In Response to Re: More Proof BB = Best GM of Cap Era:


Your logic is impeccable....if you're in fact a 12 year old.

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Russ..I would definitely put BB in the best GM of the cap era discussion. He's done a good job overall, with hits and misses, thankfully more hits than misses when you look at the full body of work.

Also, lets not forget who he made the trade with on Cassell. Call it big balls or whatever you want, but I'm sure he had a deal in place with Pioli before he decided to commit $16M to Cassell.

Agree with PatsEng on this as well. The current GB situation is a bit different. I also agree on your pointing out Pitts salary cap mess as well as, how much we will be under. It speaks volumes about BB's overall ability as a GM. He just needs to nail some more early picks in the draft + hit on some more FAs to cement this team as a dynasty entrant for the 2nd decade in this millenium.

Yes the GM is the best. Who else could have assembled the 31st ranked defense except that GM genius.

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In Response to Re: More Proof BB = Best GM of Cap Era:


Yes but your point was that tagging Cassel was a risk based on that other teams would make the Pat's eat the 16mil tag when they needed to resign Brady, Wilfork, and Mankins. I'm just pointing out the two separate events had no barring on each other.

From your own words "And by tagging Cassel, you risk all teams saying "let him eat his 16 million so he can't pay Brady, Wiflork and Mankins. Don't you get this?" That's where you went wrong in the comparison. What BB did with Seymour and resigning Brady and Wilfork before the new cap would be known is a separate issue in which I believe he made the right moves but the whole premise you based this thread on was that BB is the better GM because he tagged Cassel (again great move) and GB won't tag Flynn and will most likely receive only a 3rd comp pick for him. But, the 2 situations are different because of the position both teams were put in, in which GB has 2 big name FA's they need to pay or tag one while the Pats had no one they wanted to keep and a large cap numbers coming off the books. With Brady being injured that year BB couldn't have planned on Cassel performing that well and planned on tagging him.

Now if Brady was never injured and BB still tagged him or if Brady, Wilforks, and Mankins contracts were up after the 08's season then it would have been a good comparison but since it didn't happen comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

The better arguments to make about BB as a great cap manager would be as you pointed out his move with Seymour and the excellent position he put the Pats into coming into this off-season. As an overall GM though you can have a debate how good he is.

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WTH does Seymour have anything to do with the Cassel to Flynn comparison? It has no relevance to the comparison at all and nether does Vrable. Nether players contracts were up at the time and nether were affected by Cassel getting tagged.

Finely and Wells are completely different then Seymour and Vrable. For one Finely and Wells are FA's and Seymour and Vrable were under contract at the time.

Sometimes Russ it's amazing how your mind works. Other then Vrable getting traded with Cassel there is no connection to Cassel being tagged and Seymour and Vrable getting traded and yet you are arguing that Cassel being traded is somehow being linked to the two and that is what makes the comparison to GB situation even though they are dealing with FA's while BB was dealing with players under contract.

 I don't even know wth the uncertainty of the cap after 10' and any contract signed during and after 10' has to do with Cassel being tagged in 09' that only would have affected 09' season in which they made no major moves that would have been affected by Cassel getting the tag in the first place.

Cassel was tagged because BB had no major contracts up at the time, had plenty of cap space to work around the tag if needed, had a buyer all ready lined up, and it would have only affected that 1 years cap if no one took Cassel.

Flynn won't get tagged because Thompson has 2 major contracts that are up, doesn't have the cap space to work around the tag if needed, doesn't have a buyer lined up (that we know of), and if he doesn't get a buyer losing an all-pro does affect him longer then 1 season.

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If I'm GB I tag Flynn, get something for him, and let Finley walk.

Wide receivers are not critical to a team's overall success and GB has enough pass catchers anyway, it would seem.

If they can spin Flynn into a 2nd or 3rd rounder, they could always draft another WR anyway.

Don't overvalue WRs---that's a cardinal sin in the salary cap era. It's always the most overvalued position on most teams' roster(s)

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Rusty it's confusing because Seymour, Cassel, and Vrable had no barring on each other at all while Flynn, Wells, and Finley do directly relate to each other.

To prove this point, if Cassel was never tagged Vrable and Seymour would have still been released  or traded. The fact that Cassel was tag did not in turn make Seymour or Vrable get traded. If Cassel was tagged and could not be traded then Seymour and Vrable could still have stayed with the team since they all still fit under the cap.

In GB's case if Flynn is tagged then they won't have the cap room to sign both Finley and Wells nor will they have the tag to place on one of those goes. If Flynn is not tagged then they do.

