Mankins Expendible?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : You are right, as always.  But for the sake of disagreeing with you: 1) Wrong 2)  Sorry, I don't think so. 3) Yeah right. Response?
    Posted by themightypatriotz

     
    LOL.

    I hope PM spots this one, because I would nominate this for a post-y award. Haha.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    How important has Mankins been in protecting Brady's backside? The OL has done fairly well protecting Brady from sacks (although if memory serves me correctly, hurries have gone up in the past two seasons or so) - and there's always a question as to how well our offensive line does with opening holes for the running game (is it the OL or RB corp?).

    Koppen, Neal, Kaczur seems to be getting hurt more often in the past 2-3 years - which probably causes some problems w/ consistent performance.

     
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    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : I don't get this type of argument.  With guys like Wilfork, Mankins, Merriweather, Mayo, etc.  everyone on here says, "They are one of the best at their position.  They made the pro bowl in so many years and were DROY."  These are just generalizations.  The fact is all these players have major faults that have shown up on the field at crucial times.  They've all blown critical plays.  I'm not saying everyone on our team has to be perfect, I'm saying don't act like they are, and don't pay them mega millions if they aren't.
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    I didn't say he's perfect. No one is but if he had "major faults" as you say, he wouldn't be consistently named as a top-10 caliber NFL guard by reputable sources, in addition to being named an all-pro last year.

    Name a player who has never "blown a critical play". Not only that but how do you know whether if was Mankins who blew a play or if he were trying to cover  someone else's blown blocking assignment?

    You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you're being a bit too critical here. 
     
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    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    Every year there's usually at least one surprising cut or big name released and one player no one expected to make the team make it. I'm fully expecting this to happen again this year, and Mankins could be the one that's let go. I'll never try to guess though, because I'm usually wrong and one of my favorites are let go. I'm glad I couldn't see the look on my face when I read that Vrabel was traded...
    Posted by magicalhobo


    Not saying Mankins being cut its impossible but its highly unlikely IMHO. Apparently Vrabel was judged to be close to the end of the road which made him expendable. Personally, I think it was a mistake but that was the reasoning.

    Mankins however, is in his prime. Good NFL guards have become as hard to find as good left tackles. He is one of the best in the NFL and is without a doubt the Pats' best O-lineman, who's never missed a game as far as I can remember. If he goes whatever semblance of a running game they have goes with him.

    I'd be shocked if they let him go over money.  
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : I didn't say he's perfect. No one is but if he had "major faults" as you say, he wouldn't be consistently named as a top-10 caliber NFL guard by reputable sources, in addition to being named an all-pro last year. Name a player who has never "blown a critical play". Not only that but how do you know whether if was Mankins who blew a play or if he were trying to cover  someone else's blown blocking assignment? You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you're being a bit too critical here. 
    Posted by unclealfie


    I hear you, I'm just trying to keep it real.  I feel like there is a running theme on here that if we just had certain players and the right coaches, we'd be guaranteed to win a Super Bowl.  Mankins and Wilfork and Mayo (and Brady and Moss and Welker) may be among the best if not the best at their positions but they are still human and get beat when it matters most.  So no matter who we have on the roster there is no guarantee how well they will play on the big day and it almost always comes down to luck.

    I think this means we should spread the wealth and get lots of reliable, dependable guys at every spot rather than blow Kraft's money on a handful of superstars.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    I wouldn't be shocked if he did go. 

    New England has a history of not paying CBs and OL players. 

    It wasn't a shock when they paid Fork, because they have a history of paying front seven defenders.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : Isn't it about winning THIS year? If we keep on sayin' "NEXT YEAR", well....next thing ya know...it's just over.
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii


    The Pats have never had the attitude that we will sacrifice next year for this year. That's why we have been able to compete year after year. The guard position is really the least of their worries. 

