McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    Champ . . . tell me where in each drive they should have called a run instead of a pass.  You can't make an argument simply by saying 17 runs is too little. You've got to look drive by drive and say here is where they made mistakes. 

    The reality (for those who want to see it) is in the Super Bowl and all year, their most effective drives have been the hurry-up drives, where they are mostly in the shotgun and running a spread offense, throwing mostly, but periodically mixing in runs to keep the D off balance.  In the Super Bowl, their two touchdown drives were these types of drives, as was their second to last drive which was going well until it unfortunately stalled out (in part because of the -1 yard carry on first down by BJGE as well as the incompletions to Welker and Branch).  

    I agree that our offense is one-dimensional.  But the play calling is the result of the talent we have--it consists of two TEs, two slot receivers, and a bunch of JAGs.  Because of this, our success or failure relies on our ability to complete passes in the short part of the field.  When a defense can't stop those short passes, the offense is great.  When it can, the offense stalls.  I fully belive that if the talent were less one-dimensional, then the play calling would also be less one-dimensional.  BB has certainly never been a slave to one type of game plan.  He's certainly not afraid to run the ball.  But you seem to think the problem is all scheme and play calling.  This is indeed insinuating that BB is a failure.  If we are losing games because of scheme and playcalling, BB is a failure. I disagree.  I think there's a much more likely reason for the losses: and it's the fact that our talent in the skill positions is limited to a QB, two TEs, and one (or maybe two if you include Branch) slot receivers.  After that, everyone is in the lower half of NFL talent and not consistently effective enough to play big roles in the game plans.   

    Now, if you want to say my eyes are closed, fine.  But why not try to open them by telling me exactly where the Pats should have run instead of passing? You've got the drive charts . . . go through them and tell us where the calls weren't right. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

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    [QUOTE]Champ . . . tell me where in each drive they should have called a run instead of a pass.  You can't make an argument simply by saying 17 runs is too little. You've got to look drive by drive and say here is where they made mistakes.  The reality (for those who want to see it) is in the Super Bowl and all year, their most effective drives have been the hurry-up drives, where they are mostly in the shotgun and running a spread offense, throwing mostly, but periodically mixing in runs to keep the D off balance.  In the Super Bowl, their two touchdown drives were these types of drives, as was their second to last drive which was going well until it unfortunately stalled out (in part because of the -1 yard carry on first down by BJGE as well as the incompletions to Welker and Branch).   I agree that our offense is one-dimensional.  But the play calling is the result of the talent we have--it consists of two TEs, two slot receivers, and a bunch of JAGs.  Because of this, our success or failure relies on our ability to complete passes in the short part of the field.  When a defense can't stop those short passes, the offense is great.  When it can, the offense stalls.  I fully belive that if the talent were less one-dimensional, then the play calling would also be less one-dimensional.  BB has certainly never been a slave to one type of game plan.  He's certainly not afraid to run the ball.  But you seem to think the problem is all scheme and play calling.  This is indeed insinuating that BB is a failure.  If we are losing games because of scheme and playcalling, BB is a failure. I disagree.  I think there's a much more likely reason for the losses: and it's the fact that our talent in the skill positions is limited to a QB, two TEs, and one (or maybe two if you include Branch) slot receivers.  After that, everyone is in the lower half of NFL talent and not consistently effective enough to play big roles in the game plans.    Now, if you want to say my eyes are closed, fine.  But why not try to open them by telling me exactly where the Pats should have run instead of passing? You've got the drive charts . . . go through them and tell us where the calls weren't right. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    Pro, you are 100% correct. The only time NE has run effectively with BJGE is when the defense expecting them to pass. Almost to a tee, whenever they need, really need, to run with him, they stall out. Not, he got a good run when they were cruising in the 3rd quarter, but when they need to convert a huge 3rd down late in a game, or run some clock. H3ck, the best clock killing drive they came up with this season, they were running Woodhead out of shotgun. I mean, we are talking about a team that features its 35 year old QB as its best power/short distance runner. Insane, that Benny/Woody can't be relied upon enough to get short yardage to prevent them from jamming their franchise QB into a pile of bodies to convert. 

    This always starts by choosing passes that didn't work ... check. Then ignoring the runs that didn't work ... check. 

