Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    i like ben a lot but i am wondering what he had to do with that 100 yd pick 6 in the sb?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from cowtherabbit-. Show cowtherabbit-'s posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    Having a great defense really helps make a QB look better.If opposing offenses were allowed to capitalize on Ben's 2 INT's Thursday night or 15 INT's last year then Ben's success rate plummets.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbakilla. Show bubbakilla's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning! : Wow, McNabb over Rivers.  The same McNabb that was benched last year?  Hey, should throw Kerry Collins up there since winning titles seem to be what matters when ranking best QBs.  Didn't he when a championship with the NYG?  Can anyone say Quarterback ratings, yards, etc.  Lets  just lay it out on paper in order of championships. In that case, yes Brady is number one. Peyton and Collins would then be tied as best. 
    Posted by MustangGator[/QUOTE]Genius, if its close... all being close to equal, u go with the guy who wins and the guy with the rings! if not close, no... for example, robert horry has 7 rings. would anyone even say he's a NBA hall of famer? no! or put him amongst the best players ever? no! kerry collins is a winner but he stinks at all other relevant measurements when compared to the elites. so no, he doesnt count! if drew brees had a couple of rings, u could put him in the brady class and OVER manning. helck if brees had more rings or as many as brady, u could even put him ahead of brady! so look, its a combo pf talent, general high performance stats, winning in general and RINGS! also the intangibles like leadership (phil simms) and the talent around u. brady won 3 rings with very average at best wide receivers around him, with him as the focal point of the offense not a running game (well, perhaps in '04 with dillon it was a wash).. get my drift? peyton has always had the same offensive coordinator, HOF'rs in reggie wayne, harrison.. now a stud like gonzales, edgerrin james, addai, dallas clark... he's had an allstar team all around him with maximal stability yet was not able to win more than one ring... and even that one was a gift due to the pats lousy core of receivers...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbakilla. Show bubbakilla's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]This is a great thread. I think if you rate a QB on his ability to flat out win then Ben is second behind Brady no questions here. His winning percentage since 2004 is only second to Brady. If you rate statistics than he is not even in the top 10 but this is where it gets tricky. The Steelers are not a pass happy team, although lately their run game has been awful going back to last year. I also think Tomlin trusts Ben now to throw it 40 times a game like he did on Thursday and come up with the plays to win down the stretch. While he does hold on to the ball too long, he also makes great plays and is elusive as well so you take the good with the bad. With Troy out now for a few weeks, I think you will see the Steelers really open things up on offense as they will be forced to score more points to win.
    Posted by adonadio[/QUOTE]as of now, i would say that big ben is 1B. he is right in there with brady and manning. brady missed the entire year and hasnt won a ring in 4 full seasons. ben in the main time has won 2! when steels need him to throw, he usually can. when they need him to go and win the game, he generally can. he really has elevated has elevated his status and set a high bar by his performances in his last 2 games. give me a break with the kerry collins koolaid. is he really ever asked to go and wint he freakin game? he is a fumbling, turnover, low accuracy machine. yep, he does other things but a turnover is still a turnover. brady and manning hardly ever turn the ball over esp for as much as they throw. willinng to bet they are both in the top 3-5 ALL TIME in that area! manning has simply been too accurate and dominating as a passser and leader to quite put ben over him. if colts do not win and dominate early or this year, then ben will unquestionably surpass him (assumg the steels keep on winng and he stays healthy).  ultimately, it is still brady's and manning's titles to LOSE!.... but the gap is as small as it has ever been amongst these 3 WINNER guys. the big issue with ben is still the turnover issue. if he can cut that down a bit, keep winning,  with that great defense he could be #1 by the end of the year. heck, if either one of these guys gets a ring this year, they become the undisputed #1!!!!!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubbakilla. Show bubbakilla's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]Ben is a winner.  I could care less what his stats are and what his QB rating is.  He wins games period.  He has been a winner since he entered the league.  He's had what, one off year?  Some players just have the intangibles that make them real good.
    Posted by carawaydj[/QUOTE]and from what mcnulty is saying about him.... we know that he can aggressively attack that hole too! most QBs cant do that. they shy away from that contact!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from StrongArmHnz. Show StrongArmHnz's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    I would love to see Big Ben play in a weak division with a weak defense and bring his team to a Super Bowl. Drew Brees is much better than Big Ben. How can you compare the Saints to the Steelers, Use your IQ
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from clouts. Show clouts's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    Some of you are too funny.  Brady's success has blinded you to everyone else's.  Sure, Ben was bloody awful in his first SB.  Take a look at his stats in that game vs. Brady's stats in his first SB.  Now, take away Brady's final drive to win it that Ben didn't have.  They are virtually identical.  Of course, the two awful picks by Ben cannot be overlooked, but Brady's first SB was a rather ordinary effort.

