More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    To All:

    A little follow-up on my last "RESPONSE" post to Underdogg, a/k/a "m". The Indy Star has a feature in its' sports section dealing with the Colts called "The Manning Meter". I kid you not. It calculates on a game by game basis Mr. Wonderful's rise in the NFL record book.

    I recommend not looking at this on a full stomach: http://www.indystar.com/section/SPORTS0301

    Golly gee...isn't that swell?? LOL!!
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d805b5d95

    here is your reality.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]Brady won't even be ranked in the top 10 when he retires. Brady had way more talent then most of the QBs in the top 10 and they were still able to win. Brady is product of the Patriots system and no more. Put him on a mediocre team and he becomes a mediocre QB over night. You Pats fans need to take off the rose colored glasses and see reality for what it is.[/Quote]

    RESPONSE: "...Brady had way more talent then most of the QBs in the top 10 and they were still able to win."

    Folks...what we obviously have here is yet another scholar from the Indianapolis school system.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kmaxx. Show Kmaxx's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]Brady won't even be ranked in the top 10 when he retires. Brady had way more talent then most of the QBs in the top 10 and they were still able to win. Brady is product of the Patriots system and no more. Put him on a mediocre team and he becomes a mediocre QB over night. You Pats fans need to take off the rose colored glasses and see reality for what it is.[/Quote]

    Another example of why stupid people should be Sterilized.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Want more proof that Peyton Manning is grossly overrated? His salary cap number for next year is $21.2mil.. Thats' NY Yankees-type money, people. All this for the Picaso of Choke Artists. Is he worth it? http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/04/manning-carries-212-million-cap-number-into-2009/

    Be sure to check out the fan comments to the above cited article...LOL!!

    Thoughts?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Sigh...

    Texas Pat - It is just going to have to be my responsibility to constantly reveal you as the fraud you are. Just because I spit on you, you have become like your best friend hess. You care not what you say, you say it anyway.

    1. Yes my opinion is just as important as Kravitz, because Kravitz only writes opinion. Yes you get slammed for backing Kravitz, because you choose to defend pundits only when you like what you read. You let your fandom get in the way of rationality, which is fine, but don't try to pass yourself off as objective.

    2. Yes, finding a professional sports writer to back your opinion adds credibility to your opinion - except when the writer in the same article talks out of the other side of his mouth by believing something absolutely contrary to his original premise. Thus - validating your opinion with double speak adds zero credibility to your own view.

    3. Bob Kravitz is the indystar's most respected sports columnist. He is also its most disrespected columnist. HE IS ITS ONLY SPORTS COLUMNIST! chuckle. Thanks for validating your in-depth knowledge of the indy sports scene. At the very least this validates YOU as a fraud.

    4. You can't take back or refute something after you've been exposed as defending it. You defended Kravitz article in total until I exposed his flip flop. Now you are challenging his flip-flop?? LOL!!! (remind you of anyone) Sorry TP. No words can take fraud out of the definition of you.

    5. Ok - lets revisit specifics:

    my comment: "Depending on your perspective, it is either irresponsible or par for the course for a columnist, whose very livlihood depends on his use of words, to make an arguement laying blame for the colts failures at the feet of the offense while in the same column stating that they are FORCED TO BE SO RIDICULOUSLY EFFICIENT."

    YOUR RESPONSE: Nice try at cut and pasting, son...but no cigar. If you go back and re-read the paragraph you cited, Kravitz says that "could the defense be better...absolutely"...(and if they were better), Manning (would) get more possessions every game, and not be forced to be so efficient. Thats' true of every offense. In years past, that might have been true...but not this year.

    Didn't you say the same thing I did? LOL!!! (remind you of anyone). I cut and pasted verbatim words. YOU ADDED YOUR OWN WORDS (AND IT DIDN'T EVEN HELP YOUR COMPREHENSION), CUT THE DESCRIPTIVE WORDS (THESE ARE KEY FOR A PROFESSIONAL WRITER AND YET YOUR REMOVAL OF THEM DID NOT DIMINISH THE POINT) AND THE POINT STILL STANDS. Thanks for defending my point. Kravitz point - The defense was not good enough that Manning had the luxury of being less than "so ridiculously efficient".

