More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jbolted. Show jbolted's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]Jbolt how in the hell does where Warner worked before he played pro ball relivent what so ever to this conversation? It validates the point that Warner got a later start - due to not having a chance based on 'who ya know'- like Peyton. If you don't see that, your off base TAZ
    What does any of what you had to say play into this conversation? Again, Warner is a downfield passer, more yards attempted per throw. Peyton is a dump off specialist. I get it you dont like Manning, I doubt you hate him more then I do d double doubt it but coming up with retarded ways to justify why you think Warner is better is dumb. If you had just said Manning crummbles under presure and Warner does not then I would have no issue but talking about where warner worked and how everything has been given to manning has nothing to do with the facts.The fact is Warner's style of play, with both Stl & Az, is more Bradyesque. Meaning he goes downfield while Peyton lives off the short game. If you dont see that you're not as observant as once thought[/Quote]

    I despise the Manning clan, MUCH more than you.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    While I can understand disliking Eli or Peyton as an opposing player and Archie as a meddling douchebag . . .

    Despise?

    That's a little harsh, don't you think?

    And the whole clan?

    What did Cooper ever do to you guys?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Manning and Warner have generally played in systems that are kissing cousins. Sure the Colts use the old Ted Marchibroda 4 play calling, but otherwise they are like the Rams and Cards, who all run offensive systems derived from the Air Coryell vein.

    Deep timing and short timing. They stretch the defense vertically and run after. Both teams use modern variants that supplant some power running for short swing passes, and splitting the RB out.

    West coast offense is horizontal and spreads it out across the field. Two seperate systems but both rely on timing. Just like in college QB's who post the most prolific numbers tend to come from these systems. Calling out Warner or Manning is calling out the other.

    Warner does throw a much prettier ball, and reacts better to the blitz. I would say Manning has slightly better footwork. But they are very similar from similar systems. I think the difference between total accumulation between the two comes down to Manning being on one team without the wierd hiatus that Warner took, which allowed him to pile up some numbers that Warner could have had if St. Louis didn't go with a youth movement. And in the playoffs, Warner is better because he is better against a blitz.

    All in all, the way to get to Warner is to knock his team out of its timing. The way to get to Manning is to put a guy in his face, and to disguise the blitz because that is where the K-gun always falls apart, when it's presnap reads are faulty.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    UD - got to take the good with the bad. Consider this site has many more non Pats fans who post here with stuff that diminishes the team and its players than Pats fans who post stuff to diminish other teams and their players. Remember, TP was simply bringing up SOMEONE else's opinion in an article.. not his doing.
    PS - the pissing match between the two of you is amusing, to say the least!!

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]Manning and Warner have generally played in systems that are kissing cousins. Sure the Colts use the old Ted Marchibroda 4 play calling, but otherwise they are like the Rams and Cards, who all run offensive systems derived from the Air Coryell vein.

    Deep timing and short timing. They stretch the defense vertically and run after. Both teams use modern variants that supplant some power running for short swing passes, and splitting the RB out.

    West coast offense is horizontal and spreads it out across the field. Two seperate systems but both rely on timing. Just like in college QB's who post the most prolific numbers tend to come from these systems. Calling out Warner or Manning is calling out the other.

    Warner does throw a much prettier ball, and reacts better to the blitz. I would say Manning has slightly better footwork. But they are very similar from similar systems. I think the difference between total accumulation between the two comes down to Manning being on one team without the wierd hiatus that Warner took, which allowed him to pile up some numbers that Warner could have had if St. Louis didn't go with a youth movement. And in the playoffs, Warner is better because he is better against a blitz.

    All in all, the way to get to Warner is to knock his team out of its timing. The way to get to Manning is to put a guy in his face, and to disguise the blitz because that is where the K-gun always falls apart, when it's presnap reads are faulty.[/Quote]

    Z - I would agree that the systems in which Warner has played well (STL and AZ) seem to be similar to the one in which manning plays.

