Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    3 83 NWE Brandon Tate WR                                        North Carolina
    3 84 PIT Mike Wallace WR                                         Mississippi

    2009 Draft

    Ooops!!!


     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    Is it me or is Mike Wallace really overrated?  He's been productive for sure, but people act like he is Jerry Rice.

    Tate has what 3 or 4 TDs this year?  Wallace has 5.

    How is this an "ooops"?

    Tate was a fine 3rd rd pick as was Wallace.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    This is Wallace's second year playing, Tate's first essentially.  Wallace is playing in a stable offense, Tate in one that is changing. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    I'm not acting like he's Jerry Rice. I'm "acting" like he's a productive WR.

    KO returners are easy to find. Just ask Ellis Hobbs. You don't go looking specifically for them in the 3rd round.

    That high, you draft a WR to play WR. Tate looks overwhelmed. He can;t get open. Wallace is having a great year and did well last year.

    BB's drafted WRs (not KO Returners) since 2003:
    2003 2 45 Bethel Johnson WR
    2004 5 164 P.K. Sam WR
    2006 2 36 Chad Jackson WR
    2008 5 153 Matt Slater WR
    2009 3 83 Brandon Tate WR
    2009 7 232 Julian Edelman WR
    2010 3 90 Taylor Price WR
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    Dude, Randy Moss was the #1 WR up until 4 weeks ago. NE traded for a veteran in Branch who knows the system pretty well.

    Tate has started what, 2 games?  Maybe 3, in this offense.

    Tate now has an opportunity and if you think he is just a kick returner, then we disagree.

    They run a hybrid West Coast offense here. This isn't Pittsburgh.

    You need to know where to be in this offfense and to run routes. Wallace's production comes from great speed and some size in a completely different offense.

    It appears you are comparing two different players in two different contexts and gauging what fantasy stats might be available for each WR.




     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    Dude, Randy Moss was the #1 WR up until 4 weeks ago. NE traded for a veteran in Branch who knows the system pretty well. Tate has started what, 2 games?  Maybe 3, in this offense. Tate now has an opportunity and if you think he is just a kick returner, then we disagree. They run a hybrid West Coast offense here. This isn't Pittsburgh. You need to know where to be in this offfense and to run routes. Wallace's production comes from great speed and some size in a completely different offense. It appears you are comparing two different players in two different contexts and gauging what fantasy stats might be available for each WR.
    Posted by BBReigns


    Let me get this straight. You're telling me that Wallace is a product of the system? Would Tate thrive in Pittsburgh? Wallace was putting up good numbers with Charlie Batch.

    Wallace looked good from his rookie season. I've yet to see any glimmer of receiving ability in Tate this year, and it's been more than 2 games.

    BB knew that Tate might not be ready to play until 2010. Moreover, on a per seaon basis, Wallace was more productive in the SEC than Tate was in the ACC.

    Based on his WR draft history. BB continues to whiff on WRs. Last night, Wallace was targeted 7 times and 5 catches for 110 yards and a TD.

    Mke Wallace Game Log
    Brandon Tate Game Log

    Give it up, dude.


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    Is it me or is Mike Wallace really overrated?  He's been productive for sure, but people act like he is Jerry Rice. Tate has what 3 or 4 TDs this year?  Wallace has 5. How is this an "ooops"? Tate was a fine 3rd rd pick as was Wallace.
    Posted by BBReigns

