Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    It's hard for me to think of someone who's Ptriots opinion/sources I trust and respect more than Holley. He has been around the team in varying degrees (some closer than any other reprter I'm aware of) for over a decade. He made calls, gathered info, and waited until he gathered enough to feel like he could weigh in heavily on the subject.

    According to him and his sources, Welker's agents basically said that whatever the offer was going to be, 2011 (franchise tag 9.5) + 2012 and beyond else has to add up to AT LEAST 20 million guaranteed, and start there. For instance, they were saying he wouldn't have worked for a single year at anything less than the 11.5 the second year Franchise would have brought, and at least 11.5 would have to have been guaranteed in ANY offer for them to consider it.

    Welker's agents absolutely, and TOTALLY misread the situation, and are trying to keep from looking as bad as they are.

    Additionally, in any previous negotiation that went bad, regardless of what was said...I've never heard Kraft be so outspoken. That led me to believe either he was telling the truth and flat out pizzed at what was being said...or he's had a fundamental change in his behavior that hasn't been seen before.

    Agents are bad for sports. They are akin to ambulance-chasing, sleazeball lawyers. 99% of the contracts they "get" for their clients, could be gotten by the player themselves, most every-day sports fans, and probably most service animals as well.

    Good luck to Welker. I was ok with him going elsewhere, I was ok with him not coming back last year...but that's just me. The agents? They can burn.

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     

    It's hard for me to think of someone who's Ptriots opinion/sources I trust and respect more than Holley. He has been around the team in varying degrees (some closer than any other reprter I'm aware of) for over a decade. He made calls, gathered info, and waited until he gathered enough to feel like he could weigh in heavily on the subject.

    According to him and his sources, Welker's agents basically said that whatever the offer was going to be, 2011 (franchise tag 9.5) + 2012 and beyond else has to add up to AT LEAST 20 million guaranteed, and start there. For instance, they were saying he wouldn't have worked for a single year at anything less than the 11.5 the second year Franchise would have brought, and at least 11.5 would have to have been guaranteed in ANY offer for them to consider it.

    Welker's agents absolutely, and TOTALLY misread the situation, and are trying to keep from looking as bad as they are.

    Additionally, in any previous negotiation that went bad, regardless of what was said...I've never heard Kraft be so outspoken. That led me to believe either he was telling the truth and flat out pizzed at what was being said...or he's had a fundamental change in his behavior that hasn't been seen before.

    Agents are bad for sports. They are akin to ambulance-chasing, sleazeball lawyers. 99% of the contracts they "get" for their clients, could be gotten by the player themselves, most every-day sports fans, and probably most service animals as well.

    Good luck to Welker. I was ok with him going elsewhere, I was ok with him not coming back last year...but that's just me. The agents? They can burn.

     



    Holley has a direct line into that front office as we know as does Reiss. To some degree Curran and Perillo.

     

    The word thay was reported was that Welker wanted 10+ mil money like a #1 WR. BB called his bluff and it's absolutley agent;s fault. Wes can blame the agent.

    He was never, ever gonig to get Calvin Johnson money here or anywhere.




    That's what I also believe. I thnk the agents lied to Welker, and said "they don't want you, we should consider other options." Welker trusted his agent, and took less money to play for a contender as opposed to TEN. He went somewhere he was obviously wanted, and I'm sure appreciated the coronation.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    ...and as we all are hearing from the agent, it is the Patriot's fault.  You'd think the agent would still have a job if he admitted to Welker he screwed up and may not have told him the full story about the negotiations?  WW's agent was, IMHO, counting FULLY on the relationship WW has with TB to move the Pats to keep Welker.  Talk about a misfire!

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    The market rate for Welker is about what he is getting in Denver. Yeh, I guess his agent got it wrong, why Wes does not see it shows me he is in denial.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    It's not popular to defend agents (they, like lawyers, are easy targets), but players need them because few players have the skills to do deals like this.  Even if the player has the smarts, there's no way he has the experience, and doing deals successfully takes a lot of knowledge and practice. So agents play a valuable role, like it or not.  