    I think Warner throws one of the best balls in Football and he seems very accurate downfield. Manning throws an inconsistent ball. Sometimes it is nice sometimes its a duck. Regardless it generally gets to the target.

    I am surprised to hear you mention manning's footwork. Although it has gotten much better since his early years, he still seems to have happy feet in the pocket.

    As for Warner's team moves, I think most of the confidence in him around the league went way down after his thumb injury. Actually coming back as he has after such an injury I think deserve a lot of accolades. Short of not being able to walk, I am not sure there is much worse for a QB.

    Finally, the blitz, I would agree that manning does not always perform well against the blitz. Some of this i attribute to 1) his expectation that the blocking scheme will pick it up 2) he may have the worst movement in the pocket of any of the top tier quarterbacks. He just cannot get away from a pass rush
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Extremely happy. You can see that he has never been comfortable there. I was trying to say something positive.

    Warner even takes a far crisper drop than Manning. But after the drop he is a statue, and at least Manning can slide a little, well he really kind of tap dances as opposed to sliding. I am not talking style points, and while I would never say Manning has good feet, Warner is the worst.

    I dont' think Manning's problem is getting sacked, it is rushing the throw into the wrong spot. He actually gets sacked less than most QB's, but always seem to degrade when he is under pressure.

    Warner is like Brady in that he gets the ball out lethally fast, and they are the two QBs I would be least likely to blitz. He uses his release to make up for his poor pocket movement.

    Yes, the thumb injury cost Warner a couple pro-bowl seasons IMO. That and the concussion in 2002 (I think) when he had two disasterous seasons. But I pin that on the coaching for rushing him back and keeping him in. Everyone and their dog could see he needed a spell.

    Then he landed in NY in an Earhardt Perkins outfit. Which is a bad fit all the way because you need to move well to work that system. Watch Brady and Bledsoe to see.

    Then he was the "vet" backup for Leinart. Which was a big mistake. As he ahs shown over the last thirty games, he is better than Leinart every will be.

    He basically had five lost seasons, because of those injuries, and even at 3500 yards a season he would have top tne historic numbers. C'est la vie, it shows how fickle the NFL is.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from emilycuba33. Show emilycuba33's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]Bub your first question was who would I rather have in a championship game? meaning that we are skipping the playoffs and Manning is already in the championship if thats teh case i go with Manning. Manning has a hard time getting to teh big game but once he is there he did well. Warner is great im not saying he is not but Manning has been the 2nd best QB for years and just because everyone is on the Kurt Warner bandwagon now does not change the fact that Manni8ng has been one of the best players in the NFL for 10 years. If the question was who would i trust to get me through the playoffs and into teh super bowl I would go with Warner in the playoffs but if we are talking just teh championship game then i go with Manning cause he is teh better QB.[/Quote] Peyton only got there one time!!!!! Would us NE fans be happy making the playoffs each year but coming up short 99% of the time. I don't think so!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    AGC -

    I have no issue with dissenting views, in fact, its at least half the reason for being here. I could sit on an indy site all day, make comments just to have others agree with me. that doesn't do it for me. I'd rather hash out contrasting views. That said, fandom (irrationality) frequently gets in the way. but that's ok.

    As for toilet paper - isn't that his way? For someone who loves squash the pundits for anything anti-pat that is written or said, he certainly loves to use them to discredit anyone else.

    He is allowed. that is his fandom. I just don't care for the masquerade that he is something more rational than a fan. And he has a problem accepting other points of view.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from patswirelessfan. Show patswirelessfan's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Ok,

    sticking with the original topic:
    1. Manning is not over-rated
    2. If I had to pick between Warner or Manning - I take Manning.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jbolted. Show jbolted's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]ah - another manning thread started by none other than our friend toilet paper. check the thread see it tp ever concedes a point. never. talk about a complex.

    at any rate its an opinion poll and what I think of manning does not matter. I simply will point out that he has 3 mvps, 1 sb mvp, and his career stats are near the top. at the very least that puts him in the top 10. of course tp would see it differently.

    but the point i have to refute here is jbolts about the colts passing scheme. not sure where you got the underneath route stuff, but I supply the following links for digestion.