    There is that over used over rated word again. Only applies to the other 31 teams in the league. Never heard it referred to any Patsie player. The key is WR not KR. I haven't checked, but I'm willing to bet that Wallace has considerable more receiving yards than Tater head. That's why the oops. And please don't tell me that the Pats are inundated with receivers. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    He's a #1 WR who is getting reps and got reps as a rookie. So, yes, you need to get things straight.   You can't compare two WRs, one who is counted on as #1 WR in a much easier offense to learn. That's just dumb. Wallace wouldn't have gotten as many looks here with Moss and Welker here. I am not taking anything away from him whatsoever, but he's a #1 in Pitt. He's done well, like I said, but he's gotten the reps as a defacto #1. I am saying that one was a starter as a rookie, while one was recovering from leg surgery and then got hurt as a rookie. Now, about 5-6 weeks in, Tate is a flanker option in this offense here. They are not really comparable contexts, other whan where they were drafted. Defensive much? To start the year, this offense was still Moss and Welker, while in Pitt it's Hines Ward and now Wallace, through the air, unless you want to pretend Randle El is a #2, which I don't think you would. Each player has taken advantage of their reps, Wallace being given more looks. Give what up? Learn that winning games in this system is not about stats and never was. This is the same argument would hear for years in Indy and Pitt while NE was winning SBs.  Some fans want to look only at stats, I guess. Put it this way, NE won't be gameplanning around Mike Wallace on Sunday. Also, he had 2 TDs against TB before Roethlisberger returned.  Good, but not as great as you are claiming.  Against TB, that was also his only 100 yard game. So, really, he had one superior game. Again, not trying to disparage his work, but like I said, I keep hearing people say how great this guy is, and he's not as great as the claims (in my opinion). He's definitely one of the better 2009 draft picks at WR, yes. Here's a good overview: http://www.fantasyfootballjournal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=238:2009-rookie-wide-receiver-rankings-post-draft&catid=25:dynasty&Itemid=2
    Posted by BBReigns

    What makes you think that Pitts is a much easier offense. Do you have each teams' playbook? You wouldn't understand them anyway. Tater 16 catches, 250 yards @15.6 YPC. Wallace 22 catches, 497 yards @22.6 YPC. Big disparity if you're drafting each player as a WR.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    This is Tate's rookie year. He has four starts and 251 yards and one TD. If he comes on late and picks up 500 yards and 4-5 TDs over the course of the next 8 games then it will be about on par for what Wallace gave the Steelers his rookie season.

    That is about 60ypg and 1 TD every other game. Doubtful, but possible.

    But you do need to factor in kick returning. I mean (although it was terribly countered) the Browns spent the entire game literally giving NE the ball at the 30-40 with short kicks meant to keep the ball away from Tate. 

    That in and of itself is exceptional.

    KO returners are easy to find. Just ask Ellis Hobbs. You don't go looking specifically for them in the 3rd round.

    Actually, Ellis was drafted in the 3rd round. 84th overall. A huge part of the reason he was drafted was his upside as a KR to go with his potential as a CB. And it is amazing that he has a job despite being an average corner specifically because he is a very good KR. That way your slot corner can also double a roster spot as a impact weapon on special teams. 

    Between the 2nd and the fifth is a great place to take a talent that has rock solid upside as a KR. Dante Hall, Devin Hester, Brian Mitchell, Leon Washington were all taken between the low second and high fifth, and every one of them was taken with a dynamic KR floor in mind. 

    It maximizes your potential to get something in return.

    So instead of bagging on Tate I would only ask you to consider where ... Ramses Barden, Deon Butler, Juaquin Iglesias, Patrick Turner, Brian Robiskie, Mohammed Massaquoi, Brian Hartline, and Mike Thomas are ...

    I guarantee that every one of those teams that took that cast would trade for Tate 1:1 in a heartbeat.

    That said, as a pure WR there is no question that Mike Wallace has looked more polished, has fared better getting off the press, and has most certainly more productive. But he has about equal impact on the game as Tate overall. 

    Between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th there were only 3 WR prospects who have done anything worth mentioning. Collie, Wallace, and Tate. 

    So far Tate has been a good selection as a KR. He adds  a lethal weapon. He would be an amazing selection as a KR/WR if he can develop into something better than what he has been thus far at SE.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    It's a fool's game to compare any draft pick to the single best one of 31 other nearby picks.  Odds should be that 15 of 31 are better than your draft pick.  No one can pick perfectly.  If your pick is in the top two, you drafted well.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SShoreLurker. Show SShoreLurker's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    BBReigns... you better hope the Patriots can cash the check your mouth just wrote.

    Put it this way, NE won't be gameplanning around Mike Wallace on Sunday.

    They better be doing SOMETHING out there against Mr. Wallace.  B/c if you think the Patriots secondary is good enough to shut his side of the field down all day long without game planning, you couldn't be more wrong.  

    FYI Wallace just had 5-110 1TD game Monday.  He is becoming Pittsburgh's stretch man.  You don't need to be a HOFer to create space.  

    And if you want to compare Tate with anyone try Jacoby Ford.