    The bottom line is if you say "it was about execution" people have nothing to talk about on a forum. If you say, "it's strategic" they can second guess and have a warm fuzzy feeling that they know how to run a team or offense. 

    Ultimately, although I have few complaints about the playcalling, outside of the max protect route on the first play. But if anything, they probably ran too much late in the game, at least if you listen to Perry Fewell, the Giants' defensive coordinator who was "shocked" they left the hurry-up spread that, by his own admission, the Giants "had no answer for."

    I see clearly that NE thought they were going to run clock, but they simply don't have the personell to run clock late in games against good defenses. NE can't get consecutive first downs just running the ball. And they always get stuck in second and longs and third and longs. 

    They should have just stayed "all in" and tried to get one more score instead of playing to "not lose" and by doing so, playing on their offensive weak point, running when the defense knows they want to run.

    I agree NE needs a better run game. They had the second best OL in blocked yardage, but were the only team in the top tep OL that had running backs that actually gained less effective yardage than their O-line. The conclusion is what you, I, most critics see with their eyes: what little success NE has had with their JAG running backs has come from the passing game opening it up.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : So you do think the offense was more of a problem? Less then 5% have won and we have scored 17 or less twice against the same team, oh btw with a 90 - 35 PASS TO RUN RATIO IN BOTH SB'S LOSSES COMBINED .....A one dimensional offense can't win a SB. Run the Ball coach PLEASE.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    This thread has devolved into a joke, it's the same rehashed hypothetical by people who can't admit for a second that they might be wrong. Every one of them has used the can't "Pats can't run" argument but Ridely and Benny can surely run, especially against a 4/3 defense, simply put 3 receivers on the field, single back set and spread them out, if we can't run than that means Brady is already carving them up.  

    The reason your argument fails folks is because we've seen the results of a balanced offense by winning 3 championship rings.  We've been the team running the ball, controlling the time of possession, we've been that team.  

    Consider this, and if still you don't grasp the idea, try standing uphill into a strong wind and peeing into it and telling me "with just the right execution this might work."  

    Tastes salty doesn't it?


     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : This thread has devolved into a joke, it's the same rehashed hypothetical by people who can't admit for a second that they might be wrong. Every one of them has used the can't "Pats can't run" argument but Ridely and Benny can surely run, especially against a 4/3 defense, simply put 3 receivers on the field, single back set and spread them out, if we can't run than that means Brady is already carving them up.   The reason your argument fails folks is because we've seen the results of a balanced offense by winning 3 championship rings.  We've been the team running the ball, controlling the time of possession, we've been that team.   Consider this, and if still you don't grasp the idea, try standing uphill into a strong wind and peeing into it and telling me "with just the right execution this might work."   Tastes salty doesn't it?
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]


    This is pretty clueless even for you.

    We didn't have a D folding in the last minute to lose the championship with jack time left for the O to pull it out back in those days.

    It doesn't have a mother f'n thing to do with the run.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    for the last drive obviously was on the defense, but the game was really lost on the welker drop....and not scoring AT ALL during the last 26 minutes of a game isnt a good recipe to win any game
     
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    [QUOTE]for the last drive obviously was on the defense, but the game was really lost on the welker drop....and not scoring AT ALL during the last 26 minutes of a game isnt a good recipe to win any game
    Posted by redsoxfan94[/QUOTE]

    It's called the moment of truth. The final one is the poignant one.

    You can chase your tail all day talking about dropped passes and fumbles not recovered.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : It's called the moment of truth. The final one is the poignant one. You can chase your tail all day talking about dropped passes and fumbles not recovered.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    yea and in the moment of the truth, the offense failed and left a gased defense hung out to dry.....if you saw they look on wilfork and ellis' faces after the drop, they knew they couldnt stop the giants again, they were worn out from saving the offenses butt the whole second half
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : yea and in the moment of the truth, the offense failed and left a gased defense hung out to dry.....if you saw they look on wilfork and ellis' faces after the drop, they knew they couldnt stop the giants again, they were worn out from saving the offenses butt the whole second half
    Posted by redsoxfan94[/QUOTE]

    Yep.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    and not scoring AT ALL during the last 26 minutes of a game isnt a good recipe to win any game