    UD, thanks for proving my point,Warner is 4th on the list Manning is 12th, case closed.
    Manning is 4th among active qbs in yds per attempt.
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_per_att_career.htm

    yes behind warner (which is not the point), but it begs the question where does the theory of the colts employng underneath routes come from especially considering that we frequently see colts receivers go down after catches to avoid hits.

    as for warner, here's something else to chew on. this notes that the cards and steelers are top two teams with yards after catch. In other words, short passes padded by yac which pads yds/attempt
    http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story?id=09000d5d80e3e682&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

    the colts have never employed a west coast offense. In fact, they have generally been known as a more vertical team. jbolt, I just am curious where your opinion came from.[/Quote]
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    I have a problem with the YPA system anyhow.it was devised as a stat to feed the rating system in 1973.

    That system was made in an era where an average rating was in the sixties, and the stat was meant to compliment percentage, in that you get extra points for throwing long passes.

    But the modern NFL has a diversity of offenses. There is no stipulation for RAC yardage, hence Roethlisburger is high on the list, and no stipulation for deep timing offenses that simply didn't exist.

    It also leads people to believe that long passes and medium passes are somehow more difficult throws to make than short passes, and it is more frequently the opposite.

    Most medium length passes are the easiest to make, and long passes require just as much from the receiver as the QB.

    The rating system needs to be recoordinated around these modern offensive principles some time in the near future.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    "It also leads people to believe that long passes and medium passes are somehow more difficult throws to make than short passes, and it is more frequently the opposite.

    Most medium length passes are the easiest to make, and long passes require just as much from the receiver as the QB."

    Please explain. Especially since Cassel was ragged on by everyone on this board for throwing too many short passes the first half of this season.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]AGC -

    I have no issue with dissenting views, in fact, its at least half the reason for being here. I could sit on an indy site all day, make comments just to have others agree with me. that doesn't do it for me. I'd rather hash out contrasting views. That said, fandom (irrationality) frequently gets in the way. but that's ok.

    RESPONSE: You are a phony. You're an Indy troll trying to convince people here otherwise

    As for toilet paper - isn't that his way? For someone who loves squash the pundits for anything anti-pat that is written or said, he certainly loves to use them to discredit anyone else.

    RESPONSE: I never said that I love to squash pundits for anything anti-Pats clown...what I said is that I love to verbally squash trolls like you.

    He is allowed. that is his fandom. I just don't care for the masquerade that he is something more rational than a fan. And he has a problem accepting other points of view.

    RESPONSE: Oh...thank you your majesty for saying that I'm allowed to take whatever positions I choose. You, sir are a hypocrite. It is YOU who is masquerading around here as a rational fan. Because of this, I have a major problem with you, dude...and I will continue to expose you for the hypocrite that you are.


    [/Quote]
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jbolted. Show jbolted's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]Manning and Warner have generally played in systems that are kissing cousins. Sure the Colts use the old Ted Marchibroda 4 play calling, but otherwise they are like the Rams and Cards, who all run offensive systems derived from the Air Coryell vein.

    Deep timing and short timing. They stretch the defense vertically and run after. Both teams use modern variants that supplant some power running for short swing passes, and splitting the RB out.

    West coast offense is horizontal and spreads it out across the field. Two seperate systems but both rely on timing. Just like in college QB's who post the most prolific numbers tend to come from these systems. Calling out Warner or Manning is calling out the other.

    Warner does throw a much prettier ball, and reacts better to the blitz. I would say Manning has slightly better footwork. But they are very similar from similar systems. I think the difference between total accumulation between the two comes down to Manning being on one team without the wierd hiatus that Warner took, which allowed him to pile up some numbers that Warner could have had if St. Louis didn't go with a youth movement. And in the playoffs, Warner is better because he is better against a blitz.