     
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SShoreLurker. Show SShoreLurker's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    BBReigns..  and if you really want to compare players.  Mike Wallace is more like Stanley Morgan in terms of what he does for his team.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Steelcurtain75. Show Steelcurtain75's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    The biggest problem with Mike Wallace is, Roethlisberger doesn't seem to have the arm to throw it far enough. If he was playing with Brady, who I think throws the deep ball as good as anybody in the history of the game, he would have twice as many touchdowns. Also, with injuries to the offensive line, it's going to make it harder & harder for Ben to even have time to throw the ball deep. Not making excuses, because you have to win with the guys you have. And play calling is just as bad here in Pittsburgh. Ben seems to play his best in the hurry-up offense, when he calls the plays. Brady knows the game just as well as Manning, why not let him call more plays. Years ago, many of the QB's called their own plays. Seems like now adays, far too many of these offensive coordinators have become so predictable.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    This is Tate's rookie year. He has four starts and 251 yards and one TD. If he comes on late and picks up 500 yards and 4-5 TDs over the course of the next 8 games then it will be about on par for what Wallace gave the Steelers his rookie season. That is about 60ypg and 1 TD every other game. Doubtful, but possible. But you do need to factor in kick returning. I mean (although it was terribly countered) the Browns spent the entire game literally giving  NE the ball at the 30-40 with short kicks meant to keep the ball away from Tate.  That in and of itself is exceptional. KO returners are easy to find. Just ask Ellis Hobbs. You don't go looking specifically for them in the 3rd round. Actually, Ellis was drafted in the 3rd round. 84th overall. A huge part of the reason he was drafted was his upside as a KR to go with his potential as a CB. And it is amazing that he has a job despite being an average corner specifically because he is a very good KR. That way your slot corner can also double a roster spot as a impact weapon on special teams.  Between the 2nd and the fifth is a great place to take a talent that has rock solid upside as a KR. Dante Hall, Devin Hester, Brian Mitchell, Leon Washington were all taken between the low second and high fifth, and every one of them was taken with a dynamic KR floor in mind.  It maximizes your potential to get something in return. So instead of bagging on Tate  I would only ask you to consider where ... Ramses Barden, Deon Butler, Juaquin Iglesias, Patrick Turner, Brian Robiskie, Mohammed Massaquoi, Brian Hartline, and Mike Thomas are ... I guarantee that every one of those teams that took that cast would trade for Tate 1:1 in a heartbeat. That said, as a pure WR there is no question that Mike Wallace has looked more polished, has fared better getting off the press, and has most certainly more productive. But he has about equal impact on the game as Tate overall.  Between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th there were only 3 WR prospects who have done anything worth mentioning. Collie, Wallace, and Tate.  So far Tate has been a good selection as a KR. He adds  a lethal weapon. He would be an amazing selection as a KR/WR if he can develop into something better than what he has been thus far at SE.
    Posted by zbellino


    Right now Tate is a poor man's Cribbs if not becoming a Cribbs type.  He affects the game with how dangerous he can be on kick offs.

    BB saw major impact with the guy who has had the most production on Special Teams in return yards in NCAA history.

    This Cuban Pete character keeps telling me to "give it up" which I don't get.

    It's an apples and oranges comparison.

    I could see if Tate brought nothing to the table, but that would be completely false.

    Tate just started being worked in here a Y WR in this opposite or maybe even the X, at times.

    Wallace was implemented last year. 

    Agreed. Apples and oranges.


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    The biggest problem with Mike Wallace is, Roethlisberger doesn't seem to have the arm to throw it far enough. If he was playing with Brady, who I think throws the deep ball as good as anybody in the history of the game, he would have twice as many touchdowns. Also, with injuries to the offensive line, it's going to make it harder & harder for Ben to even have time to throw the ball deep. Not making excuses, because you have to win with the guys you have. And play calling is just as bad here in Pittsburgh. Ben seems to play his best in the hurry-up offense, when he calls the plays. Brady knows the game just as well as Manning, why not let him call more plays. Years ago, many of the QB's called their own plays. Seems like now adays, far too many of these offensive coordinators have become so predictable.
    Posted by Steelcurtain75



    Really? You think Brady does. Interesting. I think he has at times, but it really depends on the personnel.

    Patten was good with it for a while, and obviously Moss.  But until Tate or someone else steps forward, the deep routes aren't there.