    Ben threw two picks Thursday.  One was off a hail mary, so discount that.  I've posted it before, their stats are remarkeably similar over their careers (with Brady about 5-10% better across the board).  Where Brady distanced himself was in his last full year.  Ben will never put up those numbers. 

    I think Brees and Ben are 3a and 3b.  It's the old Montana/Marino debate.  IMO, Marino was a better QB, best I ever saw.  Montana won, and was huge when it counted.  I felt the same for a long time about Manning/Brady.  Manning was a better QB, Brady just won all the time.

    I'm perfectly happy with Ben back there.  He had SIX come from behind drives last year, and another in the SB.  I'll take it.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]Some of you are too funny.  Brady's success has blinded you to everyone else's.  Sure, Ben was bloody awful in his first SB.  Take a look at his stats in that game vs. Brady's stats in his first SB.  Now, take away Brady's final drive to win it that Ben didn't have.  They are virtually identical.  Of course, the two awful picks by Ben cannot be overlooked, but Brady's first SB was a rather ordinary effort. Ben threw two picks Thursday.  One was off a hail mary, so discount that.  I've posted it before, their stats are remarkeably similar over their careers (with Brady about 5-10% better across the board).  Where Brady distanced himself was in his last full year.  Ben will never put up those numbers.  I think Brees and Ben are 3a and 3b.  It's the old Montana/Marino debate.  IMO, Marino was a better QB, best I ever saw.  Montana won, and was huge when it counted.  I felt the same for a long time about Manning/Brady.  Manning was a better QB, Brady just won all the time. I'm perfectly happy with Ben back there.  He had SIX come from behind drives last year, and another in the SB.  I'll take it.
    Posted by clouts[/QUOTE]

    This is a brilliant comment, especially the part about taking away Brady's final drive in his first Super Bowl.  Why not go further and say take away 25 or so of Brady's touchdown passes in 2007 and he and Roethlisberger had pretty similar numbers that year.  Or how about take away one of Bady's Super Bowl wins and they have identical Super Bowl wins.  Or take away two of the three times the Patriots have beaten the Steeler in the playoffs, and the two teams have identical records against one another in the playoffs.  This one is even better: take away three of the Steelers' Lombardi trophies, and the two teams have the same number. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]Some of you are too funny.  Brady's success has blinded you to everyone else's.  Sure, Ben was bloody awful in his first SB.  Take a look at his stats in that game vs. Brady's stats in his first SB.  Now, take away Brady's final drive to win it that Ben didn't have.  They are virtually identical.  Of course, the two awful picks by Ben cannot be overlooked, but Brady's first SB was a rather ordinary effort. Ben threw two picks Thursday.  One was off a hail mary, so discount that.  I've posted it before, their stats are remarkeably similar over their careers (with Brady about 5-10% better across the board).  Where Brady distanced himself was in his last full year.  Ben will never put up those numbers.  I think Brees and Ben are 3a and 3b.  It's the old Montana/Marino debate.  IMO, Marino was a better QB, best I ever saw.  Montana won, and was huge when it counted.  I felt the same for a long time about Manning/Brady.  Manning was a better QB, Brady just won all the time. I'm perfectly happy with Ben back there.  He had SIX come from behind drives last year, and another in the SB.  I'll take it.
    Posted by clouts[/QUOTE]

