More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Well said Z. BTW, I'm staying at a holiday inn express next month, but don't get your hopes up.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Not true.

    In 2006 the Colts running game did take off and propel victory to the tune of 151 yards a game. But all that proves is that Manning needs the best rushing and best defense in the playoffs to win. Is that really the best of anything? It means that any QB could have led that team.

    In 2001 and 2003 Ne averaged only 89 and 111 yards a game. The only season he had run support even close to that was 2004 when it was a fait accompli.

    The bottom line is that people always gear up to stop the run against Indy. They always will as well. Untill Manning demonstrates that he can convert thrid and long and make plays against a good rush they always will.

    Honestly, I don't worry about Manning when NE plays them. It is that simple. If he doesn't get killer support he won't beat you. OTOH, no matter how bad things are I always know Brady can pull one out of his hat if he has too.

    Brady has such success because he can throw well in the face of a bltiz and make teams like Pitt pay dearly. Manning can't do that. He is average at checking down and has below average pocket awareness. When a good defense challenges him he makes mistakes instead of sticking them.

    Like Tom says, bltizes are great because they are your opportunities for a big play. I don't think Manning has ever seen it that way.

    If Manning QB'd NE they wouldn't have had one SB. Every post season has had one or two games where Tom was the difference in a way that Manning can't be.

    Moreover, if Brady Qbed the Colts over this stretch they would likely have two and be on their way to a third this season.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    1.) Joe Montana -- No one tops Joe Cool yet. All he ever did was win. He had a host of efficieny records that were a decade ahead of their time. And won two superbowls with a guy named Clark as his number one option. If the Niners had kept him on, he could have had five trohpies, as he was much better in the clutch than Young.

    2.) Tom Brady -- Is there another QB with a better playoff record? Well Bart Starr, but other than that no. The guy made players like David Givens and Antwain Smith look like stars for a day. When he is done, he will likely have all of Montana's playoff records broken, and perhaps equal or surpass the three Superbowls.

    3 a.) Sammy Baugh -- Forward pass, enough said. Although it bears mentioning that
    he set a ton of records for his era, including a 70% completiion percentage in an era when 50% was good. Two Championships in a time when there were crazy dominant powerhouses like Chicago is nothing to snuff at, expecially when your offense is basically revolutionary.

    3.b.) Johnny Unitas -- Was the prototype for the modern NFL quartback and basically owned the record book until the 1980's. Wasn't the prettiest passer, but called his own plays, and not in the fake way that modern QB's do it at the line, but actually called a play in the huddle.

    4.) Otto Graham -- Statistically ahead of his time. Won three championships in six seasons. That is a wicked .500 record, which is impressive.

    5.) Bart Starr -- Always played well in the big game. But was never a pass first QB in a era when running was the only thing. His trophies are impressive, but winning them in one round isn't.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]
    Brady's average season:
    3778 28 TD 12 INT 63% 92.9

    Manning's average season:
    4148 30 TD 15 INT 64.4% 94.7
    [/Quote]

    Now quote that average prior to Brady's career year. If I remember right, his career QB rating was less than 89, and you know Brady's yardage average came up hundreds of yards and his TD average increased by 3 or 4 based on his one monster year. It'd be interesting to see what happens to their stats if you took out both of their career years. It's kind of funny to hear a Pat fan arguing QB stats, since most of you spent years making the case that stats meant nothing!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    I am not arguing stats, except to reufte the nonsense that outside of the playoffs Brady isn't half the QB Manning is.

    Stats aren't meaningless, but they need to be placed in context. No one would argue that Steve Young was better than Montana, but his average stats look better because he played on a more talented offense.

    It is the same with Smith versus Sanders. I don't know a single knowledgable fan that would take Smith over Barry, but statistically Smith finished on top.

    People discredit Manning's stats sometimes because dropping 30 spots on inept defenses like Cincy, Det, Jax and Hou to inflate his rating is meaningless when his postseason rating against teams that actually compete withers to an 85 rating.

    They are statistically neck and neck, with a slight edge to Manning despite playing on the most talented offense of the decade, and in a dome,which has a dramatic effect that cannot be understated. Historically offenses that play in domes have enjoyed significant statistical advantages over those that do not. Brady's career game averages skyrocket when he plays in a dome.

    It really reflects well on Brady when you beg those comparisons.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wizardsjag. Show Wizardsjag's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]I am not arguing stats, except to reufte the nonsense that outside of the playoffs Brady isn't half the QB Manning is.

