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More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Ok -

    First off, Texas Pat has personal delusions of grandeur and thinks his opinions are irrefutable and factual even amongst his own Pat posting friends. He does not concede points, even when he is wrong.

    The basis of this thread was to expose Peyton Manning as overrated by using an article which shows Warner's statistics better than Manning's. We'll get to that, but the thread title begs the question, where is he rated? Only within the last few posts did we find out that TP thinks others think Manning is one of the best of all time. Which means what? How many QB's have played in the NFL. TP ranked Manning 13th. I'd say that puts him up there with the best ever. So at its base, I think TP's thread like TP is full of hot air.

    Back to the article. First, I've never addressed the manning/warner question. I certainly think Warner deserves some consideration as one of the best ever. Only his years as a back up will hurt him. But the guy has 2 mvp's, and will play in his 3rd SB. He merits consideration. I'd say they are at least equals.

    Nine different posters said they would take Manning over Warner. Whether I agree or not does not matter. These people disagree with Texas Pat and the article he used. That matters.

    Again with the article, while there are plenty of statistics to make the point, as many have said statistics can be used to make any point. this begs the question why is the author making the point? Who know what his agenda is, but I did notice that his outfit (CHFF) is based in Quincy, MA. He writes for the Boston Herald. Didn't all pats fans permanantly repudiate everything associated with the Herald? another CHFF writer wrote for a different mass paper. One CHFF writer is from Quincy. Another played lacrosse with belichick in college. One might quickly surmise that these guys might be pro-pats which wouldn't make it a stretch to label them anti-colts, but maybe its just a coincidence.

    TP then switched to an indy columnist who attempted to suggest that maybe the colts should get rid of the offensive coaches and not the DC who resigned under pressure. I read the article again and there really wasn't an indictment of Manning in this article as TP would have you believe. This is what TP said.


    Heres' yet another excellent article from Indy sports columnist Bob Kravitz, which criticizes the Meeks firing...and lays the blame for the latest Indy choke exactly where it belongs...at the feet of Mr. Wonderful and his OL

    The truth is, Kravitz mentions the SD game only once, and he does not cite manning as the problem, just TP who does not read nor comprehend very well.

    Texas Pat also likes to use facts that others may not choose to explore. On 4 different occassions on this thread TP mentions that Manning led teams averaged less than 2 tds in his 15 playoff games. This is absolutely incorrect. If my calculation is correct, in Manning's 15 games, the Colts averaged 22.8 pts per game. Check it.

    Here are his quotes:
    1.has been able to muster only a disgraceful 13.6 points per playoff game...2.and that he has led his vaunted offense to less than 2 TDs per playoff game...3.and has "led" his team to less than 2 TDs per game, for each playoff game?...4.His record in the playoffs is a concrete fact...as is the 13.6 points per game average per playoff game.

    I am sure this was mere oversight, but don't let TP spew facts. Make him prove it.

    Folks, I think Manning is a great QB. Brady has certainly done more. Manning has had to do more given a poor defense, but still Brady has been far more successful. That said there is no other QB over the last 10 years that has performed as consistantly well as manning which is why he's earned 3 mvps. And while superbowl victories are the easy and only measuring stick a pats fan may use since no one can compare in this decade, a team must first get to the playoffs which Manning has done more effectively than any QB. Where manning will find himself compared to other qb's at the end of his career is anybody's question. His body of work, now, however, makes him as good as anyone in the last 10 years save maybe Brady.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wizardsjag. Show Wizardsjag's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]



    antoinew:

    You've got to be kidding.

    1.) Tom Brady;

    2.) Joe Montana;

    3.) Bart Starr;

    4.) Otto Graham;

    5.) John Unitas;

    6.) John Elway;

    7.) Terry Bradshaw;

    8.) Roger Staubach;

    9.) Dan Marino;

    10.) Brett Favre

    11.) Sammy Baugh

    12.) Kurt Warner

    13.) Peyton Manning

    [/Quote]




    My Top 10 on QB's that I got to watch play.

    1. Montana
    2. Brady
    3. Staubach
    4. Elway
    5. Favre
    6. Bradshaw
    7. P. Manning
    8. Marino
    9. Young
    10. Tarkenton
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Where is Dan Fouts on any of these lists?