    All in all, the way to get to Warner is to knock his team out of its timing. The way to get to Manning is to put a guy in his face, and to disguise the blitz because that is where the K-gun always falls apart, when it's presnap reads are faulty.[/Quote]

    Z- Have to disagree with you and UD. Ted Marchibroda is a George Allen disciple. Martz of StL 'XYZ' passing route system is from Don Coryell, via Sid Gilman. AZ OC Todd Haley has opened up the play book to fit this style as well. Marchibroda's system and Coryell's are way different,sorry.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote][/Quote]

    Jbolt - not necessarily disagreeing with your point just that you assume that the colts employ an "underneath route" system.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    Z- Have to disagree with you and UD. Ted Marchibroda is a George Allen disciple. Martz of StL 'XYZ' passing route system is from Don Coryell, via Sid Gilman. AZ OC Todd Haley has opened up the play book to fit this style as well. Marchibroda's system and Coryell's are way different,sorry.[/Quote]

    Not so sure about offensive systems. What I am pretty sure about, however, is that Tom Moore never coached with Marchibroda. His initial entry into the NFL was through the Noll steelers where he spent 10+ years. So I am not sure you can tag him to either of these guys.

    At any rate my point was I think it is incorrect to suggest the colts employ an underneath passing system.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote][/Quote]

    TP - I don't have to convince anyone of anything. I say what I want and let them decide. You just don't like me because you don't like my opinion of you which I have made public. Get over it.

    I never said you said you like to squash pundits. I said that. You demonstrate it in your posts, except when you like to use them to make a point which makes you hypocritical.

    Thank you for calling me your majesty. I agree.

    Expose away - I am shaking in my boots.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    George Allen was a defensive coach. He didn't have an offense. What I am reffering to is the fact that both systems operate on ins and outs and deep timing, medium timing.

    Moreover, Ted Marchibroda didn't write their playbook. Tom Moore designed their "system" of plays, and it it essentially based on the vertical spread he ran in Detroit with Moore, and Sanders and Scott Mitchell. Go watch some old Lions tapes and you'll see the Colts offense now, they ran the same deep ins and outs and same short curls that are meant to stretch the field.

    The "wrinkle" he added in Indy was the "K-gun" approach that Marchibroda helped invent, where you don't huddle and send the Qb to the line with a personel package and four plays and they adjust based on what they see in the box.

    The basic point is that both teams use "stretch the field" attacks that are based on timing. The offenses are very, very similar. In either system the QB doesn't have to be super accurate, he throws to a zone and a receiver is supposed to be there. The zones are laid out like a ladder, where longer routes wll open shorter routes, which ideally open holes for the running game.

    I mean Torry Holt and Harrison are near carbon copies. They both racked up tremendous numbers in thsoe systems because they ran precise routes in perfect sequence.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    No he didn't. But the play calling system remains.

    Marchibroda -- /> Infante who was OC for the Bengals when they ran no huddle --> Mora who hired Moore who kept the K-gun--> and Dungy who kept Moore.

    The no huddle approach is built in in Indy almost as much as Earhardt-Perkins is built in in NE.

    Tom Moore's playbook is not like the old Steeler's book at all, but is more like what he had going on in Detroit when they ran a spread in the 1990's.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    TP - I don't have to convince anyone of anything. I say what I want and let them decide. You just don't like me because you don't like my opinion of you which I have made public. Get over it.

    RESPONSE: For whatever reason, the Mods here do nothing to control trolls who come here just to agitate, irritate, and engage in personal attacks. As a result, its' been left to us to fend for ourselves against morons like you who come here...use profanity (for example...calling posters "MF"), start threads aimed at attacking individual posters, and so on.
    Once again, you are a hypocrite...for it is YOU who do not like opinions which conflict with yours...such as that Peyton Manning is a grossly overrated choke artist, Dungy was an average at best coach who was pumped up by the media, and that the Colts are, and have been for the past several years, a bunch of whiners and cry-babies...and that this permeates throughout their organization...starting with the King of Whiners, Bill Polian.