    Teams that think this year only trade their picks to New England and break the bank on one or two players. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : The Pats have never had the attitude that we will sacrifice next year for this year. That's why we have been able to compete year after year. The guard position is really the least of their worries.  Teams that think this year only trade their picks to New England and break the bank on one or two players. 
    Posted by Macrawn



    I was just playin devil's advocate.  Yeah, it'd be nice to have Mankins back at a reasonable price. But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if he ends up elsewhere. Team chemistry is important - and having Mankins and Vollmer on one side of the line would be pretty interesting...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : I don't get this type of argument.  With guys like Wilfork, Mankins, Merriweather, Mayo, etc.  everyone on here says, "They are one of the best at their position.  They made the pro bowl in so many years and were DROY."  These are just generalizations.  The fact is all these players have major faults that have shown up on the field at crucial times.  They've all blown critical plays.  I'm not saying everyone on our team has to be perfect, I'm saying don't act like they are, and don't pay them mega millions if they aren't.
    Posted by themightypatriotz

    I agree except for Wilfork, he is pretty damn good.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    I don't think you should break the bank for him. Is he good? No doubt. I just don't think guards should be paid top dollar, money could be used elsewhere on a position that really effects the outcome of the game. To me guards are alot easier to replace than; left tackles, centers, pass rushers, qb's, running backs, corners or any position on the field realy.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdoggg. Show underdoggg's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    It is possible that we pay Mankins and pay Brady. Everyone keeps assuming that Brady is going to ask for Peyton Manning money and if he was a LOSER like Manning is he would hold us over the fire but I would bet my life that he takes a home town discount again and lets the Pats spread their money around. Thats just the type of person he is.
    Posted by MVPKilla2009


    LOL - He already has asked for and received Peyton Manning money.  funny thing is, here in Indy we call it Tom Brady-Bundeschen Money.
     
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    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : The Pats have never had the attitude that we will sacrifice next year for this year. That's why we have been able to compete year after year. The guard position is really the least of their worries.  Teams that think this year only trade their picks to New England and break the bank on one or two players. 
    Posted by Macrawn


    I actually kind of think that is exactly the philosophy them employed with their FA pickups in 07. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    I don't think you should break the bank for him. Is he good? No doubt. I just don't think guards should be paid top dollar, money could be used elsewhere on a position that really effects the outcome of the game. To me guards are alot easier to replace than; left tackles, centers, pass rushers, qb's, running backs, corners or any position on the field realy.
    Posted by mthurl


    Well, we sure haven't "paid" to improve our pass rush problem :)
    I just figure it'd be nice for Mankins and Vollmer to develop some chemistry on that left side....bowl some guys over to help our rush game. It becomes harder to do that without talented players...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Responding to some of the points that were posted...

    Bold for TLDR.

    • Light's strength is his run blocking. His weakness has been speed rushers. Moving him to LG would not only keep him on the left side (that's of great significance, according to BB), but will avoid that one nemisis throughout his career. Vollmer is a natural (little or none football experience despite coming into the college ranks and dominating C-USA. His rookie season at LT was so impressive Vollmer is most likely to become the best player from the Pats' '09 draft.
    • Guards aren't hard to find. In college, the most talented and physically/athletically gifted OL moved to tackle. Those that can snap and block adequately, move to center. The rest move to guard. Mankins played LT at Fresno St. One of BB draft strats: draft tackles not pure guards. If a guard fails, then it's N.F.L. for him.
    • Don't judge an O-line by the number of sacks allowed. Brady's low sack totals, over the years, are attributed to his superior pocket presence and quick release. In truth, Brady has taken a significant beating since SB42. This is why we have sabermetrics in sports.
    • Mankins won't leave unless there is a team out there who wants to trade for him. Such a team would have to lock him up for an extension. That's becoming more unlikley to happen as camp approaches.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : I agree except for Wilfork, he is pretty damn good.
    Posted by mthurl


    Wilfork got pancaked by a single blocker on the Colts' game winning TD run in the 2006 AFC championship.  Addai or Rhodes or whoever ran right through the spot where Wilfork lined up.  That 80 yard Ravens TD run to open the game in January - the guy ran right through the spot where Wilfork lined up while Wilfork was getting pancaked by a single blocker.
     