    Fouts was awesome.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Why does Master Po call you Pissmeyer?





    hee hee hee
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Texas Pat - there was no topic change. I pointed out what the thread was about and responded to it. You have been proven to be obstinate, fickle (how can you be both - only to because you stand by a very refutable point), misleading, general, lazy, and a liar, and all because you are not man enough to admit your mistakes.

    Peyton Manning is not overrated. There is only 1 QB (and this incluldes Warner) during Manning's 10 years that has at least his resume. Brady. Don't know how you can be overrated as one of the top 2.

    Sorry but Manning didn't choke in the last 2 games, and since this is manning specific, I have been very specific about that. You don't agree? The prior season was his SB - 4 wins. Before then, AS I SAID BEFORE, you can argue as you like. But I am not giving you that point. Prove to me that he did choke, and don't just say because he lost.

    In the SD game, if you had told me that Manning would have an average starting position of like the 6 yard line, I would have said, yes 17 points might be right. You don't like to give credit where credit is due. The SD punting game killed the colts.

    I hate to tell you this pat, but you have to play a season before you get to the playoffs. In 30% of Peyton's he was the MVP, and that is a fact. In 2 of those seasons he was recognized for getting his team to a place without great help from his D. In those two years, his stats weren't gaudy, just very effective given the circumstance. He had 1 gaudy year like Brady did. No shame there.

    You put up what ifs about other QB's. We can't know what would happen if they played today, but all of them would have a different cast of characters due to Free agency.

    Has anyone ever come to the conclusion that the QB can also make the receiver better? Manning and his receivers work constantly to get better. The colts chose to resign them. Unlike the pats with brady's early receivers. Who knows what those receivers would have been had they stayed. I'd venture to say that Wayne would have been a decent #2 somewhere else. Stokely hasn't been anything since he left. Clark got his 1st probowl this year. Harrison has been spectacular, which is incredible given his size.

    His O line has been effective, but they have rotated. The only 2 constants were Saturday and Glenn (who has now been gone 2 years). But this is no different than the pats. Put a good pass blocking o line in front of a good QB and he will find receivers All pro or not.

    1. Don't know if Johnny U is better than Manning. Don't have the historical knowledge.

    2. Neither Staubach nor Bradshaw played in Free agency. Both had the benefit of whole team continuity (not just offense but also defense)

    3. Baugh and Graham - different eras incomparable - and if you are going to say such glowing things about them why does brady get the nod? oh, because you are a pats fan.

    4. Marino - if championships are the decider, then he can't be there. But you know that. You will lie to make a point. You've proven that. Yes, clayton and duper were bad receivers.

    Don't know that I have ever, EVER heard the media say that Manning is the best ever. May have heard them say that when he is done he would be considered amongst them. Have heard them say he may hold most of the passing records when he is done. But best ever now - You are hearing ghosts.

    The one thing about pats fans that I don't get is that they love the "just play football" mentality of their team, but then hate when they are not talked about in every reporters breath. Reporters have to have news and when there is no news because nothing is said (this is the pats way), then a reporter has nothing to talk about. Yet you complain and complain when reporters talk about other teams. They do it because they have material. They have sound bites and interviews, etc. Take your SB's and quiet ways and be proud of that, but don't condemn the reporters when they have nothing to say about the pats because they were given nothing.

    Texas Pat, so no comment on your constant lying throughout this thread?

    Nothing at all about misconstruing an article?

    You have again exposed yourself as the very kind of troll you hate.

    Funny that you like to think of yourself as reputable.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    TP

    You are just as dim witted now as you were before.

    I should have said that I cannot speak to Bart Starr either. Tell you what rather than have me look it up why don't you provide some more of your false statistics to prove your point. You made it not me. Don't make me prove your point prove it yourself. Otherwise it is all opinion.

    No I cannot argue with Montana, Elway, or Brady. Although Brady is going to need to play another 5 years before he will end up in the same breath with these guys. Why, because longevity matters. If this injury affects him (which I do not think it will) then he will his status will drop.

    So lets see, manning had good weather in the SB, agreed? Had good weather in Baltimore the same year? Won @ KC in 03. Bad weather losses - these are assumptions - @NYJ 02, @NE 03, @NE04. That's 3 and 3.