    On the Welker situation, the agent actually did a reasonably good job, regardless of what fans and sportswriters (most of whom have never negotiated anything) are saying. 

    Here are some things to think about. 

    • In 2011, the Pats' best offer to Welker is rumoured to have been 16 million guaranteed for 2012 and 2013. 
    • A lot of people think it was a mistake that Welker and his agent turned that down. 
    • However, we also have heard that the Pats offer this month would have given Welker $8 million guaranteed in 2013, with incentives possibly bringing it up to $10 million in 2013.
    • Had Welker and his agent agreed to the 16 million offer, that's what Welker would have made in 2012 and 2013. 
    • As it is, Welker and his agent turned down that offer, and Welker made $9.5 in 2012.  If Welker had taken the Pats' latest offer, he would have made $8-$10 million in 2013. That means his total earnings for 2012 and 2013 would have been at least 17.5 million and maybe as much as $19.5 million. Turning down the two-year 16 million offer and playing under that tag was therefore a good choice, not a bad one. Welker, if he had decided to sign the Pats most recent offer, would have come out 1.5 to 3.5 million ahead of where he would have been for the years 2012 and 2013  had he signed the Pats earlier 2-yr 16 million deal.  Smart decision by Welker and his agent to turn down the earlier 2-yr deal, accept the franchise tag, and hit free agency in 2013.  
    • As far as turning down the Pats most recent offer, that's a bit trickier.  But here's why Welker and his agent made the decision they did:
    1. The Pats offer (at least if the reports are correct) gave Welker  $8 million in guaranteed money in 2013, plus $2 million in guaranteed money in 2014.  It also offered $2 million in incentives in 2013 and $4 million in 2014.  Welker and his agent discounted the incentives because they felt they were longshots.  So they made their decision based on guaranteed money alone. 
    2. Denver's deal gives Welker $6 million in 2013 fully guaranteed and $6 million in 2014 guaranteed against injury now, but not fully guaranteed unless Welker makes the roster in 2014
    3. On the surface it might seem dumb for Welker to turn down a guaranteed $10 million from the Pats and instead take a guaranteed $6 million from the Broncos.  Why would he do this?
    4. The answer is pretty simple.  Let's look at the various scenarios:
    • Scenario 1.  Welker plays out the contracts.  In this case, he gets $12 million from the Broncos and $10 million from the Pats.  There is some more upside in the Pats deal because of the incentives, but I have a feeling Welker and his agent felt that getting all $6 million in incentives was a real long shot and at best they might end up with $2 million. Overall, the Denver deal looks a little more attractive if you assume you're going to play out the contracts and you don't think the incentives are that realistic. 
    • Scenario 2. Welker gets a career ending injury in 2013.  With the Pats deal, he ends up with $10 million.  With the Broncos, 12 million (his 2014 pay is guaranteed against injury).  So again, with a career ending injury the Broncos deal is better.
    • Secenario 3. Welker plays one year and is cut.  Here's where the Pats deal is better. Welker would end up with $10 million for one year, plus get a chance at free agency in 2014.  With the Broncos he ends up with just $6 million for one year, though he still gets another chance at free agency for 2014.  This heavily favours the Pats deal it seems.  But it's a tad more complex.  The reality is, the way the Pats deal is structured, Welker would count for just $4 million against the cap in 2014 so he likely wouldn't be cut, especially when you consider his dead money would be $2 million--so cutting Welker in 2014, would only net the Pats $2 million in cap space.  That means he is relatively unlikely to get cut by the Pats in 2014 and therefore is highly likely to play out the deal and get "stuck" with just $10 million.  With Denver, however, there's a higher chance he gets cut because he's got an $8 million cap cost in 2014 (and also $2 million in dead money, so cutting Welker would free up $6 million in cap space for Denver).  The odd thing, though is that being cut isn't so bad for Welker because it gives him another chance at free agency.  To equal what he would have made with the Pats, all he needs to do is get a deal for 2014 in free agency worth $4 million.  There are some challenges with that of course, but Welker and his agent must have come to the conclusion that (1) there was a good chance Welker would play out the contract in Denver and end up with the full 12 million and (2) if he were cut, he would have a pretty good chance in 2014 of getting a deal worth at least $4 million.
    • This is no slam dunk decision--the deals from the Broncos and Pats were in many ways close.  The Denver deal is better if Welker gets hurt or if he plays out the contract.  The Pats deal is better if Welker gets cut after one year or if those incentives turn out to be more realistic.  In the end, I think Welker and his agent thought the Pats were screwing around with him with the incentives and the structure that may have forced him to play for short money in 2014.  The Denver deal was much more straightforward, and although it gave him less guaranteed money in 2013, it left him with much better options in 2014. It was the better options in 2014, I believe, that made Welker and his agent favour the Broncos offer over the Pats offer.  
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrtm70. Show mrtm70's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    Also one angle that hasn't been mentioned is the WW wife angle...What I mean is the, I just married you, "we" are friends with TB & GB and see how they are living the high life & my husband & "I" deserve that lifestyle too.  Then she feels she has a right to "T" off on Twitter about Ray Lewis, less than 1 year into the marriage & Pats front brass feel that's unacceptable  from the WW camp after the Rex Ryan Foot joke.  The final straw that broke the preverbial camel's back is WW letting his Agent screw up negotiations to retain him for above market value.  WW's wife was definetly in Wes' ear about how "they" deserve this & that and that his agent is right (about what BS he's selling to Wes) because "she" wants to hit the lottery herself to live the TB/GB high life.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from NY-PATS-FAN4. Show NY-PATS-FAN4's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    It's hard for me to think of someone who's Ptriots opinion/sources I trust and respect more than Holley. He has been around the team in varying degrees (some closer than any other reprter I'm aware of) for over a decade. He made calls, gathered info, and waited until he gathered enough to feel like he could weigh in heavily on the subject.