    Beyond that you lost the premise of the article (and I don't think you were smart enough to do this on purpose) which was to point out the colts underachievement over many years as opposed to simply this year. Yet, you finished your paragraph by commenting only about this year.

    Your efforts are fraudulant - hess like - meaningless. A litte more focus would help.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    I realize Manning probably gets all the free Oreos he wants from Nabisco for endorsing its fine product, but hey . . . milk is expensive.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Umie79. Show Umie79's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Troy Aikman needs to be on any top 10 list.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]Sigh...

    Texas Pat - It is just going to have to be my responsibility to constantly reveal you as the fraud you are. Just because I spit on you, you have become like your best friend hess. You care not what you say, you say it anyway.

    RESPONSE: You, sir, have no credibility. But, welcome back. You "spit on me?" You're class personified, bud.

    1. Yes my opinion is just as important as Kravitz, because Kravitz only writes opinion. Yes you get slammed for backing Kravitz, because you choose to defend pundits only when you like what you read. You let your fandom get in the way of rationality, which is fine, but don't try to pass yourself off as objective.

    RESPONSE: I get "slammed for backing Kravitz?" By who?? I realize that you're a product of the Indianapolis school system, but even you can't be this stupid. You've stated previously that professional sports writers' opinions are more valid than mine. Yet, now that I cite a professional's opinion, who has been a life-long Peyton apologist, you chastise me for that? Why can't you accept the obvious. Facts are facts...Peyton Manning chokes in big games. Always has, always will.


    2. Yes, finding a professional sports writer to back your opinion adds credibility to your opinion - except when the writer in the same article talks out of the other side of his mouth by believing something absolutely contrary to his original premise. Thus - validating your opinion with double speak adds zero credibility to your own view.

    RESPONSE: Check out of the twilight zone, pal. You can engage in all the linguistic exercises that you wish...but it doesn't change the facts about how poorly Peyton performs in the clutch.

    3. Bob Kravitz is the indystar's most respected sports columnist. He is also its most disrespected columnist. HE IS ITS ONLY SPORTS COLUMNIST! chuckle. Thanks for validating your in-depth knowledge of the indy sports scene. At the very least this validates YOU as a fraud.

    RESPONSE: Are you seriously going to argue that, prior to this year, Kravitz has been anything but a Peyton Manning apologist? You referring to me as a fraud is rich...as you've been already shown to be both a liar and a hypocrite.

    4. You can't take back or refute something after you've been exposed as defending it. You defended Kravitz article in total until I exposed his flip flop. Now you are challenging his flip-flop?? LOL!!! (remind you of anyone) Sorry TP. No words can take fraud out of the definition of you.

    RSPONSE: Flip-flops? Thats' all you ever do, besides whine and engage in personal attacks. You're the one who initially stated that professional sportswriters' opinions should be respected above those of fans. But, because a professional now no longer accepts your warped views of Christ in cleats...you're having a tantrum.

    5. Ok - lets revisit specifics:

    my comment: "Depending on your perspective, it is either irresponsible or par for the course for a columnist, whose very livlihood depends on his use of words, to make an arguement laying blame for the colts failures at the feet of the offense while in the same column stating that they are FORCED TO BE SO RIDICULOUSLY EFFICIENT."

    YOUR RESPONSE: Nice try at cut and pasting, son...but no cigar. If you go back and re-read the paragraph you cited, Kravitz says that "could the defense be better...absolutely"...(and if they were better), Manning (would) get more possessions every game, and not be forced to be so efficient. Thats' true of every offense. In years past, that might have been true...but not this year.

    Didn't you say the same thing I did? LOL!!! (remind you of anyone). I cut and pasted verbatim words. YOU ADDED YOUR OWN WORDS (AND IT DIDN'T EVEN HELP YOUR COMPREHENSION), CUT THE DESCRIPTIVE WORDS (THESE ARE KEY FOR A PROFESSIONAL WRITER AND YET YOUR REMOVAL OF THEM DID NOT DIMINISH THE POINT) AND THE POINT STILL STANDS. Thanks for defending my point. Kravitz point - The defense was not good enough that Manning had the luxury of being less than "so ridiculously efficient".