    I did some looking up and Manning has definitely had some bad games. At least 2. But here is a more critical point in these losses - rushing 99 @TN - edge 56, george 162; 2000 @ Mia - edge 107, smith 209; 2002 @NYJ indy 52, nyj 169; 2004 @NE - Edge 39, NE 200; 2005 Pit - Indy 58, Pit 113; 2007 SD - Indy 50, SD 99; 2008 @SD Indy 65, SD 154.

    Only in 03 did Indy run evenly with NE and Manning really stunk it up.

    In Indy's wins, the rushing comparison has generally been more even. Indy won 3 of them significantly. As good as a QB is his offense needs to be able to run the ball and the defense needs to be able to stop the run. Seldom does pass only win games. I would bet we would find this to be true with Brady also.

    As for great skilled players, I don't buy this. The pats could have chosen to keep their WR's to create continuity. they chose not to. I say manning could have done similar things that Brady has done with the receivers Brady has had.

    As for protection, what great QB had bad protection? Silly comment TP.

    Finally, give up on the less than 2 TD's per game for manning in the P.O.s. I already refuted it with facts. That you continue with this shows your willingness to blatantly lie to make a point and that puts you in the same league as your favorites Toga and Hess. No better.

    By the way - the grasshopper would have kicked your a--. You are all smoke and mirrors. No depth. Just a facade. You are Madoff. No value. None.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]You don't know about Johnny Unitas and you think the Marks brothers were bad receivers? And you expect some serious football talk????

    Johnny Unitas will probably always be in the top three just because his play revolutionized football itself.

    And blaming a playoff loss on a punter just sounds silly. Indy started inside the 10 four times, three were 3 and out, one was a 91 yard Td on blown coverage. Their defense played awesome, their offense couldn't buy a first down.

    Most notably when it was 3rd and 2 and Manning had the right play called and couldn't get it out in time. Even Dungy said that.

    He let his defense down after a stupendous performance. You can't hold the second best offense in the NFL beneath 20 points for five quarters.[/Quote]

    Totally agree wth you that the marks brothers were excellent (I was being facetious, because TP said Marino didn't have great receivers). don't know why TP doesn't agree. Probably just to argue.

    Youtube the play that was called on the 3rd and 2 and you will see Manning's receivers covered and an unblocked blitzer.
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Well said Z. BTW, I'm staying at a holiday inn express next month, but don't get your hopes up.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]
    Brady's average season:
    3778 28 TD 12 INT 63% 92.9

    Manning's average season:
    4148 30 TD 15 INT 64.4% 94.7
    [/Quote]

    Now quote that average prior to Brady's career year. If I remember right, his career QB rating was less than 89, and you know Brady's yardage average came up hundreds of yards and his TD average increased by 3 or 4 based on his one monster year. It'd be interesting to see what happens to their stats if you took out both of their career years. It's kind of funny to hear a Pat fan arguing QB stats, since most of you spent years making the case that stats meant nothing!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wizardsjag. Show Wizardsjag's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]I am not arguing stats, except to reufte the nonsense that outside of the playoffs Brady isn't half the QB Manning is.

    Stats aren't meaningless, but they need to be placed in context. No one would argue that Steve Young was better than Montana, but his average stats look better because he played on a more talented offense.

    It is the same with Smith versus Sanders. I don't know a single knowledgable fan that would take Smith over Barry, but statistically Smith finished on top.

    People discredit Manning's stats sometimes because dropping 30 spots on inept defenses like Cincy, Det, Jax and Hou to inflate his rating is meaningless when his postseason rating against teams that actually compete withers to an 85 rating.

    They are statistically neck and neck, with a slight edge to Manning despite playing on the most talented offense of the decade, and in a dome,which has a dramatic effect that cannot be understated. Historically offenses that play in domes have enjoyed significant statistical advantages over those that do not. Brady's career game averages skyrocket when he plays in a dome.

    It really reflects well on Brady when you beg those comparisons.[/Quote]

    <br />

    Your right, stats are part of the equation but only one variable. Big time performances in big games, and performances when the chips are stacked against them is what I use to judge past QB's I've watched. That's why guys like Staubach, Brady, Montana, and Elway are higher than Manning, Young, Marino, and Tarkenton. All were great QB's, just I'd take the first 4 over the last 4 in a big time game/situation.
     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote] Dogg:

    Here I am, trying to be civil with you, and have a reasoned discussion...and you still insist on name-calling and personal attacks.