It's completely 2 different situations that are nothing a like other then 2 backup QB's with value.

Now if Seymours and Vrables contract were up at the time and the Pats wanted to keep both and had to make a decision on whether to tag Cassel that would be a similar situation. However, Seymour and Vrable getting traded was not predicated on Cassel getting traded which is the premise of your thread.

You can't connect Seymour and Vrable and Cassel together on BB's decision to tag or trade any of them as they are all separate decisions (well Vrable was added to Cassel to sweeten the deal but Vrable was gone one way or another)

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Don't you love Bill O'Brien?

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In Response to Re: More Proof BB = Best GM of Cap Era:


But Seymour wasn't traded to pay for Cassel's tag and Cassel's tag didn't prevent them from keeping Seymour under the cap

Vrable wasn't traded to pay for Cassel's tag and Cassel's tag didn't prevent them from keeping Vrable under the cap.

They weren't traded to make room on the cap in 09'. If all 3 were kept on the team then there was no move the team couldn't have made in that year so no their money in that season had no bearing on why they were traded in that year.

After that year Cassel's tag would have been gone so it wouldn't have affected the cap moving forward

After that year Seymours contract would have been up so it wouldn't have affected the cap moving forward

After that year Vrable's contract would have been up so it wouldn't have affected the cap moving forward.

There were no major signs/resigns during the 08' season so their contracts had no affect on that season.

Why BB traded them was because he got good value in which he could not pay them large contract demands moving forward nor did it appear that BB was interested in keeping them moving forward

GB on the other hand wants to keep Wells and Finley and had not intention on keeping Flynn. He would not have traded Finley and Well's last year because I doubt they would have gotten good value for either at the time and they were in their plans moving forward. They have the space this year to sign both provided there isn't a QB tag on a player they don't intend to keep. If they tag the QB and they can't trade him until the draft they risk losing 1 or both since FA doesn't freeze just because they want to keep both. Tagging Flynn would directly effect GBs ability to keep 2 players they want for the future.

But lets compare apples to apples for a minute. If say Hernandez and Mankins contract both end the same year Cassel took over for Brady. And if you tagged Cassel you could not afford to keep both Hern and Mankins until Cassel was traded (which would have been the case after the 08' season) which could take until the start of pre-season. Would BB still have tagged Cassel. That would have been a similar situation in which GB is currently facing and one where I believe BB would not have placed the franchise tag on Cassel.

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Finley has a lot of name recognition but he is a Jag.  He is not a pro bowler, never made it, and many in GB want him gone because he drops lots of passes.  He was a 3rd rounder and plays like one. 

Wells is decent but he'll be 32 next year. 

These two cannot seriously be the reason they are not tagging Flynn.  They must already be against the cap because I suspect they could grab 2 cheap vets or mid level picks to replace those guys with no drop off.

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I did, my point was they are stupid if they are valuing those players over getiing an early round pick.  I suspect they are willing to overpay them.

I think it's great that the pats are in the Super Bowl, but to insinuate that the reason they're there is because of cap management is a major stretch to me. We are 10 million under the cap right now, I'd feel better about our chances on Sunday if some of that money had been spent on some more good players. The Giants are a good team, we are not going to be facing a team that has a QB that can't throw beyond ten yards or a kicker that can't hit one from 32.

Imagine what Belichick could of done with a roster that had spent to the salary cap top? I imagine one more solid defensive lineman would help, or a corner.

I know it will be asked, just who do you expect them to sign? That's a topic for another thread and has been rehashed by many over and over. I just think that it shouldn't be celebrated that we made it to a Super Bowl by not spending to the cap, when in reality it had nothing to do with getting us there and just might prevent us from winning it. 

In Response to Re: More Proof BB = Best GM of Cap Era:


Russ Seymour was still under contract so they could have paid him what he wanted after the season once Cassels tag disappeared. Cassels tag did not prevent Seymour from being resigned as a FA. They didn't want to pay him though because they would have rather paid Wilfork, which in the end they did. Seymour was also traded after the fact that Cassel was long gone so obviously they didn't plan on keeping him and Cassel's tag had no bearing on that happening.

Cassel's tag had nothing to do with Seymour being traded, however Wilfork and Seymours contracts running up at the same time did and that's why he was traded. Even if Cassel didn't get traded Seymour still would have been traded because they couldn't afford to pay both Seymour and Wilfork not because Cassel received the tag for 1 year

Are we really debating this? SB 2 weeks is to long. I can't wait for the game anymore

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