    RESPONSE: I don't accept your cut and paste premise...and I'm not going to repeat the same rejections of your delusional views that I listed in my last post.

    Beyond that you lost the premise of the article (and I don't think you were smart enough to do this on purpose) which was to point out the colts underachievement over many years as opposed to simply this year. Yet, you finished your paragraph by commenting only about this year.

    RESPONSE: Do you even know what the word "premise" means? The point Kravitz made was that the much celebrated Indy offense, not the defense, failed in San Diego. In fact, the offense, led by a supposedly all-world QB, has been able to muster only a disgraceful 13.6 points per playoff game. Who is to blame for that, Bob Sanders?...Dwight Freeney? Ron Meeks? Me?Stop covering up for the real culprit...the alleged NFL MVP.

    [/Quote]
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Pretty entertaining thread guys! Things got more interesting around here once the administrators stopped deleting all coherent threads from opposing team fans. Now idiot and genius alike can post! Here's my take:

    We'll never have sufficient evidence to compare Manning and Brady directly. Pat fans have, of course, taken the position that since SB rings are the only important thing in football, Brady must be considered the better QB. (Understandably, they've taken the position that would favor their QB.) Colt fans have, of course, looked to statistics and pointed out that (with the exeption of last year) Peyton has statistically outperformed Brady every single year of their respective careers and has three MVPs to Brady's one. (Once again, this is understandably the position that favors their QB.)
    I would also add that the two QBs have had vastly different expectations over the years. Peyton has largely had mediocre defenses over the years and is asked to put up huge numbers on offense to compensate. There haven't been a lot of drives where he can afford to throw the ball away and try again next series. Instead, he's had to force the ball in there and make something happen. And he's veen VERY good at that.

    By contrast, Brady usually had a very good defense and was more often asked to avoid mistakes. He seldomly had to make something happen. He was also never given the supporting cast that Manning was, and had to make do with fewer weapons. Brady has been VERY good at what he was asked to do. Plus, when he finally was asked to put up big numbers and given weapons to do so last year, he delivered in a big way.

    They are both great QBs and deserve to be in the HoF. The Colt fan in me believes that if people weren't mis-classifying Super Bowl victories as an individual statistic (rather than a team stat), no one would make the arguement that Brady is even half the QB as Peyton...but who cares, they're both great.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from steelerjim58. Show steelerjim58's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]. Manning's stats are padded due to the 'underneath' passing game the Colts employ. You are way off base. And, as Tex has pointed out, Warner's stats are better in every category when it counts most. Warner is way better than Manning.[/Quote]
    But of course, brady's stats aren't "padded" by the dink & dunk fest that is the patriots offense??????
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    We have more than sufficient evidence to compare the two. Brady finally got offensive players that are competitive with the team the Colts feild every season and responded by putting up record breaking numbers.

    Brady never had the offensive players that Manning had. Period. Statistical arguements of that nature overlook the obvious glaring fact that Manning has been surrounded by the cream of the crop talent his entire career.

    The Colts offense over the last decade will probably send four or five players to the HOF that aren't named Manning.

    Edge, Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Saturday.

    There will likely be one non-Brady HOfer and that was Dillon who came to NE to win.

    All told, their average season is not as disparate as you are making it out to be. Half the QB?

    Brady's average season:
    3778 28 TD 12 INT 63% 92.9

    Manning's average season:
    4148 30 TD 15 INT 64.4% 94.7

    And that completely disregards the fact that Manning played his entire career in a home dome. A situation that is statistically conducive to performance as the weather becomes a factor.

    And as far as this pressure to win, please point out the shootouts that Manning lost. His playoff losses are close games where the opposing team scores 24 points or less and the Colts offense can't move the ball in crucial situations. In many ways the loss to the Chargers was very typical. He had chances at the goal line and couldn't pucnh it through, and had the ball late in the game and couldn't get a game ending first down.

    This bit about defenses that keep letting him down, where he is a captain that goes down with his ship fighting is pure fiction. And most sports writers realize this after watching him.

    There isn't a single QB related activity that Brady doesn't do better than Manning. He throws a better ball, he has better footwork, he has better pocket awareness, a quicker release and makes better decisions.