    Stats aren't meaningless, but they need to be placed in context. No one would argue that Steve Young was better than Montana, but his average stats look better because he played on a more talented offense.

    It is the same with Smith versus Sanders. I don't know a single knowledgable fan that would take Smith over Barry, but statistically Smith finished on top.

    People discredit Manning's stats sometimes because dropping 30 spots on inept defenses like Cincy, Det, Jax and Hou to inflate his rating is meaningless when his postseason rating against teams that actually compete withers to an 85 rating.

    They are statistically neck and neck, with a slight edge to Manning despite playing on the most talented offense of the decade, and in a dome,which has a dramatic effect that cannot be understated. Historically offenses that play in domes have enjoyed significant statistical advantages over those that do not. Brady's career game averages skyrocket when he plays in a dome.

    It really reflects well on Brady when you beg those comparisons.[/Quote]

    <br />

    Your right, stats are part of the equation but only one variable. Big time performances in big games, and performances when the chips are stacked against them is what I use to judge past QB's I've watched. That's why guys like Staubach, Brady, Montana, and Elway are higher than Manning, Young, Marino, and Tarkenton. All were great QB's, just I'd take the first 4 over the last 4 in a big time game/situation.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    Totally agree wth you that the marks brothers were excellent (I was being facetious, because TP said Marino didn't have great receivers). don't know why TP doesn't agree. Probably just to argue.

    Youtube the play that was called on the 3rd and 2 and you will see Manning's receivers covered and an unblocked blitzer.[/Quote]


    The "Marks Brothers" were nowhere near as talented as Wayne and Harrison. Furthermore, Peyton has TE Dallas Clark. Can you even name who Marino's TE was?

    Marino made Duper and Clayton, like Tom Brady made Deion Branch. But, Peyton didn't make Harrison and Wayne stars. Unlike Branch and the "Marks Brothers", they, along with Clark, were #1 draft choices.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote] Dogg:

    Here I am, trying to be civil with you, and have a reasoned discussion...and you still insist on name-calling and personal attacks.

    But, I understand. I realize many posters who know that they are on the losing end of a discussion often resort to these types of tactics.[/Quote]

    TP - you can't have a reasoned conversation when you continue to lie. I identified a lie that you presented about Manning's points per game in the playoffs, yet you stated it again after it was exposed.

    That's not reasonable. That's toga-ish, hess-ish. That is lying and not caring - Madoff-ish. If you don't like it, clean up your act.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    TP - you can't have a reasoned conversation when you continue to lie. I identified a lie that you presented about Manning's points per game in the playoffs, yet you stated it again after it was exposed.

    That's not reasonable. That's toga-ish, hess-ish. That is lying and not caring - Madoff-ish. If you don't like it, clean up your act.[/Quote]

    Again you wish to name call, and run away from the facts. The facts are that Mr. Wonderful has a losing record in the playoffs, and is a known choke artist. By your own admission, even in some of the playoff games he won, he didn't play well....and, in the games that he lost, his team averaged under 2 TDs per game.

    Incidently, you never responded to my question as to whether Manning having poor field position was a legitimate excuse for him putting up just 17 points against the Chargers? Apparently, you and Peyton have something in common...you both like to make excuses for his failings.

    Why would having poor field position be an insurmountable challenge for "one of the greatest QBs of all-time"...and the league MVP?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    They certainly are part of it. But like I said, context.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated


    Z, I watched over and over. The receiver at the top of the screen is wayne. Clark runs right into Wayne's receiving lane. Manning has no chance to throw that ball without risking an Int. It was a poorly executed play. Sure Manning is to pick up the blitzer, but that shouldn't matter on a quick slant. Additionally the blitzer is unabated. A quick slant is a hot route.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]


    The "Marks Brothers" were nowhere near as talented as Wayne and Harrison. Furthermore, Peyton has TE Dallas Clark. Can you even name who Marino's TE was?

    Marino made Duper and Clayton, like Tom Brady made Deion Branch. But, Peyton didn't make Harrison and Wayne stars. Unlike Branch and the "Marks Brothers", they, along with Clark, were #1 draft choices.[/Quote]

    LOL - I could say the ocean is blue and you'd say its orange and supply some lie as your proof. Comedy.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    LOL - I could say the ocean is blue and you'd say its orange and supply some lie as your proof. Comedy.[/Quote]

    By consistently refusing to acknowledge Peyton's obvious shortcomings in playoff games, that is exactly what YOU are doing.