    But, I understand. I realize many posters who know that they are on the losing end of a discussion often resort to these types of tactics.[/Quote]

    TP - you can't have a reasoned conversation when you continue to lie. I identified a lie that you presented about Manning's points per game in the playoffs, yet you stated it again after it was exposed.

    That's not reasonable. That's toga-ish, hess-ish. That is lying and not caring - Madoff-ish. If you don't like it, clean up your act.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated


    Z, I watched over and over. The receiver at the top of the screen is wayne. Clark runs right into Wayne's receiving lane. Manning has no chance to throw that ball without risking an Int. It was a poorly executed play. Sure Manning is to pick up the blitzer, but that shouldn't matter on a quick slant. Additionally the blitzer is unabated. A quick slant is a hot route.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]


    The "Marks Brothers" were nowhere near as talented as Wayne and Harrison. Furthermore, Peyton has TE Dallas Clark. Can you even name who Marino's TE was?

    Marino made Duper and Clayton, like Tom Brady made Deion Branch. But, Peyton didn't make Harrison and Wayne stars. Unlike Branch and the "Marks Brothers", they, along with Clark, were #1 draft choices.[/Quote]

    LOL - I could say the ocean is blue and you'd say its orange and supply some lie as your proof. Comedy.
     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]
    TP - yes manning has a losing record in the playoffs and that is irrefutable. I don't blame him for the last 2 losses, but they are losses nonetheless. I am still very happy to have him as the colts QB and would not trade him for any other QB in the NFL.

    Ahh, so now you are changing your statistic about Manning's points in the playoffs. Rather than admit your blatant lie, you just change the statistic. Nice bait and switch attempt. What a tool. That's pathetic.

    Incidentally - I did respond to your question. try reading.

    Which begs the question - How come you do not respond to my questions about your lies and poor comprehension? Please answer the question.

    Why would the greatest QB of all-time with an 18 point lead and 31 minutes to play not be able to win a critical game against an overhyped underachieving team in a dome where he plays better? - Because, sometimes it just happens. Same goes for manning.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wizardsjag. Show Wizardsjag's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]


    The "Marks Brothers" were nowhere near as talented as Wayne and Harrison. Furthermore, Peyton has TE Dallas Clark. Can you even name who Marino's TE was?

    Marino made Duper and Clayton, like Tom Brady made Deion Branch. But, Peyton didn't make Harrison and Wayne stars. Unlike Branch and the "Marks Brothers", they, along with Clark, were #1 draft choices.[/Quote]


    I'd take Dallas Clark over Bruce Hardy/Ferrell Edmunds/Joe Rose any day. Plus the running game of the Colts was way better than what Marino had with the Dolphins. The running game and defense was always the achilles heel for Miami.
     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote][/Quote]

    TP - yes manning has a losing record in the playoffs and that is irrefutable. I don't blame him for the last 2 losses, but they are losses nonetheless. I am still very happy to have him as the colts QB and would not trade him for any other QB in the NFL.

    RESPONSE: The facctsa are also iirrefutable that he has averaged less than 2 TDs per game in all 8 of Indy's losses. Why won't you acknowledge that? Is that acceptable for the "greatest QB of all-time"?
    No one here is saying that Manning sucks. Just saying that hes' overrated, because he's nothing more than an average QB in the post season.

    Why would the greatest QB of all-time with an 18 point lead and 31 minutes to play not be able to win a critical game against an overhyped underachieving team in a dome where he plays better?

    RESPONSE: Thats' easy...because the underachieving team and overrated QB had the referees in their back pocket....and the Patriots' defense was ravished by injuries.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ha Ha - leave out the lies and respond only to what you can answer. Don't answer the lies just retool your arguement. You are a p-ssy of colossal proportions.

    Tell you what - I'll respond to your questions as I have once you admit that you intentionally lied to try to make manning look worse. Until then, I will be just like you. Respond only to that which I desire.

    So, I guess if I said that the pats won their 04 game because they had the refs in their pockets which vaulted the pats to the sb, then we would be even?
     
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