    You do realize the the Jints had the ball for nearly 20 of those 26 minutes, right?
    When you look at it that way, it's a little more difficult to score in 6+ minutes because that's all they had.
    The jints shortest drive was the one they let them score on to get the ball back.  That's sad.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

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    [QUOTE]and not scoring AT ALL during the last 26 minutes of a game isnt a good recipe to win any game You do realize the the Jints had the ball for nearly 20 of those 26 minutes, right? When you look at it that way, it's a little more difficult to score in 6+ minutes because that's all they had. The jints shortest drive was the one they let them score on to get the ball back.  That's sad.
    Posted by pezz4pats[/QUOTE]

    well obviously the drives were short, one was ended abruptly by the brady heave int....they would have had the ball longer if they could get past mid field....the time they did in the 2nd half, welker dropped the arguable game winning catch
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : well obviously the drives were short, one was ended abruptly by the brady heave int....they would have had the ball longer if they could get past mid field....the time they did in the 2nd half, welker dropped the arguable game winning catch
    Posted by redsoxfan94[/QUOTE]

    Yes the int and dropped passes killed all the drives but that didn't change the  fact that the D couldn't get the ball back to create more offensive possessions and more than 57 secs for their last drive. One extra minute on that last drive probably would have made all the difference in the world.  They could have dictated pace instead of hurrying.  Don't you think? 
    No way of knowing if they would have scored or not but pretty sure their chances would have been better.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : Yes the int and dropped passes killed all the drives but that didn't change the  fact that the D couldn't get the ball back to create more offensive possessions and more than 57 secs for their last drive. One extra minute on that last drive probably would have made all the difference in the world.  They could have dictated pace instead of hurrying.  Don't you think?  No way of knowing if they would have scored or not but pretty sure their chances would have been better.
    Posted by pezz4pats[/QUOTE]

    yes their chances would have been higher...but they lived by the offense all year and it failed them when it mattered....if you were to tell anyone here before the game that the offense wouldnt score at all during the final 22 minutes of the game and still be in position to put the game away with 4 minutes left, they would think you were crazy

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    The defense played as advertised, the offense did not.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

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    In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : This is pretty clueless even for you. We didn't have a D folding in the last minute to lose the championship with jack time left for the O to pull it out back in those days. It doesn't have a mother f'n thing to do with the run.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    d did not fold at the last minute? what are you even talking about?

    against rams, the d broke and gave up the tying td+pat, leaving 1:30 on the clock. pats o drive down and got the winning fg

    against the panthers, the pats d could not stop the panthers in the fourth, broke and gave up the tying td+pat with one minute remaining. kasay kicked the kickoff ob, gifting the pats o with a short field.

    in each of those sbs the o was clutch enough to score enough to win it on the last drive. no none of those Ds closed the game

    phi had enough time to win. mcnabb choked and forgot to manage the clock. i remember jumping for joy early because phi was foolishly killing the clock.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

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    [QUOTE]The defense played as advertised, the offense did not.
    Posted by digger0862[/QUOTE]


    How exactly was the offense advertised to play with Gronk hobbled?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

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    [QUOTE]How exactly was the offense advertised to play with Gronk hobbled?
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
    Gronk was wide open on the interception. Wes dropped a catchable ball. The offense had enough to get the job done. The defense didn't get the job done either but did you expect them too?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : yea and in the moment of the truth, the offense failed and left a gased defense hung out to dry.....if you saw they look on wilfork and ellis' faces after the drop, they knew they couldnt stop the giants again, they were worn out from saving the offenses butt the whole second half
    Posted by redsoxfan94[/QUOTE]


    Awww, were dey tiowd? Maybe dey woulda do betta wit a wittle nappy. I see. I( sowwy, dey excused.


    How many points was the O supposed to score with Gronk hurt? 30? 40?

    Were they tired in the Colts AFCC game, the previous Giants' SB or the ravens game this year too?



    The moment of truth was when the Giants got the ball and were losing the game but marched down the field to win it against that D.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the D stopped the Giants without scoring we would have won, right?