    Wallace is a nice add for Pitt, no doubt.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    The biggest problem with Mike Wallace is, Roethlisberger doesn't seem to have the arm to throw it far enough. If he was playing with Brady, who I think throws the deep ball as good as anybody in the history of the game, he would have twice as many touchdowns. Also, with injuries to the offensive line, it's going to make it harder & harder for Ben to even have time to throw the ball deep. Not making excuses, because you have to win with the guys you have. And play calling is just as bad here in Pittsburgh. Ben seems to play his best in the hurry-up offense, when he calls the plays. Brady knows the game just as well as Manning, why not let him call more plays. Years ago, many of the QB's called their own plays. Seems like now adays, far too many of these offensive coordinators have become so predictable.
    Posted by Steelcurtain75

    Yeah. Ironically, Wallace was a guy I thought could fill a good role here down the road. He is actually more of a Patriot type WR than what I would consider a Steeler type WR. 

    And yeah, Brady throws the prettiest long ball in the game. Ben's mechanics are a nightmare, but it doesn't matter because he throws on the run better than anyone in football, and is so hard to bring down, that a lack of pocket QB skills can be overlooked easily. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    This BB Reigns character is telling me that comparing one WR with another WR, who was taken with the next pick in the same draft, is comparing apples with oranges.

    To summarize:

    • KO Rets are not hard to find. They can be WRs, DBs, and RBs.
    • KO Rets have significantly less of an impact on a game than a WR.
    • KO Rets can easily be neutalized. When was the last time Tate's return skills were a factor in any single game? Try 10/04/2010. Tate has been invisible on returns in the last 4 games.
    • KO Rets shouldn't be sought for. WRs must.
    • The "Tate's essential rookie year" argment is irrelevant since BB knew that he was injured when he drafted him.
    • Yes, every personnel guy has bad picks, but as I pointed out, BB's draft history with WRs has been beyond awful. Tate over Wallace in '09 and Taylor Price in '10 are the latest draft blunders at the WR position.

    And we wonder why the offense isn't clicking?

    If if makes anyone feel any better, I think the the Pats win big at Pittsburgh. The Steelers have injuries and the Pats have been embarassed last week. Win or lose, this teams problems at WR won't go away this season. Let's hope Branch's hammy heals, because he's playing on one leg right now.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    All Pro KO return players are absolutely hard to find, as are quality punt returners.

    You're either really good at it and dangerous or your not.

    You need to calm down. Not one person here stated Wallace wasn't doing well, but your infatuation with him is a little unhealthy.

    I could pick the first TE chosen after Hernandez in Round 4 and make the same case, but if that TE is backing up Tony Gonzalez, for example, it wouldn't make much sense to compare, would it?

    Please post the amount of snaps each Wallace and Tate have had since 2009.

    Thanks.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    All Pro KO return players are absolutely hard to find, as are quality punt returners. You're either really good at it and dangerous or your not. You need to calm down. Not one person here stated Wallace wasn't doing well, but your infatuation with him is a little unhealthy. I could pick the first TE chosen after Hernandez in Round 4 and make the same case, but if that TE is backing up Tony Gonzalez, for example, it wouldn't make much sense to compare, would it? Please post the amount of snaps each Wallace and Tate have had since 2009. Thanks.
    Posted by BBReigns


    And you tell me to calm down.

    LOL!!!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    What?

    You don't seem to understand many here have explained to you, Wallace and Tate aren't a very accurate comparison by context.

    Wallace will not make the Pro Bowl.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    What? You don't seem to understand many here have explained to you, Wallace and Tate aren't a very accurate comparison by context. Wallace will not make the Pro Bowl.
    Posted by BBReigns


    Oh no. Wallace won't make the PB! I guess I lost the argument!

    You asked for the # of snaps. Well, it's safe to say that since Tate was already injured when BB drafted him it's irrelevant. OTOH, in 2010, the snap count is likely the same. There's a rumor that Tate is the starting WR for the Pats on the left side, but he's been too invisible to notice.

    If you actually looked at the game logs I've posted eariler, you'd know that Tate has been a non-fact on special teams in the last 4 games.

    Wow, are you dense.

    Homers are like neo-cons and liberals: tell them one thing they don't like to hear and they lose it.