    According to him and his sources, Welker's agents basically said that whatever the offer was going to be, 2011 (franchise tag 9.5) + 2012 and beyond else has to add up to AT LEAST 20 million guaranteed, and start there. For instance, they were saying he wouldn't have worked for a single year at anything less than the 11.5 the second year Franchise would have brought, and at least 11.5 would have to have been guaranteed in ANY offer for them to consider it.

    Welker's agents absolutely, and TOTALLY misread the situation, and are trying to keep from looking as bad as they are.

    Additionally, in any previous negotiation that went bad, regardless of what was said...I've never heard Kraft be so outspoken. That led me to believe either he was telling the truth and flat out pizzed at what was being said...or he's had a fundamental change in his behavior that hasn't been seen before.

    Agents are bad for sports. They are akin to ambulance-chasing, sleazeball lawyers. 99% of the contracts they "get" for their clients, could be gotten by the player themselves, most every-day sports fans, and probably most service animals as well.

    Good luck to Welker. I was ok with him going elsewhere, I was ok with him not coming back last year...but that's just me. The agents? They can burn.



    I would agree that bad agents are bad for sports, Dragon. But good agents have staffs that spend countless hours culling statistics, know what the market/team demand is for any position, and can make a strong, logical argument for why a player deserves a certain amount. Few players have the time, inclination and talent to scout the market as such. Further, agents can advocate for a player without becoming emotional when the team counters facts supporting the player with facts supporting the team.


    For most players, or performers of any sort, having a good agent is an invaluable asset.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     


    I would agree that bad agents are bad for sports, Dragon. But good agents have staffs that spend countless hours culling statistics, know what the market/team demand is for any position, and can make a strong, logical argument for why a player deserves a certain amount. Few players have the time, inclination and talent to scout the market as such. Further, agents can advocate for a player without becoming emotional when the team counters facts supporting the player with facts supporting the team.

     


    For most players, or performers of any sort, having a good agent is an invaluable asset.



    Yep, agents play a very valuable role for these players, most of whom would be helpless trying to negotiate with Bob Kraft on their own.  