    I never said you said you like to squash pundits. I said that. You demonstrate it in your posts, except when you like to use them to make a point which makes you hypocritical.

    RESPONSE: Exactly...I NEVER said that. You lied about that in a feeble attempt to garner sympathy. As for the rest of what you said...what are you talking about? You can always pick out a phony...they often say things that sound good, but mean nothing.

    Thank you for calling me your majesty. I agree.

    RESPONSE: That figures...you're delusional.

    Expose away - I am shaking in my boots.

    RESPONSE: Please keep posting fool...this is too much fun.


    [/Quote]
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Cassel got ragged on because he is a poor fit here. He can't throw the long ball well, and it is an essential part of the offensive strategy. I don't think people ragged on him for throwing too many short passes, he just doesn't have the rainbow arc you need to get the ball to the receiver where it needs to be. And he always underthrows them deep.

    That said, short passes are very hard to throw. Especially quick and to the right for right handers, or across the body, or through traffic.

    Watch how many QB's will put that ball on the ground or on the reciever's shoelaces.

    Or better yet watch Manning tossing a five yard pass 50 MPH and behind his running back's head.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote][/Quote]

    Sad sad toilet paper. Please don't generalize things, I really don't agitate others too much. Just you. And you know why.

    I have no problem with others' opinions but I do assume to see some give and take in the discussions which is foreign to you.

    whoops there you go blaming the media who you then like to use when it favors you. exactly the hypocrisy I am talking about. Thank you for doing it again.

    LOL!!! (remind you of anyone)
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from AZPAT. Show AZPAT's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    Sad sad toilet paper. Please don't generalize things, I really don't agitate others too much. Just you. And you know why.

    I have no problem with others' opinions but I do assume to see some give and take in the discussions which is foreign to you.

    whoops there you go blaming the media who you then like to use when it favors you. exactly the hypocrisy I am talking about. Thank you for doing it again.

    LOL!!! (remind you of anyone)[/Quote]

    Huh? You're nothing but a whiny, childlike, boorish troll. Vut, likr Tex, I encoiurage yiou to reveal more of your u=inept and inadequate posts, er, ramblings, abiout eh GREAT Pay-a-ton Manning. Keep worshiping teh Oreos that he licks, ands we'll take care of teh tough stuff, like winning SB's.

    I heard that Old Horseface and his brother are going to have a wrestling match at Wrestlemania. It'll be a tag team affair, against a one armed midget and a peg legged blind woman. The contract can be finalized today if Papa Manning waives his insistance that his boys only need to get a "one" count to win the match, and that the other combatabnts cannot strike his little boys above the knee caps.

    Keep posting away, troll! You're good for teh laughs, even though you think you're serious. LMFAO!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    Sad sad toilet paper. Please don't generalize things, I really don't agitate others too much. Just you. And you know why.

    RESPONSE: Whining again, clown?? You're worse than even Peyton Manning trying to explain his latest playoff choke...LOL!!

    I have no problem with others' opinions but I do assume to see some give and take in the discussions which is foreign to you.

    RESPONSE: Hey dude...take your whines to the Indy forum.

    whoops there you go blaming the media who you then like to use when it favors you. exactly the hypocrisy I am talking about. Thank you for doing it again.

    RESPONSE: In your last several posts, you've shown yourself to be both a liar (in making up things that I supposedly said) and a hypocrite. Now you're trying to say because I sometimes agree with articles written and sometimes disagree, that that proves I'm a hypocrite? Thats' dumb...even for you.

    [/Quote]
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    AZ:

    The more that Underdogg, a/k/a "m" posts, the less credibility he has.
     
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