    Why are you refusing to answer this question:

    Is Manning having poor field position a legitimate excuse for him putting up just 17 points against the Chargers? And, if so why would having poor field position be an insurmountable challenge for "one of the greatest QBs of all-time"...and the league MVP?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]
    TP - yes manning has a losing record in the playoffs and that is irrefutable. I don't blame him for the last 2 losses, but they are losses nonetheless. I am still very happy to have him as the colts QB and would not trade him for any other QB in the NFL.

    Ahh, so now you are changing your statistic about Manning's points in the playoffs. Rather than admit your blatant lie, you just change the statistic. Nice bait and switch attempt. What a tool. That's pathetic.

    Incidentally - I did respond to your question. try reading.

    Which begs the question - How come you do not respond to my questions about your lies and poor comprehension? Please answer the question.

    Why would the greatest QB of all-time with an 18 point lead and 31 minutes to play not be able to win a critical game against an overhyped underachieving team in a dome where he plays better? - Because, sometimes it just happens. Same goes for manning.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wizardsjag. Show Wizardsjag's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]


    The "Marks Brothers" were nowhere near as talented as Wayne and Harrison. Furthermore, Peyton has TE Dallas Clark. Can you even name who Marino's TE was?

    Marino made Duper and Clayton, like Tom Brady made Deion Branch. But, Peyton didn't make Harrison and Wayne stars. Unlike Branch and the "Marks Brothers", they, along with Clark, were #1 draft choices.[/Quote]


    I'd take Dallas Clark over Bruce Hardy/Ferrell Edmunds/Joe Rose any day. Plus the running game of the Colts was way better than what Marino had with the Dolphins. The running game and defense was always the achilles heel for Miami.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    I don't know. Mark Clayton and Duper put up numbers that Branch has never touched. I think Branch isn't as good as Mark Clayton for sure. And Marino also played a long time with Irving Fryar who was awesome. But IMO,Marino had offensive talent, especially at WR, altough he never had a RB like James or a TE like Clark.

    But I'm not comparing the Dolphins offense to the Colts. The Colts' offense is likely the best accumulation of talent on one team since the early 1990's 49ers when young could play pitch and catch with Ricky Watters, John Taylor, Jerry Rice and Brent Jones.

    And you have to credit the Indy FO for getting all those talented players in one place via the draft.

    So much of the fins' offensive success was because the entire AFC took fifteen years off in the 1980's and early 1990's. The numbers for all of those players are skewed because the big time defenses and offenses were all in the NFC.

    Aside from Indy and SF in the young years I can't think of another team that had the RB, the TE, and TWO great wideouts.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Dogg:

    The Colts allocated $71mil. of their alotted $123mil. cap space on offense. Yet, they could only muster a feeble 17 points against the Chargers in their playoff choke? Is that acceptable to you?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote][Quote]
    TP - yes manning has a losing record in the playoffs and that is irrefutable. I don't blame him for the last 2 losses, but they are losses nonetheless. I am still very happy to have him as the colts QB and would not trade him for any other QB in the NFL.

    RESPONSE: The facts are also irrefutable that he has averaged less than 2 TDs per game in all 8 of Indy's losses. Why won't you acknowledge that? Is that acceptable for the "greatest QB of all-time"?
    No one here is saying that Manning sucks. Just saying that hes' overrated, because he's nothing more than an average QB in the post season.

    Why would the greatest QB of all-time with an 18 point lead and 31 minutes to play not be able to win a critical game against an overhyped underachieving team in a dome where he plays better?

    RESPONSE: Thats' easy...because the underachieving team and overrated QB had the referees in their back pocket....and the Patriots' defense was ravished by injuries.


    [/Quote]
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    I don't see the lie here.

    Unless everyone got really confused, the point of debate has surrounded the 13.6 ppg in losses and 7-8 record in the playoffs. I don't see how that suddenly turned into a lie. It's a statistic.

    I would even add to it that minus one stomping 41-0 at the hands of the Jets, the teams playing Manning in those losses are averaging 22 ppg. So it is hardly world beating offensive performances that he is up against. These are close games where he loses -- for the most part.

    This season, if you scored 22 ppg you would be the TB Bucs. 19th ranked. into the bottom portion. If you scored 14 ppg (13.6) you would be between the Rams and Bengals at 31st ranked. If you allowed 22 ppg you would be middle of the pack at 17th.

    If your team had a 17th ranked defense and a 31st ranked offense, which would you be inclined to blame for an 0-7 record?