    Also, it's worth pointing out that Welker's agent David Dunn is considered one of the best in the business.  He's also done a number of deals with the Pats over the years  .  . . he was Bledsoe's agent and he just did the Hernandez deal (he represents more than half a dozen Pats players).  This guy is no lightweight.  He knows what he's doing and I think folks are being a bit naive if they think he just screwed up big time.  Welker's situation was a tough one, given Welker's age, the franchise tag, and his unusual skill set that might not work in every system.  Given those disadvantages, the agent had a tough, tough job and actually navigated the waters pretty well.  

    If he made a mistake, maybe it was not recommending that Welker do what Mankins did: refuse to sign the tag and not come to camp.  Welker may not have had the leverage that Mankins had because it's likely the Pats didn't want him as badly . . . but sometimes teams like the Pats that are willing to push their leverage are best dealt with by playing hardball. Seymour, Samuel, Branch, and Mankins all did that and ended up with more money because of it. 

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to alfred-e-bob-neumier's comment:

    Agent blew it...period....he got his only function, to know the market for his client, WRONG!!!..

     

    Enuf...dude is gone, time to move on...



    No, an agent's only function is to get the best possible deal for his client.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     

    It's hard for me to think of someone who's Ptriots opinion/sources I trust and respect more than Holley. He has been around the team in varying degrees (some closer than any other reprter I'm aware of) for over a decade. He made calls, gathered info, and waited until he gathered enough to feel like he could weigh in heavily on the subject.

    According to him and his sources, Welker's agents basically said that whatever the offer was going to be, 2011 (franchise tag 9.5) + 2012 and beyond else has to add up to AT LEAST 20 million guaranteed, and start there. For instance, they were saying he wouldn't have worked for a single year at anything less than the 11.5 the second year Franchise would have brought, and at least 11.5 would have to have been guaranteed in ANY offer for them to consider it.

    Welker's agents absolutely, and TOTALLY misread the situation, and are trying to keep from looking as bad as they are.

    Additionally, in any previous negotiation that went bad, regardless of what was said...I've never heard Kraft be so outspoken. That led me to believe either he was telling the truth and flat out pizzed at what was being said...or he's had a fundamental change in his behavior that hasn't been seen before.

    Agents are bad for sports. They are akin to ambulance-chasing, sleazeball lawyers. 99% of the contracts they "get" for their clients, could be gotten by the player themselves, most every-day sports fans, and probably most service animals as well.

    Good luck to Welker. I was ok with him going elsewhere, I was ok with him not coming back last year...but that's just me. The agents? They can burn.

     



    I would agree that bad agents are bad for sports, Dragon. But good agents have staffs that spend countless hours culling statistics, know what the market/team demand is for any position, and can make a strong, logical argument for why a player deserves a certain amount. Few players have the time, inclination and talent to scout the market as such. Further, agents can advocate for a player without becoming emotional when the team counters facts supporting the player with facts supporting the team.

     


    For most players, or performers of any sort, having a good agent is an invaluable asset.




    Well...I'll give you that guys getting those top end deals, like Gholdson and Wallace, have agents that earned their keep. However, I'd comfortably say 75% come in range of what all us keyboard GMs estimate.

    Seriously. I feel like I could be an agent right now. Spend a few days scouring the internet, and find out what the general feeling is. Up that by 10-20%. Do my job visiting teams and fielding offers, also making counters. At some point, probably not long into the process for average players, I get a number me and the player are comfortable with. Am I simplifying things? Of COURSE! Do agents over-complicate things in real life? Painfully so.

    Tedy Bruschi and Mark McGwire are 2 guys that showed just how easy it should be. McGwire, when he signed his last 2/30 deal with ST L commented something to the effect of "we went intoa  room, 15 minutes later we were done." Bruschi commented that he was happy where he was, and the 8 mil he signed for 4 years was a lot of money. Aaron Hernandez asked to have a 50k donation written into his, and he and Gronk got it done fast, early and easy. Even Welker's dealings with DEN, removing NE from the situation, show how easy it should be.