    Watching the two play in a neutral colored jersey and the decision would be obivious the minute you see Brady take a three step drop and end up in a mechanically perfect position to stick a throw, and you see Manning take an awkward baby step drop where he ends up flat footed. It starts there and ends there.

    That is the secret of clutch, being better. Not being surrounded by world beating talent. It is that simple. You can take Steve Young and give him Montana's offense, but he won't win the big one as often because he made poorer decisions more often.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    He seldomly had to make something happen.

    Ok the only way to settle that is to look up how many 4th quarter comebacks Brady and Manning each led. Somebody look it up, I'm too lazy.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Once again, a Colts fan trying to spin this his way. Nobody is arguing that Manning is awful. But facts are facts. So Manning has put up better numbers than Brady in the regular season? That's all nice and fine. Only an idiod would notadmit Manning has had much superior weapons than Brady...until 2007. Then, once Brady had as good a supporting cast on offense he totally blew the doors off Peyton! Now if we look solely at the postseason there is a HUGE gap. Brady is 14-3 in postseason play, Manning is 7-8. I don't have the actual stats andy, but Tom's numbers for TDs, INTs, and passer rating is superior to Manning's. So while Peyton can manage to squeeze by teams like the Texans (actually last season it was Rosenfels who handed him the game), Tom Brady has managed to step up his game against stiffer competition. Only against the Chargers are Tom's numbers "down" (and I guess the Broncos, too), but still the Patriots have managed to overcome this in January against SD. I think that even were Manning to have the Steelers defense, still he would underperform in the playoffs. Both these guys will have busts in Canton eventually. But if the objective in the league is to win championships (and not pile up regular season stats), then Brady is by far the better of the two. Your efforts to defend your QB are noble, but simply not reasonable!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]
    But of course, brady's stats aren't "padded" by the dink & dunk fest that is the patriots offense??????[/Quote]

    Jimbo:

    Are you talking about the same offense that Tom has repeatedly used to shred the vaunted Steelers' defense over the years?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote] Your efforts to defend your QB are noble, but simply not reasonable![/Quote]

    Bub:

    Theres' nothing "noble" about denying facts, or whining and making excuses when these facts are brought to light. No matter how Dogg, a/k/a "m", twists and turns, he can't get away from the fact that Manning has a losing record in the postseason...and that he has led his vaunted offense to less than 2 TDs per playoff game. Jon Kitna and the Detroit Lions could have probably done as well.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from steelerjim58. Show steelerjim58's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    Jimbo:

    Are you talking about the same offense that Tom has repeatedly used to shred the vaunted Steelers' defense over the years?[/Quote]
    Gee, why so defensive? I'm not saying it's not effective, boring as hell, but effective. I was just responding to the post. I'm guessing that brady would be in the top 2-3 in yac yards this decade. Agree or disagree?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]He seldomly had to make something happen.

    Ok the only way to settle that is to look up how many 4th quarter comebacks Brady and Manning each led. Somebody look it up, I'm too lazy.[/Quote]

    Great QBs are measured by how well they play in big games...not by how many passing yards they can get against the Detroit Lions of the world.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    It is a lot more simple than that.

    These arguments about Manning are simply false from a logical standpoint.

    They start by taking credit for everything that goes right, and then end by dismissing everything that goes wrong.

    Either Manning is a product of a system that had imense talent and that system broke down in the playoffs, or he simply padded stats in the regular season and choked.

    Stating that his playoff failures are a string of defensive failures is patently false, because he has been in low scoring games where his poor decisions led to failure. The games where the Colts' defense gets carved up have been the games that Manning has traditionally come out on top.

    You can't point to the regular season statistics which factor in the immense quality of talent on his offense and the 6-10 games any team will play against bottom feeding defenses without pointing to the nearly 1to 1 TD/INT ratio in the playoffs and the 1:1 record.

    It is either the team winning and creating those stats and then losing (which invalidates all the statistical arguements), or Manning creating stats and then choking (which invalidates the arguement that his team let him down).