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    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : Wilfork got pancaked by a single blocker on the Colts' game winning TD run in the 2006 AFC championship.  Addai or Rhodes or whoever ran right through the spot where Wilfork lined up.  That 80 yard Ravens TD run to open the game in January - the guy ran right through the spot where Wilfork lined up while Wilfork was getting pancaked by a single blocker.
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    In 06 the defense was gased and on the field too much in the second half. If I remember that play they almost looked like they let them score so the offense would have enough time to try to make a comeback. The Ravens game this year he was coming off an ankle injury that kept him out three games prior to that.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : In 06 the defense was gased and on the field too much in the second half. If I remember that play they almost looked like they let them score so the offense would have enough time to try to make a comeback. The Ravens game this year he was coming off an ankle injury that kept him out three games prior to that.
    Posted by mthurl


    They were up by 3 and it was 3rd down.  Letting the Colts score in that situation makes no sense.

    We can make excuses for our favorite players all we want but the fact is Wilfork got beat fair and square on those two plays and on many others.  There are no invincible players and there's nothing the team can do in the offseason that will guarantee anything in the season.  Just enjoy the ride.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : Light can not play RT - BB all but said so. So it could be Crump, Light and Mankins on the left, and Gronk, Vollmer and Neal (if he stays healthy) on the right. Neither side would be outstanding, but both would be very good - we could run on either side - keep it more unpredictable. Of course there is still Koppen getting stood up in the middle. I think Crump and a Koppen replacment (Ohrnberger) would help our running game the most. It all starts in the trenches.
    Posted by One-If-By-Sea


    Didn't say he could. I only suggested moving him to LG in case Mankins becomes insane. If he returns, Vollmer will have to move to RT, if he can. I can't stand Kaczur. I'm guessing the team was hoping to deal Mankins, but no one was buying.



     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188. Show Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Originally Published: August 6, 2008

    Why The Left Tackle Is Overrated

    Everyone knows the left tackle is the most important position on the offensive line, right? The stats say no, writes KC Joyner.

    JoynerBy KC Joyner
    ESPN Insider
    Archive

    Many of you probably are familiar with Michael Lewis' book "The Blind Side." It recounts a young player's struggles to adapt to his new environment. From a football perspective, Lewis paints a compelling picture of how valuable the left tackle is to NFL teams.

     

    As excellent as Lewis' research was, after reading the book, I still had some doubt as to the real value of the left tackle. I understood how much it meant to Bill Walsh to have someone capable of blocking Lawrence Taylor. I also had a better understanding of why left tackles are paid so much. But I still didn't have a good sense of how much more valuable a left tackle is than, say, a right guard.

     

    So, what is the real value of the left tackle? I dedicated the lead chapter of my new book, "Blindsided: Why the Left Tackle is Overrated and Other Contrarian Football Thoughts," to that very subject. In the book, I detailed both run and pass blocking analyses, but for the sake of brevity, I can summarize the run blocking portion by saying the metrics show left tackles by themselves don't have a significant effect on the running game.

     

    That really isn't surprising, and it isn't the reason posited by Lewis as to why left tackles are paid a premium. Their perceived value is in the passing game, so I looked at the effect left tackles have by using pass blocking metrics derived from "Scientific Football 2006." Since I have the updated 2007 pass blocking metrics for "Scientific Football 2008," I thought it would be interesting to pair some of the comparative methods used in "Blindsided" with this past year's totals.

     

    The starting point was looking at how many total sacks each team allowed and how many sacks the left tackle(s) on those teams allowed. Here are the 2007 totals in those categories.

     

     

     

    RankTeamSacks AllowedLeft Tackle Sacks Allowed
    1.Saints163
    2.Bengals175.5
    T3.Browns192
    T3.Packers194
    5.Patriots215.5
    6.Texans228
    7.Colts235.5
    T8.Cardinals241.5
    T8.Chargers248.5
    10.Cowboys251
    11.Buffalo265
    12.Giants2812.5
    13.Redskins296
    14.Titans304.5
    15.Jaguars316.5
    16.Broncos323.5
    17.Panthers338.5
    T18.Bucs364
    T18.Seahawks365.5
    20.Vikings387
    21.Ravens392
    22.Raiders4110
    23.Dolphins423
    24.Bears438
    T25.Falcons474.5
    T25.Steelers479
    27.Rams482.5
    28.Eagles4910
    29.Jets538.5
    30.Lions5414
    T31.49ers5510.5
    T31.Chiefs559.5

     

     

     

    The rank column is important for reasons I will explain in just a moment, so please keep it in the back of your mind.