    Pro - you're right. many people are AWFUL negotiators...1) many people can't say 'no'. 2) many people don't like asking for anything, it makes them uncomfortable. Neither applies to me. I have no problem asking, being told no, or saying no. It's actually very easy, I don't understand people's issue with that.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrtm70. Show mrtm70's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    Also another great assesment by a fan on ESPN:

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/forum/_/name/ne/new-england-patriots#!/topic/1363821551-702-71

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    Ha dragon, if you're good at negotiating you should try getting in to it.  They make a boatload of money! Need to have some technical knowledge too, but a lot of the skill is exactly what you say-- not being shy about asking for what you want and not being a pushover.

     

    I always tell the consultants on my team that if they don't ever lose some deals on price, they're probably not setting the price high enough. You can leave a lot of money on the table if you don't aim high enough.  

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from NY-PATS-FAN4. Show NY-PATS-FAN4's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

     

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     

    It's hard for me to think of someone who's Ptriots opinion/sources I trust and respect more than Holley. He has been around the team in varying degrees (some closer than any other reprter I'm aware of) for over a decade. He made calls, gathered info, and waited until he gathered enough to feel like he could weigh in heavily on the subject.

    According to him and his sources, Welker's agents basically said that whatever the offer was going to be, 2011 (franchise tag 9.5) + 2012 and beyond else has to add up to AT LEAST 20 million guaranteed, and start there. For instance, they were saying he wouldn't have worked for a single year at anything less than the 11.5 the second year Franchise would have brought, and at least 11.5 would have to have been guaranteed in ANY offer for them to consider it.

    Welker's agents absolutely, and TOTALLY misread the situation, and are trying to keep from looking as bad as they are.

    Additionally, in any previous negotiation that went bad, regardless of what was said...I've never heard Kraft be so outspoken. That led me to believe either he was telling the truth and flat out pizzed at what was being said...or he's had a fundamental change in his behavior that hasn't been seen before.

    Agents are bad for sports. They are akin to ambulance-chasing, sleazeball lawyers. 99% of the contracts they "get" for their clients, could be gotten by the player themselves, most every-day sports fans, and probably most service animals as well.

    Good luck to Welker. I was ok with him going elsewhere, I was ok with him not coming back last year...but that's just me. The agents? They can burn.

     



    I would agree that bad agents are bad for sports, Dragon. But good agents have staffs that spend countless hours culling statistics, know what the market/team demand is for any position, and can make a strong, logical argument for why a player deserves a certain amount. Few players have the time, inclination and talent to scout the market as such. Further, agents can advocate for a player without becoming emotional when the team counters facts supporting the player with facts supporting the team.

     


    For most players, or performers of any sort, having a good agent is an invaluable asset.

     




    Well...I'll give you that guys getting those top end deals, like Gholdson and Wallace, have agents that earned their keep. However, I'd comfortably say 75% come in range of what all us keyboard GMs estimate.

     

    Seriously. I feel like I could be an agent right now. Spend a few days scouring the internet, and find out what the general feeling is. Up that by 10-20%. Do my job visiting teams and fielding offers, also making counters. At some point, probably not long into the process for average players, I get a number me and the player are comfortable with. Am I simplifying things? Of COURSE! Do agents over-complicate things in real life? Painfully so.

    Tedy Bruschi and Mark McGwire are 2 guys that showed just how easy it should be. McGwire, when he signed his last 2/30 deal with ST L commented something to the effect of "we went intoa  room, 15 minutes later we were done." Bruschi commented that he was happy where he was, and the 8 mil he signed for 4 years was a lot of money. Aaron Hernandez asked to have a 50k donation written into his, and he and Gronk got it done fast, early and easy. Even Welker's dealings with DEN, removing NE from the situation, show how easy it should be.

    Pro - you're right. many people are AWFUL negotiators...1) many people can't say 'no'. 2) many people don't like asking for anything, it makes them uncomfortable. Neither applies to me. I have no problem asking, being told no, or saying no. It's actually very easy, I don't understand people's issue with that.