    So 22 -14. He isn't carrying his offense, and oftens times really hurts them with his play.

    As far as the video goes, I have seen Tom Brady nail that pass a hundred times. If it is too hard for Manning, I feel bad, because I would expect my guy to get it done.

    Second, they aren't crossed up, it is a pattern. It is designed to keep DBs seperated. Did you ever play football? It is common stuff that QB
    s look at all the time.

    Moreover, it isn't an INT risk if you put the ball where it is supposed to be. Lead the reciever by a few steps and put it down. Sure if you throw it behing the player the Db can step up and try to make a play, but lets be serious that isn't elite coverage by any stretch.

    But like I said, Manning isn't good at squeezing the ball, and a ton of his completions come with huge cushions on comeback routes while safeties and CBs bail to stay on top of the fastest WR duo in the league. It gets a lot harder when you have to stick one in there.

    It was poorly executed by Peyton. He choked up and didn't get the ball out. Like I said, Dungy said the same thing.

    And last little bit, a hot route usually goes behind a free blitzer. You don't run a hot route on the side they aren't blitzing from. The whole point of a hot route is to exploit the hole left in coverge. Even then, he didn't audibilize so I doubt it was a hot route.

    If he picks that out you are talking 15-20 or more if the receiver can make a move on the safety.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote][/Quote]

    TP - yes manning has a losing record in the playoffs and that is irrefutable. I don't blame him for the last 2 losses, but they are losses nonetheless. I am still very happy to have him as the colts QB and would not trade him for any other QB in the NFL.

    RESPONSE: The facctsa are also iirrefutable that he has averaged less than 2 TDs per game in all 8 of Indy's losses. Why won't you acknowledge that? Is that acceptable for the "greatest QB of all-time"?
    No one here is saying that Manning sucks. Just saying that hes' overrated, because he's nothing more than an average QB in the post season.

    Why would the greatest QB of all-time with an 18 point lead and 31 minutes to play not be able to win a critical game against an overhyped underachieving team in a dome where he plays better?

    RESPONSE: Thats' easy...because the underachieving team and overrated QB had the referees in their back pocket....and the Patriots' defense was ravished by injuries.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ha Ha - leave out the lies and respond only to what you can answer. Don't answer the lies just retool your arguement. You are a p-ssy of colossal proportions.

    Tell you what - I'll respond to your questions as I have once you admit that you intentionally lied to try to make manning look worse. Until then, I will be just like you. Respond only to that which I desire.

    So, I guess if I said that the pats won their 04 game because they had the refs in their pockets which vaulted the pats to the sb, then we would be even?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]
    Why would the greatest QB of all-time with an 18 point lead and 31 minutes to play not be able to win a critical game against an overhyped underachieving team in a dome where he plays better? - Because, sometimes it just happens. Same goes for manning.[/Quote]

    Except for Manning it "happens" almost every year. Most frequently against weak 1st round opponents.

    No one is perfect. There isn't a single QB who won every game and overcame every obstacle. But you add it up at the end of the day and see who has overcome the most adversity and won the most.

    Manning lacks that signature post-season or game where HE was the difference between the losing and winning. Until he gets that there will always be questions about his performance against better defenses, and crooked eyes at a bunch of stats that mostly mean that INDy can rack em' up on stinky defenses.

    Beyond quibbling about calls, his defense and RBs carried him to that SB win. And critics know this. You could have removed Manning for most other QB's that postseason and it wouldn't have made a tremendous difference to how they won.

    Brady has several of these moments, and huge signature games like the 2003-4 superbowl against the Panthers who gave up only 17 ppg that postseaon, and 68 total. 32 of those points were dealt by Tom Terrific, who carved those guys up despite having his defense crumble in the second half.

    That doesn't even address the drive in 2001, or the 2004 AFC championship game, etc.

    He isn't the GOAT yet, but he is close and has years left to play. He has one more ring than Montana had at his age, and has thrown more TDs and more yards than Montana at his age, and has a 15-3 record compared to a 7-4 record.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]

    Now quote that average prior to Brady's career year. If I remember right, his career QB rating was less than 89, and you know Brady's yardage average came up hundreds of yards and his TD average increased by 3 or 4 based on his one monster year. It'd be interesting to see what happens to their stats if you took out both of their career years. It's kind of funny to hear a Pat fan arguing QB stats, since most of you spent years making the case that stats meant nothing![/Quote]

    OK, I wound up sticking the fork in me!! Ouch!