    In Bill We Trust, especially when it comes to drafting WRs.
    Carry on, dude.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    Non factor? Didn't we see teams kick the ball out of bounds or to the 30 yard line in fear of kicking to him???

    NE's field position is outstanding thanks to Tate's skills.

    You're irrational.

    Here we see a very good draft pick in the 3rd rd in 2009 because he wasn't going to be able to play, so we now see a rookie, essentially, just now starting in a game for the first time.

    You post game logs and I ask for snaps taken on the field.  Way to try to eliminate an actual legitimate context to compare.

    The latter is another concept you're just tossing out the window in this discussion.

    Gee, I wonder why you did that?

    Some fans have to complain and armchair about the stupidest things.  Gee, draft us all the All Pros in the draft, BB!!  If you don't, your butt will be on the line!   HIlarious.

    Because Mike Wallace has gotten more reps since his healthy rookie year in 2009, your whole claim is here BB blew it by choosing to boost the Special Teams unit and invest in a young WR in a West Coast hybrid offense which is a lot more complex than what Pitt runs.

    NE knew Tate would miss 2009. He actually came back pretty quick and then got hurt again, so this is his first full year.

    He as 1 receiving TD so far and is getting more and more looks every week.  Hes's coming along fine.  His drop last week was bad, yes.

    As you can see, not many Pats fans agree with you here.  We are just starting to see Tate start the last 2-3 weeks, as the "#2" in the this offense opposite Branch.


     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ReddsGhost. Show ReddsGhost's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    So THIS is the MOST UNDERREPORTED story of the WEEK???? Not Gronkowski going to IR? Not the amount of injuries to Pitts? Not Dallas firing their coach? Not the mess known as Minnisota?
    Wow, says something about Cuba's educational system huh? and their people in general.
    Isn't there a name for someone who trolls the boards and posts COMPLETELY STUPID arguements in the hopes of stirring krap up? Just can't think of the name off the top of my head.......
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9

    In Response to Re: Most Under Reported Story of Week #9:
    This BB Reigns character is telling me that comparing one WR with another WR, who was taken with the next pick in the same draft, is comparing apples with oranges. To summarize: KO Rets are not hard to find. They can be WRs, DBs, and RBs. KO Rets have significantly less of an impact on a game than a WR. KO Rets can easily be neutalized. When was the last time Tate's return skills were a factor in any single game? Try 10/04/2010. Tate has been invisible on returns in the last 4 games. KO Rets shouldn't be sought for. WRs must. The "Tate's essential rookie year" argment is irrelevant since BB knew that he was injured when he drafted him. Yes, every personnel guy has bad picks, but as I pointed out, BB's draft history with WRs has been beyond awful. Tate over Wallace in '09 and Taylor Price in '10 are the latest draft blunders at the WR position. And we wonder why the offense isn't clicking? If if makes anyone feel any better, I think the the Pats win big at Pittsburgh. The Steelers have injuries and the Pats have been embarassed last week. Win or lose, this teams problems at WR won't go away this season. Let's hope Branch's hammy heals, because he's playing on one leg right now.
    Posted by CubanPete

    Why are young summarizing your own opinions, especially as if they were fact. 

    KRs that a very good have as much impact on a game as any WR. There are likely two games NE does not win but for Tate on special teams this season, and one other if not for him at WR. I don't think you can say that is less impact than a straight WR. 

    KR are most certainly sought after. Not in the first round, but it is normal practice to take KR/?? prospects beneath that.

    Whether he was drafted injured or not is irrelevant. We are talking about developmental curves. Thus you compare players from the beginning of their active tenure receiving solid playing time. Second, if you recall, Tate was supposed to be ready last season and tweaked the knee on a long pass. BB has little control over that. 

    The moral is, either Tate or Wallace would have been a good choice for different needs at this early stage of their career. If Wallace is on New England, though, I can't think who returns those kicks for TDs who is currently under contract, nor a free agent. Maybe Wallace has a TD or so more for the offense, but it is likely a wash.

    NE has issues at WR, but they are more related to ditching Moss, and Welker getting his knee thrashed. The entire last two drafts were done with the idea of having a healthy Moss under contract.

    NE should get another WR (I have no faith in Price yet, as he is still only a college player to me until he is active) and go after someone who can make a difference.
     
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