    Pick your poison but any other argument is simply cognitive dissonance. The bottom line is that it is probably a.) and that Manning is not as good as Colt's fans have made him out to be, and really fattens up on weak defenses only to fail when he is faced with a defense that doesn't give him easy plays or is prepared for the Colts' timing offense.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]
    Gee, why so defensive? I'm not saying it's not effective, boring as hell, but effective. I was just responding to the post. I'm guessing that brady would be in the top 2-3 in yac yards this decade. Agree or disagree?[/Quote]

    The "dink and dunk" is used to supplement the running game. Teams have little choice but to go to this style of offense, in light of all the "cover-two" - deny the big play pass coverage...and to combat the blitz.

    Besides, you run an offense that takes advantage of the strengths of your skilled players. The Pats have been blessed with great slot receivers, such as Troy Brown and Wes Welker. Tom Brady never has played with a deep threat WR until Randy Moss arrived. Deion Branch was more of a slot/possession guy...although he did hurt the Steelers deep in the 2004 AFC title game.

    Good luck on Sunday, Jim.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    All - I am no longer generally arguing manning points. There may be a little here and there, but I said long ago and stand by my assertion that Manning is not to be blamed for the last 2 playoff losses. If you want to go back to before then, then it has to be the 05 season and before as the colts won the sb in the 06 season.

    However, these back and forths with Texas Pat are more to show his inability to argue a point, to show his ability to flip flop and backtrack, to demonstrate that he will edit to attempt to better make his point (even as he fails at doing it).
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    " They start by taking credit for everything that goes right, and then end by dismissing everything that goes wrong. "


    Thatnks for nutshelling that for us, Z.

    You can tailor stats to support any crazy point it strikes your fancy to make.

    Watch them play.

    There is no debate.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]All - I am no longer generally arguing manning points. There may be a little here and there, but I said long ago and stand by my assertion that Manning is not to be blamed for the last 2 playoff losses. If you want to go back to before then, then it has to be the 05 season and before as the colts won the sb in the 06 season.

    RESPONSE: Of course you want to distance yourself from discussing Manning's latest choke. The facts are overwhelmingly against you. Please explain why the guy you consider to be an all-world QB has a losing record in the postseason...and has "led" his team to less than 2 TDs per game, for each playoff game?

    The back and forths with Texas Pat are more to show his inability to argue a point, to show his ability to flip flop and backtrack, to demonstrate that he will edit to attempt to better make his point (even as he fails at doing it).

    RESPONSE: Dogg, a/k/a "m"...you have no credibility. Everybody here knows by now that you are allergic to facts.


    [/Quote]
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    QB YAC, and Ben Roethlisbirger is routinely near the top of this list, is a misleading stat.

    It assumes that it is harder to throw a pass of medium range than it is to throw a pass of short range with superb timing. This is categorically false.
    A throw 15 yards across the field across your body is much harder than a throw 15 yards down field when you can step into the throw. Ask anyone who has coached or played Qb and they will tell you the same.

    In other words, QB's don't benefit from YAC as much as they are capable of placing the ball into the receiver's hands in stride. And this is extremely important when running swing passes and slants that take extremely good timing to produce extra yardage. If the ball is too late, too high or too low to be an easy catch, you get no gain or a pick, and if it is a second early it is an incomplete pass.

    But for arguement sake here are the YACs of their favorite targets over the last eight seasons:

    3.3 Marvin Harrison
    3.8 Reggie Wayne
    3.4 Deion Branch (Moss 2007 YAC of 3.0)
    3.5 David Givens (Gaffney 2007 YAC of 3.7)

    4.3 Brandon Stokely (Anthony Gonzalez YAC of 4.0)
    4.5 Troy Brown (Welker 2007 YAC of 5.7)

    5.2 Dallas Clark
    4.0 Ben Watson

    8.7 Faulk
    7.8 Edge/Addai* both are at 7.8

    Keep in mind that a 1 yard difference in YAC only results in 100 yards extra per 100 catches. FWIW, if there is a big difference that these stats don't bear out (and I sincerely doubt there is), it is easily relinquished by the fact that Harrison, Wayne and Clark are far better receivers than anyone who played with Brady until 2007 and will net more completions and force more favorable matchups across the board than someone like David Givens.
     
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