's certainly been his most productive with Welker.

    Would it matter if Welker got 120?  Is that the standard he must set?  I don't think so.  He just needs to help the offense be better.  He can do that. 

    Manning's had plenty of experience throwing to small receivers.  Marvin Harrison, Brandon Stokely, etc. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    Man, people get on me to let this go, which I do until these same people keep it going with more and more threads.

    It's all about who you believe.  The Patriots have used the strong arm tactic before, does it not surprise you they did it here again?  More and more stories continue to come out on what happened,,

    From Breer on NFL network today:

    The Patriots' final offer was two years for $10 million. Incentives could have pushed the deal to $16 million. The offer to Welker included $1 million incentives for making All-Pro each year, $1 million incentives for 1,500 yards receiving each year, $1 million for being a Pro Bowl starter in 2014 and $1 million for 1,300 yards in 2014. According to the source, Welker's camp then suggested something in the range of the two-year, $14 million that the Titans offered the receiver, with incentives to push it to $16 million.

    ******

    Those are some pretty tough incentives to meet especially if they continued to try and phase him out of the offense with less playing time.

     



    Wow - talk about incentives.  I guess when you are the best in the league at your position the bar has to be set pretty high.  And with that comment, the question must be begged - for all that the guy has done for the franchise and with Brady's restructuring, the pats couldn't come up with a few bucks more to allow Wes to accomplish what Kraft said he wanted?  

     

    Based on those incentives, this isn't about market value.  those parameters indicate that Welker performs well above market value.  The patriots just aren't willing to pay for that.  

     



    Welker couldn't come down a few bucks? They ovepaid him with the franchise tag last year. What do you say about that UD?

     

     



    Are we going to consider prior years now?  Excellent idea. Given Welker's production he was considerably underpaid for his prior 5 year deal at 18.1 mill.  3.6 per year?  Really?  I think 3 franchise tags would be required to get Welker's pay in line with his production. 

    Thing is, he didn't ask for that, but the pats wanted him to take 2 years and 10 mill.  That's a heckuva lot of thanks.  not.

    Fact is unlike Brady and Mankins, Welker played out his contract with minimal complaint.  Bob Kraft recognized a situation he could take advantage of and he did it.  Nothing wrong with that until he says disingenuous things like he wants Welker to be a patriot for life or wants to be seen as a compassionate owner.   

     

     

     




    "Take advantage of" or think that the TEAM comes first?   This is a flat cap hasn't changed much since 2009, Brady, Mankins and Wlfork were HERE BEFORE WELKER. They HAD to get paid before Wes. There was nothing Kraft could do other than trade one of those 3. I suggested a tag and trade on Mankins in 2010. Who knows if they got a 2nd rd offer. They may not have.

    Someone was going to get squeezed. Once Welker played games in 2011 rejecting a very generous deal of 16 million GUARANTEED, that was it. There is no way BB and Kraft are going to allow one player's wishes hold up the deal here. No way. That goes for Brady, too. He knows it.

    Wes and the agent, apparently, didn't know it.

     

    Welker would not have even made the 9.5 million last year if he got stuck in Miami in 2007, 2008 and 2009 in that mess.  So, he really wasn't that underpaid at all on the market. He was the slot market. Like I said, name me another slot WR in this league. You can't do it because no one lines up in the slot play after play with his success.

    He's had a great run here and he's a good dude, a very hard worker, and deserves whatever he can get and wants, but to pretend Kraft or BB shouldn't look out for the team to cater to past laurels in a tight market is an arrogant premise from a VERY JEALOUS Colts fan.

    Polian can't hold BB's personnel sheet.

    You always try to make it seem like what you're really jealous of (which is a superior owner GM and coach) is the devil, when the irony is, putting the team before one's own personal wishes is what started this whole dynasty in 2001.

    Case closed.

    Drew Bledsoe was not above the team in 2001.  Welker not above it in 2013.

     




    So the other guys got paid and then Brady just restructured.  Money available. 

    And yes BB and Kraft do make exceptions.  Brady caused a stink before his last contract and Mankins held out and even called Kraft a liar.  Wes didn't do either. 

    No one's saying he was underpaid last year - heck, although I think he was worth more, even I can accept that the market set him at 6 per.  But that's still the point.  Kraft says he wants welker to be a patriot for life, but then can't find 2 million more to get him there?  And please don't bring up the incentives.  They were over the top. 

    Finally - I am not at all jealous of anything.  I am just pointing out that Kraft said one thing but then was ruthlessly obstinate in reality.  He would have been better off saying I want welker to be a patriot for life as long as he takes our deal which we aren't going to stray from even if there is a slightly better (and 2 mill is slightly better) deal out there. 

    Heck Welker even personally called Kraft to beg him to match it (my assumption) and Kraft said no.  There's alot of thanks. 

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    Cards on the table here, guys.  As I've said on other threads, if it comes down to a 'who-do-you-believe' scenario then I'm with Robert Kraft.  Widely respected throughout NFL by both ownership and players.  That said, I really think it's time to put the Welker thing to bed and move on.



         Amen. But, you realize that because Welker landed in Denver with you know who, ESPN, NFL Network, and the rest of the sports media are going to keep stirring the pot on this...just as they did with spygate.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1naFstaP. Show 1naFstaP's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    I have been sitting back taking this whole departure in, listening to both sides of the stories and regardless who's at fault here, we will probably never know the real story, it's just a travesty it happened at all.   I think Welker will miss being a Patriot and catching passes from Brady.  And I think the Patriots will miss having Welker here and the production he brought to the offense.  In the end it was a lose/lose departure. 

    The Patriots vs Broncos game is going to be extra interesting now.  I'm not sure we see a Belichick/Kraft and Welker handshake before or after the game due to all this, and that is a shame.  Both meant a lot to each others careers.