    Jules... have you ever looked at the difference in stats when Manning plays OUTDOORS? He is a totally different QB, ratings way down. It's been argued, put Brady in a dome with Manning's historical receiver corps and Manning outdoors with Brady's historical receiving corps. hmmm..
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    Ok, Z, two questions:

    1. If Manning is so bad, how did he pick us apart in the second half of the 2006 AFCCG? And how was Brady so unable to sustain drives in that game (we had to go for it on 4th on both of our sustained drives).

    2. If Brady is so great, what happened in the Super Bowl? The Jints only scored 17 points. If you want my opinion, it was his ankle or whatever injury. Some of his passes were uncharacteristically inaccurate.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]I don't see the lie here.

    Unless everyone got really confused, the point of debate has surrounded the 13.6 ppg in losses and 7-8 record in the playoffs. I don't see how that suddenly turned into a lie. It's a statistic.

    I would even add to it that minus one stomping 41-0 at the hands of the Jets, the teams playing Manning in those losses are averaging 22 ppg. So it is hardly world beating offensive performances that he is up against. These are close games where he loses -- for the most part.

    This season, if you scored 22 ppg you would be the TB Bucs. 19th ranked. into the bottom portion. If you scored 14 ppg (13.6) you would be between the Rams and Bengals at 31st ranked. If you allowed 22 ppg you would be middle of the pack at 17th.

    If your team had a 17th ranked defense and a 31st ranked offense, which would you be inclined to blame for an 0-7 record?

    So 22 -14. He isn't carrying his offense, and oftens times really hurts them with his play.

    As far as the video goes, I have seen Tom Brady nail that pass a hundred times. If it is too hard for Manning, I feel bad, because I would expect my guy to get it done.

    Second, they aren't crossed up, it is a pattern. It is designed to keep DBs seperated. Did you ever play football? It is common stuff that QB
    s look at all the time.

    Moreover, it isn't an INT risk if you put the ball where it is supposed to be. Lead the reciever by a few steps and put it down. Sure if you throw it behing the player the Db can step up and try to make a play, but lets be serious that isn't elite coverage by any stretch.

    But like I said, Manning isn't good at squeezing the ball, and a ton of his completions come with huge cushions on comeback routes while safeties and CBs bail to stay on top of the fastest WR duo in the league. It gets a lot harder when you have to stick one in there.

    It was poorly executed by Peyton. He choked up and didn't get the ball out. Like I said, Dungy said the same thing.

    And last little bit, a hot route usually goes behind a free blitzer. You don't run a hot route on the side they aren't blitzing from. The whole point of a hot route is to exploit the hole left in coverge. Even then, he didn't audibilize so I doubt it was a hot route.

    If he picks that out you are talking 15-20 or more if the receiver can make a move on the safety.[/Quote]

    Z -

    TP caught you in his web of deceit which was exactly his plan. In a prior post I outlined where he specifically said manning had a less than 2 touchdown average in all of his playoff games - not just playoff losses. It was an intentional omission.

    Disagree with you on the play. Played DB through High school. The ball could not go to wayne because clark was underneath and the LB was all over him - 5 yard rule. Manning could have put it outside of clark and low, but it would have been a low % pass. By the way, the protection was set up to catch the blitz, it was just missed by the rookie back.

    Just the way I see it.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    More Proof That Peyton Is Overrated

    [Quote]--------------------------------------------------------
    You are a p-ssy of colossal proportions.

    RESPONSE: Like your Hall of Fame QB?

    Tell you what - I'll respond to your questions as I have once you admit that you intentionally lied to try to make manning look worse. Until then, I will be just like you. Respond only to that which I desire.

    RESPONSE: You're trying to get a lot of mileage from my misreading of a stat. But, it doesn't change the facts...which are that Manning has a losing record in the playoffs...and that, in his losses, he managed to put up a feeble 13.6 points per game.
    As for your accusation that I purposely misstated the stat, thats a lie. But, go on and play your linguistic little games if you wish. Playing that up for all its' worth is all you have to offer.

    So, I guess if I said that the pats won their 04 game because they had the refs in their pockets which vaulted the pats to the sb, then we would be even?

    RESPONSE: That too would be a lie. The Pats dominated that game, from start to finish...and won 20-3...not by the skin of their teeth.

    Incidently, the officiating so so bad in the Colts' 2006 "win", that the NFL sent the Patriots a letter of apology for the Hobbs PI call...which handed Indy a TD.


    [/Quote]
     
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