Murray vs Vereen

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dmcpatsfan. Show dmcpatsfan's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    This is a stupid thread...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen


    Maybe it then makes sense for us to look at this same question next year at this time and see where both Murray and Vereen are.

    As for now, I know only 1 thing. Murray is contributing heavily to his team and averaging 6.7 yards per carry and Vereen is warming the bench for whatever reason.

    thats the cold, hard facts at this point. Trying to compare them is a very difficult thing to do for many reasons as many here have pointed out...complexity of system, depth chart, injury, etc. So, we can only go off of production relative to draft position, and Murry at this point wins the discussion....
    To be continued..........
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    Frank your post is excellent. It is something i have been wondering about for the last 2 seasons. If the offense is too complicated what could is it. Same thing with the 3/4. If players are to hard to find for the scheme what good is it.
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    Maybe it then makes sense for us to look at this same question next year at this time and see where both Murray and Vereen are. As for now, I know only 1 thing. Murray is contributing heavily to his team and averaging 6.7 yards per carry and Vereen is warming the bench for whatever reason. thats the cold, hard facts at this point. Trying to compare them is a very difficult thing to do for many reasons as many here have pointed out...complexity of system, depth chart, injury, etc. So, we can only go off of production relative to draft position, and Murry at this point wins the discussion.... To be continued..........
    Posted by PatsLifer

    Well, for one ... Dallas has WR's that can stretch the field a bit. It's a sea change compared to NE. 

    When the entire defense isn't crowded in 10-15 yards from the line of scrimmage every play, it gives a runner like Murray some room to grow. 

    I agree, it's definitely not reps... Dallas only runs the ball 3-4 times more than NE per 100 plays ... such a small difference is certainly not enough to account for a huge developmental gap.

    Injury to the starter is, for one. As well as the ability of the offense to create room for their runners by creating vertical space between the defenders and the line of scrimmage.  

    I WOULD say that NE absolutely should have drafted two running backs, at least one.They had one running back under contract, and another who they could have tendered coming in. Woodhead is a good 3rd down back ... but it's not like you can't improve on BJGE. In a short four (or whatever) game stint since Jones went down, and something like 1/5th the career carries, Murray has more 20+ yard runs than BJGE on his career: 7 to 5. But then in half that many carries, 1/10th, Ridley already has 3 20+ runs as well. So it's not like none of the RBs BB took a shot on haven't seen the field or been effective.   

    Maybe in the long run someone will say BB chose the wrong RBs, but it's waay too early to say that. But I certainly wouldn't question the strategy ... I mean what's the alternatve ... going broke on more 34 year old guys who are injured every other week like they have the previous few seasons?
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen : Well, for one ... Dallas has WR's that can stretch the field a bit. It's a sea change compared to NE.  When the entire defense isn't crowded in 10-15 yards from the line of scrimmage every play, it gives a runner like Murray some room to grow.  I agree, it's definitely not reps... Dallas only runs the ball 3-4 times more than NE per 100 plays ... such a small difference is certainly not enough to account for a huge developmental gap. Injury to the starter is, for one. As well as the ability of the offense to create room for their runners by creating vertical space between the defenders and the line of scrimmage.   I WOULD say that NE absolutely should have drafted two running backs, at least one.They had one running back under contract, and another who they could have tendered coming in. Woodhead is a good 3rd down back ... but it's not like you can't improve on BJGE. In a short four (or whatever) game stint since Jones went down, and something like 1/5th the career carries, Murray has more 20+ yard runs than BJGE on his career: 7 to 5. But then in half that many carries, 1/10th, Ridley already has 3 20+ runs as well. So it's not like none of the RBs BB took a shot on haven't seen the field or been effective.    Maybe in the long run someone will say BB chose the wrong RBs, but it's waay too early to say that. But I certainly wouldn't question the strategy ... I mean what's the alternatve ... going broke on more 34 year old guys who are injured every other week like they have the previous few seasons?
    Posted by zbellino


    I get why Murray is more productive in the Dallas system because of their vertical threats, opening stuff up, etc.
    I guess what I was trying to sum up is..."we just don't know". However, at the same time, you can only look at performance to date as the near term indicator. And, Murray's is far and away better than Vereen's because he has seen the field and got his chances, while Vereen has not. No fault of Vereen's maybe, but it is what it is. If you want to do a simplilfication of the results to date, you just have to look at production. In this case, it's production vs. non-production, and frankly I don't care what the reasons are because they simply don't matter.

    I don't have a problem with us drafting 2 backs, In fact, we needed it. My problem is if you do it, and you take them high as we did, why not play them? It just seems like a 2nd round waste of a pick at the moment. It hasn't yielded us any return so far. That was my other point.
    IF BB knew Faulk, Woody, BJGE would be back, how much room do you have on the roster? How much playing time do you expect each to have? If it was semi-crowded to begin with, maybe you grab 1 back, and use that 2nd on anothere position of need...say like WR...and we know Torrey Smith was there for the taking along with 25+ other players who are CONTRIBUTING THIS YEAR!