     

    The next step was to look at the percentage of team sacks each left tackle gave up. The goal was to see which left tackles were weak pass-blockers in comparison with the rest of their team's offensive line.

     

    The interesting part of the review came when I resorted the charts by the left tackle sack percentage but left the original team sack total rankings in place (the rankings I mentioned a couple of lines back). Here's what the chart looks like when resorted.

     

     

     

    RankTeamSacks AllowedLT Sacks AllowedLT % Of Total Sacks
    10.Cowboys2514.0%
    21.Ravens3925.1%
    27.Rams482.55.2%
    T8.Cardinals241.56.3%
    23.Dolphins4237.1%
    T25.Falcons474.59.6%
    T3.Browns19210.5%
    16.Broncos323.510.9%
    T18.Bucs36411.1%
    14.Titans304.515.0%
    T18.Seahawks365.515.3%
    29.Jets538.516.0%
    T31.Chiefs559.517.3%
    20.Vikings38718.4%
    24.Bears43818.6%
    1.Saints16318.8%
    T31.49ers5510.519.1%
    T25.Steelers47919.1%
    11.Bills26519.2%
    28.Eagles491020.4%
    13.Redskins29620.7%
    15.Jaguars316.521.0%
    T3.Packers19421.1%
    7.Colts235.523.9%
    22.Raiders411024.4%
    17.Panthers338.525.8%
    30.Lions541425.9%
    5.Patriots215.526.2%
    2.Bengals175.532.4%
    T8.Chargers248.535.4%
    6.Texans22836.4%
    12.Giants2812.544.6%

     

     

     

    This shows that many teams with bad pass blocking lines have very good left tackles, or they at least have left tackles who give up few sacks relative to the rest of the offensive line. For example: Miami, Baltimore and St. Louis all finished 21st or worst in overall sacks and allowed a combined 129 sacks, yet their left tackles were responsible for only 7.5 of those sacks.

     

    There also is an interesting trend for some of the teams near the bottom of the list. Cincinnati, San Diego and Houston all finished in the top eight in sacks allowed, having given up only 63 sacks among them. That means that in general, their players were good pass-blockers. However, their left tackles struggled mightily, giving up 22 of those 63 sacks.

     

    The conclusion I came to in "Blindsided" is that this occurs because defenses choose the path of shortest distance as often as possible when pass rushing. If the offense has a pass blocking weakness at any of the guard or center positions, the defense's plan always will be to target those players first because that is the quickest route to the quarterback. That's what happened in the cases of the Dolphins, Ravens and Rams.

     

    When the up-the-middle option is not available because of good interior blocking, defenses then target the next-fastest route, which typically is around the left tackle. The Bengals, Chargers and Texans all had solid blocking up the middle, and that is why their left tackles were tested.

     

    That latter example is the only case in which a really good pass-blocking left tackle helps, but it still doesn't take an elite left tackle to win the Super Bowl. For proof of this, just look at the Giants and their left tackle last year, David Diehl. He gave up 12.5 sacks, the second-most by any left tackle, and New York still was able to go all the way.

     

     

     

    KC Joyner, aka the Football Scientist, is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. His core coverage metrics for all skill-position players and cornerbacks are available in the ESPN Fantasy Football Magazine. His new book "Blindsided: Why The Left Tackle is Overrated and Other Contrarian Football Thoughts," is available in bookstores and on Amazon.com. For more information, check out KC's Web site, www.thefootballscientist.com.

     
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    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In other words, Mankins is important.

    He not only performs, but he also brings a mean streak and an attitude to our offensive line.  If you watch him regularly instead of just when he messes up, you'll notice that he's always pushing guys after the whistle and finishing off his blocks in the run game.  Same goes for Neal.

    I say do what you can to keep Mankins.  You might find a guy who performs as well on a regular basis (doubtful), but you won't find many guys who bring Mankins' attitude to the table.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    i also like mankins demeanor...but I say the pats are probaly offering 3.5 and will go as high as 5 in the end...hoprfully thats enough...

     

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