    Dragon, Bruschi was a unique case. He simply loved playing for BB and the Patriots, felt his "hometown discount" was more than fair, and was not looking for the highest dollar from the market. He also benefitted from being one of BB's favorite players.

    But he would have made many more millions had he had an agent to shop him to the highest bidder. Fortunately, for we Pats fans, Tedy had higher priorities.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to alfred-e-bob-neumier's comment:

     

    Agent blew it...period....he got his only function, to know the market for his client, WRONG!!!..

     

    Enuf...dude is gone, time to move on...

     



    No, an agent's only function is to get the best possible deal for his client.  

     

     



    Well, it's also fit and to have an understanding of what a team looks like in the market.

     

    For example, 1-2 million more to play in Miami or player here for 1 less? Be happier or more miserable?

    What is the point, other than to get more commission for yourself, to send your client into a crappy environment to a poorly run team? Some of these players are young, naive, and quite frankly, aren't that intelligent.

    That's the point. It's the agent's job to handle this kind of stuff to do all the legwork to present each package to the client.

    Welker's agent did nothing. He sat back, got greedy, misread the market and failed his client as  a result.

    I know you're a huge fan of unions and all that crap, but sometimes these people who rep union members are WORSE than the people you don't like.

    You gotta watch out for yourself and Wes didn't. 

    If Denver does not win the SB this year, they ain't winning it and they (Elway and Co) know it.

    I feel bad for Wes, but he had his chance to have the cake and eat it too.

     

     

     



    I don't know Rusty.  I don't see evidence that Dunn got lazy.  Remember he was negotiating the Hernandez deal at the same time--a deal that I think both sides were happy with.  The Welker situation was just a tougher one because Welker was disadvantaged by age, the franchise tag, and his atypical skillset that might not make him a good fit in many systems.

     

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Michael Holley offers insight/details into Welker situation

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to alfred-e-bob-neumier's comment:

     

    Agent blew it...period....he got his only function, to know the market for his client, WRONG!!!..

     

    Enuf...dude is gone, time to move on...

     



    No, an agent's only function is to get the best possible deal for his client.  

     

     



    Well, it's also fit and to have an understanding of what a team looks like in the market.

     

    For example, 1-2 million more to play in Miami or player here for 1 less? Be happier or more miserable?

    What is the point, other than to get more commission for yourself, to send your client into a crappy environment to a poorly run team? Some of these players are young, naive, and quite frankly, aren't that intelligent.

    That's the point. It's the agent's job to handle this kind of stuff to do all the legwork to present each package to the client.

    Welker's agent did nothing. He sat back, got greedy, misread the market and failed his client as  a result.

    I know you're a huge fan of unions and all that crap, but sometimes these people who rep union members are WORSE than the people you don't like.

    You gotta watch out for yourself and Wes didn't. 

    If Denver does not win the SB this year, they ain't winning it and they (Elway and Co) know it.

    I feel bad for Wes, but he had his chance to have the cake and eat it too.

     

     

     

     



    I don't know Rusty.  I don't see evidence that Dunn got lazy.  Remember he was negotiating the Hernandez deal at the same time--a deal that I think both sides were happy with.  The Welker situation was just a tougher one because Welker was disadvantaged by age, the franchise tag, and his atypical skillset that might not make him a good fit in many systems.

     

     

     




    He should have known that BB was paying a younger Hernandez money ahead of the market (and Gronk) AFTER Welker rejected the money.

     

    Does this guy know anything about football?  BB is going to put 30 million a year in the slot?

    Really?

    I do know. His agent is a greedy moron and lost.

    All the things you say in your last sentence is what the agent should have known. Instead, he acted like he had the leverage.

    I said it 18 months ago. That was probably the best deal Welker was ever going to see. Once BB upped Hernandez ahead of time, I knew it be over.

    Throw in the binky thing, the drops, etc, and they're just done.



    I think the agent was well aware that he was pushing the limits.  But I think he felt he had to push to get the most for Welker given the disadvantages.  I think it was exactly because he understood the market and its challenges that he played his hand with Welker more aggressively than he did with Hern.  

     
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