    This is a brilliant comment, especially the part about taking away Brady's final drive in his first Super Bowl.  Why not go further and say take away 25 or so of Brady's touchdown passes in 2007 and he and Roethlisberger had pretty similar numbers that year.  Or how about take away one of Bady's Super Bowl wins and they have identical Super Bowl wins.  Or take away two of the three times the Patriots have beaten the Steeler in the playoffs, and the two teams have identical records against one another in the playoffs.  This one is even better: take away three of the Steelers' Lombardi trophies, and the two teams have the same number. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning! : This is a brilliant comment, especially the part about taking away Brady's final drive in his first Super Bowl.  Why not go further and say take away 25 or so of Brady's touchdown passes in 2007 and he and Roethlisberger had pretty similar numbers that year.  Or how about take away one of Bady's Super Bowl wins and they have identical Super Bowl wins.  Or take away two of the three times the Patriots have beaten the Steeler in the playoffs, and the two teams have identical records against one another in the playoffs.  This one is even better: take away three of the Steelers' Lombardi trophies, and the two teams have the same number. 
    Posted by newenglanderinexile[/QUOTE]


    I love this right here.

    This is hilarious.

    If the fact that statistics amassed against different opposition under different circumstances aren't meaningless enough already . . .  hey, let's just go ahead and ignore the ones that disprove our retarded take.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from clouts. Show clouts's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning! : This is a brilliant comment, especially the part about taking away Brady's final drive in his first Super Bowl.  Why not go further and say take away 25 or so of Brady's touchdown passes in 2007 and he and Roethlisberger had pretty similar numbers that year.  Or how about take away one of Bady's Super Bowl wins and they have identical Super Bowl wins.  Or take away two of the three times the Patriots have beaten the Steeler in the playoffs, and the two teams have identical records against one another in the playoffs.  This one is even better: take away three of the Steelers' Lombardi trophies, and the two teams have the same number. 
    Posted by newenglanderinexile[/QUOTE]

    OK, you got me.  That is not what I meant.  You can't take away this and that of the bad, then you have to do the same with the good.  The bottom line is that Ben only really completed a half-dozen worthy passes that game (one being the huge 3rd and 27 that set up their first touchdown).  He was horrible. 

    I think Brady was ho-hum until he was needed.  Ben wasn't needed to put together a game-winning drive.  Maybe he would've done what Brady did?  I doubt it, but we'll never know.

    So, without the final drive, here are their comparisons:

    Brady (24 years old) 11-20, 97 yds, 1TD, 0INT; 1R/3yds; 1 sack/7yds
    Roethlisberger (23 years old) 9-21, 123 yds, 0TD, 2INT; 7R/25 yds, 1TD; 1 sack/8yds

    They are comparable.  But, this isn't meant to be a Brady diss.  He is #1 IMO.  I think we forget that for much of that first Super Bowl, he didn't do a ton EXCEPT MAKE NO MISTAKES.  When called upon to win it, he did it.  And, rather easily it seemed, didn't it?

    I only make the comparison because too many people point to how awful Ben was in that first SB in declaring he's not a good QB. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnochRoot. Show EnochRoot's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning! : OK, you got me.  That is not what I meant.  You can't take away this and that of the bad, then you have to do the same with the good.  The bottom line is that Ben only really completed a half-dozen worthy passes that game (one being the huge 3rd and 27 that set up their first touchdown).  He was horrible.  I think Brady was ho-hum until he was needed.  Ben wasn't needed to put together a game-winning drive.  Maybe he would've done what Brady did?  I doubt it, but we'll never know. So, without the final drive, here are their comparisons: Brady (24 years old) 11-20, 97 yds, 1TD, 0INT; 1R/3yds; 1 sack/7yds Roethlisberger (23 years old) 9-21, 123 yds, 0TD, 2INT; 7R/25 yds, 1TD; 1 sack/8yds They are comparable.  But, this isn't meant to be a Brady diss.  He is #1 IMO.  I think we forget that for much of that first Super Bowl, he didn't do a ton EXCEPT MAKE NO MISTAKES.  When called upon to win it, he did it.  And, rather easily it seemed, didn't it? I only make the comparison because too many people point to how awful Ben was in that first SB in declaring he's not a good QB. 
    Posted by clouts[/QUOTE]