     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

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    [QUOTE]The defense played as advertised, the offense did not.
    Posted by digger0862[/QUOTE]

    Or........the offense did not play as advertised because the defense did. LOL
    Do you know that in the 3 losses to the giants and the loss to the Steelers, the Pats grossly lost in time of possession.  All low scoring, low possession games......Amazing isn't it?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : Gronk was wide open on the interception. Wes dropped a catchable ball. The offense had enough to get the job done. The defense didn't get the job done either but did you expect them too?
    Posted by digger0862[/QUOTE]

    So by your reasoning Ocho had a better game than Welker because we didn't expect anything from him, right?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Brady have to magically escape a sack to even get that throw off to Gronk?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : Or........the offense did not play as advertised because the defense did. LOL Do you know that in the 3 losses to the giants and the loss to the Steelers, the Pats grossly lost in time of possession.  All low scoring, low possession games......Amazing isn't it?
    Posted by pezz4pats[/QUOTE]


    And all 3 losses to the Giants featured a D FAIl at the end where a stop would have won the game, PERIOD.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

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    [QUOTE]and not scoring AT ALL during the last 26 minutes of a game isnt a good recipe to win any game You do realize the the Jints had the ball for nearly 20 of those 26 minutes, right? When you look at it that way, it's a little more difficult to score in 6+ minutes because that's all they had. The jints shortest drive was the one they let them score on to get the ball back.  That's sad.
    Posted by pezz4pats[/QUOTE]

    YES!!! they held the ball for 6+ mins of the last 26. isn't that what happens the o could not hold on to the ball? first two possessions after their last td...
    0:31
    1:18

    two chances to gain minutes. two chances to put the nail on the coffin, squandered. 

    even after those two unproductive possessions, the d kept the lead for a third chance to extend the lead and close the game. the rest is history.



     
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    In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : Awww, were dey tiowd? Maybe dey woulda do betta wit a wittle nappy. I see. I( sowwy, dey excused. How many points was the O supposed to score with Gronk hurt? 30? 40? Were they tired in the Colts AFCC game, the previous Giants' SB or the ravens game this year too? The moment of truth was when the Giants got the ball and were losing the game but marched down the field to win it against that D. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the D stopped the Giants without scoring we would have won, right?
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    scoring 17 is low for any team, especially since it was really only 15 + for the defense since they have up the safety....defense played well enough to win, the offense did not....now i get your love for brady, he is one of the best ever, but that doesnt mean he can do no wrong....he went 7 for 18 late in the game while eli was clutch at the end, that was the difference....im sure the defense made him lob that int to that substitute teacher right? and it also made welker and hernandez suddenly have stone hands in the 4th quarter right?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....

    In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : Awww, were dey tiowd? Maybe dey woulda do betta wit a wittle nappy. I see. I( sowwy, dey excused. How many points was the O supposed to score with Gronk hurt? 30? 40?..
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]


    how about 24?
    it's still 11 points below they reg season average.

    with a healthy gronk, i would have expected them to score 28-31 - still more than a fg below their reg season avg.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : YES!!! they held the ball for 6+ mins of the last 26. isn't that what happens the o could not hold on to the ball? first two possessions after their last td... 0:31 1:18 two chances to gain minutes. two chances to put the nail on the coffin, squandered.  even after those two unproductive possessions, the d kept the lead for a third chance to extend the lead and close the game. the rest is history.
    Posted by seattlepat70[/QUOTE]

    True or False?

    The D could have won the game by stopping the Giants on their last drive but let them score the winning points instead.



    Of course this is no big surprise. They have been doing exactly this for years and years. If the D could get stops at the end we would likely have 3 more Lombardi's.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: McGinnest said on ESPN Podcast today with Adam Jones that.... : YES!!! they held the ball for 6+ mins of the last 26. isn't that what happens the o could not hold on to the ball? first two possessions after their last td... 0:31 1:18 two chances to gain minutes. two chances to put the nail on the coffin, squandered.  even after those two unproductive possessions, the d kept the lead for a third chance to extend the lead and close the game. the rest is history.
    Posted by seattlepat70[/QUOTE]

    EXACTLY

    people need to take their blinders off and realize scoring 17 points against anyone isnt going to win many games....they had plenty of chances and they blew it....how can you expect a defense to consistently make stops when they are only getting one minute of rest when their offense is on the field? defense played pretty good considering how scrutinized they were during the season....19 points to a high caliber offense like the giants is impressive
     
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