     

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    My take is that the Pats really did want Welker, but they set his value low relative to other WRs with similar numbers.  That had to do with his position (slot), his age, and a belief that he wouldn't work so well in most other systems and therefore wouldn't be in terribly high demand.  The Pats were probably right about all those things, but the agent's job is to try to bargain to get Welker the most money possible.  Top receivers in 2011 were getting contracts that paid upwards of 8 million a year, with guaranteed money above $10 million.  The Pats seem to have had Welker pegged lower than that, though it's impossible to know exactly where because the stories are conflicting and I'm not sure how reliable much of the reporting has been.  The agent could have just "given in" to the Pats' offer, but that's not what he's supposed to do.  He's supposed to try to push them up.  It's hard, though, once a player is franchised, because then the player can't get other teams to bid.  Ultimately, the only leverage a player has in negotiations is being able to get multiple teams to bid for his services competitively.  The franchise tag pulls that leverage away from the player and sort of forces him to make a take it or leave it decision with his current team.  Welker and the agent clearly decided that playing for (an above market) 9.5 million in 2012 and then going back to market in 2013 gave Welker a better chance of getting more money than accepting whatever offer the Pats had on the table back in 2011 or early 2012, which would have delayed Welker's chance at free agency until 2014.  When they made that decision, there were two possibilities for 2013:

    1. The Pats could have tagged Welker again giving him upwards of 11 million in 2013. This was unlikely, but playing under the tag two years in a row would have been a financial win for Welker. 

    2. The Pats could refrain from tagging Welker, but then Welker would (finally) be free to shop his services with multiple teams.  The hope, I'm sure, was that he could land a two year deal worth about 8 million per year with a fairly large guaranteed amount.  At worst, I think they figured he'd get somewhere around $5 or $6 million for 2013, which, when combined with the 9.5 million he made in 2012, would probably be a comparable amount to what the Pats were offering him in 2011.  So from the agent's perspective, there wasn't much downside to refusing the Pats offer and playing under the tag, but there was potential upside.  This is why the agent and Welker made a good decision, not a bad one, in choosing the tag and leaving their options open in 2013.  As it is, they ended up getting an offer that wasn't nearly as good as they were hoping for, but doesn't seem to be much, if any, worse than what they would have had if they had accepted one of the Pats's earlier offers. 

    We do now seem to have a clearer picture of what the Pats last offer was.  It seems to be that it offered Welker a $4 million signing bonus, a $4 million salary this year, and a $2 million salary next year, plus $2 million in incentives for 2013 and $4 million in in incentives for next year.  Denver, meanwhile, gave Welker a $4 million signing bonus, a $2 million salary this year (all guaranteed) and a $6 million payment next year if they decide to keep him (guaranteed against injury this year and also fully guaranteed if they don't cut him before March 2014).  One of the curious things here is why Welker turned down an apparent $10 million in guarantees for only $6 million in full gurantees (plus another $6 million in partial guarantees) with Denver.  My take is that Welker and the agent were looking at what happens in 2014 (and completely discounting the incentives).  Under the Pats deal, Welker would earn $2 million more in 2013, but there is a real possibility he would earn only $2 million in 2014.  With the Denver deal, Welker would earn $2 million less in 2013, but would either earn $6 million in 2014 (a net $2 million gain over the two years) or have another chance at free agency and therefore another attempt to try to get a bigger deal for 2014.  If free agency in 2014 could net him at least $4  million for the year, he'd come out at least even with what the Pats had offered for 2013 and 2014 (again, discounting the incentives). If he got at least $6 million in a free agent deal in 2014, he'd come out at least even with what the Broncos were offering him for 2014.  Anything above $6 million in 2014 would be a win for Welker over both the Pats and the Broncos deals. 

    It's a lot of risk, of course, but it seems like Welker and his agent are playing the market aggressively partly because they know they are at a disadvantage given Welker's age.  They don't have a lot of time, and therefore seem to be trying to maximize the opportunities for Welker to get into free agency (and to get into it as early as possible) and have teams bid competitively for his services.  That's what their strategy seems to be doing.  It's quite possible Welker will not do well in the free agent market if he gets there in 2014 and could lose out, but there's no big reward without risk, and Welker and his agent seem willing to take the risks to try to maximize rewards.  Welker seems to be gambling with about $2 million dollars in guaranteed money.  That's what he could lose by this tactic, but he also has a reasonable chance to come out $2 million or more ahead.   Again, these numbers completely discount the incentives the Pats offered him, which Welker and his agent seem to think are too unlikely to be considered.  If you think those incentives are realistic, then Welker and his agent are gambling with a bit more money.  Personally, I think the incentives are pretty aggressive, though not completely impossible.  

     It's a risky strategy for Welker, but it's not necessarily a bad strategy--unless of course, you think Welker just wants to play for the Pats.  I think the Pats thought that and maybe lowballed him a little assuming he'd be content to accept a discount to stay with Brady.  Maybe, in the end, that lowballing left a bad taste in Welker's mouth and made him not want to play for the Pats afterall.  

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Kraft:

    reading between the lines of 2/$10 and Kraft saying Wes was going to make $8m in year #1, it sounds like the contract offer was;

    $6M signing bonus

    2013-$2M salary plus incentives

    2014-$2M salary plus incentives

    2013 and 2014 Cap hit each year $5m with out incentives

    Compared to Amendola yearly cap hit;

    2013 -- $3.5 million
    2014 -- $4.5 million
    2015 -- $5.5 million
    2016 -- $6.5 million
    2017 -- $7.5 million

    Does it seem a stretch even with the cap increase that the Pats incur a cap hit for Amendola of $5.5, $6.5 and $7.5?

     

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