    I actually thought what you are writing now was the point you were making with taking out Brady's last drive - that in their first SBs, they weren't all that great with the exception of Brady's last drive. Not sure why people jumped all over you for that.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Irkillendem. Show Irkillendem's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    He's not bad, but to say he's better than Brees is stupid. Drew almost broke Marinos record last season with virtually no run game. I'd go Brady,Manning,Brees,Roethlisberger and McNabb as top 5. Rivers in sixth.

    basing this totally on stats and individual play not the team.  Ben is a good QB but he has a run game to rely on and a defense that gets off the field on third down.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    I like winners and I think Ben knows how to win.  Otherwise you end up in Carson Palmer land praising people for stats and "super arm" rather than how they win games. For that reason I'd put Ben in the top five, where he stacks with Brees and Rivers it's hard to say at this point, I think we need to see the careers play out more. Brady and Manning are at the top to me, though I have a preference for Brady in the pressure of the post-season. But I think they each need a few more years also for a more definitive verdict. The one thing that I find truly dumb is to waste time making an argument about Brady's play in the first super bowl that excludes his final drive. That's like saying Adam Vinatieri didn't have a good kicking game till he hit the game winning field goal. As John Madden said that day, "What Tom Brady just did gave me goosebumps." Watching that game winning drive, I knew I was watching greatness emerge and so did many other Pats fans. Luckily for us we were right!


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    The best way to judge an elite QB is by the amount of 25+ TD seasons he has and 20+ INT seasons he has. For every 20+ INT season it negates a 25+ TD season. I say that because an elite QB doesn't throw 15+ INTs. 

    Manning has the most, then Brady, then Brees, then Palmer, then McNabb. 

    That's my top 5.

    1 a&b) Brady and Manning (Brady 4 & Manning 7)
    3) Brees (4)
    4) Palmer (3)
    5) McNabb (2)


     
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    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    In Response to Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!:
    [QUOTE]tom brady  proved nothing more than that if you let a quarterback (any quarterback) stand in the pocket for a week and a half he will eventually find an open man.
    Posted by prairiemike[/QUOTE]

    Finally someone giving a reasonable explanation for brady's success.
     
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    Re: Last night Big Ben proved why he is the THIRD best QB (not Brees), behind brady and manning!

    If Brady had "a week and a half" in the pocket back in 07, then Ben has had a couple YEARS in half the games in 08! What both these guys excel at is escaping the rush. Tom does it with subtle movements, either stepping up or aside and making guys miss. Ben moves around a lot more, and with his size and strength he can make throws with defenders hanging all over him. Both are amongst the best at making it to their third and fourth reads. Peyton Manning is different, as he has had better WRs who could get open quickly, and he can get rid of the ball fast. If you go purely on stats (disregarding wins), you would have Manning, Brees, and Rivers at the top of the list, and neither Tom or Ben would make the top five (maybe Ben wouldn't make the top ten). But football being a team game you have to factor in the intangibles, IMO. When you consider things like leadership, winning, and clutch play, you have to put Tom and Ben right at the top. The Patriots, Colts, and Steelers have been the most consistently winning teams in the last decade. Of the eight Lombardis awarded since the turn of the century these three teams have six of them. Only once has the AFCCG not included at least one of them, in 02. And two of them have faced off for a SB berth four of the eight times. It takes a great QB leading a team to acheive this type of success. So while these guys may not be on top of the stats list, they should be on top of the all time great QBs list, IMO. Just like I'd take a guy like Bradshaw over a Marino, I'd take Ben over Brees or Rivers (or even Peyton, for that matter) any day of the week, especially on Sunday!
     

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