    In the end, I just see it as flawed draft strategy. We would have been better off using the pick, or trading it into next year. At least trading it into next year, we wouldn't have lost anything since Vereen isn't contributing this year, and we might have yielded a higher pick that we could have traded into 2013, in which we would have traded into 2014, so on and so forth.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen : I get why Murray is more productive in the Dallas system because of their vertical threats, opening stuff up, etc. I guess what I was trying to sum up is..."we just don't know". However, at the same time, you can only look at performance to date as the near term indicator. And, Murray's is far and away better than Vereen's because he has seen the field and got his chances, while Vereen has not. No fault of Vereen's maybe, but it is what it is. If you want to do a simplilfication of the results to date, you just have to look at production. In this case, it's production vs. non-production, and frankly I don't care what the reasons are because they simply don't matter. I don't have a problem with us drafting 2 backs, In fact, we needed it. My problem is if you do it, and you take them high as we did, why not play them? It just seems like a 2nd round waste of a pick at the moment. It hasn't yielded us any return so far. That was my other point. IF BB knew Faulk, Woody, BJGE would be back, how much room do you have on the roster? How much playing time do you expect each to have? If it was semi-crowded to begin with, maybe you grab 1 back, and use that 2nd on anothere position of need...say like WR...and we know Torrey Smith was there for the taking along with 25+ other players who are CONTRIBUTING THIS YEAR! In the end, I just see it as flawed draft strategy. We would have been better off using the pick, or trading it into next year. At least trading it into next year, we wouldn't have lost anything since Vereen isn't contributing this year, and we might have yielded a higher pick that we could have traded into 2013, in which we would have traded into 2014, so on and so forth.
    Posted by PatsLifer

    Dude. I wanted Torrey Smith so bad. NE worked him out, I was really hoping for it .... I even had him in my mock. Arr. But I won't whine about it ad nauseum like the Clay Matthews crowd, lol. At any rate. LOL. Water over a burned bridge, or somesuch. I hate second guessing drafts that way ... rate the players you have not the ones you could have had. But back to that in a bit.

    Sometimes I read through threads quickly, half paying attention to who said what, and end up responding to the one post that catches my eye. I think the drafting thing was meant because someone was criticzing drafting TWO RBs up top. It wasn't meant for you, just a response to the thread in general. 

    At any rate ... trading assumes you have a.) a deal in place, and b.) that the deal is good enough to take. NE took Vereen, they placed a pretty high value on the kid ... second rounders don't grow on trees. Perhaps he is just behind the curve, who knows? The thing is, you take the guy you want when he is there ... ... you develop him until you are comfortable that he is worth playing or not, if Vereen were on the field right now having 91 yard runs (haha! when was the last time NE had a back who could do that? Curtis Martin?) people wouldn't be upset. If he is on the field, highly productive, and doing good things as a runner and reciever (my hopes) NEXT SEASON, will you still doubt the pick?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen : Dude. I wanted Torrey Smith so bad. NE worked him out, I was really hoping for it .... I even had him in my mock. Arr. But I won't whine about it ad nauseum like the Clay Matthews crowd, lol. At any rate. LOL. Water over a burned bridge, or somesuch. I hate second guessing drafts that way ... rate the players you have not the ones you could have had. But back to that in a bit. Sometimes I read through threads quickly, half paying attention to who said what, and end up responding to the one post that catches my eye. I think the drafting thing was meant because someone was criticzing drafting TWO RBs up top. It wasn't meant for you, just a response to the thread in general.  At any rate ... trading assumes you have a.) a deal in place, and b.) that the deal is good enough to take. NE took Vereen, they placed a pretty high value on the kid ... second rounders don't grow on trees. Perhaps he is just behind the curve, who knows? The thing is, you take the guy you want when he is there ... ... you develop him until you are comfortable that he is worth playing or not, if Vereen were on the field right now having 91 yard runs (haha! when was the last time NE had a back who could do that? Curtis Martin?) people wouldn't be upset. If he is on the field, highly productive, and doing good things as a runner and reciever (my hopes) NEXT SEASON, will you still doubt the pick?
    Posted by zbellino


    Z,
    I always respect your opinion. I know you weren't calling me out per se on the 2 RB drafting decision. I wanted 2 taken, but I also wanted 2 to be utilized. My poinnt was simple though..IF we knew we wouldn't use 2 because of who we already had, why draft 2? For next year? I don't like that strategy. BB has done this on many occasion. Invest a high draft pick in a position and hold that pick back 1-3 years. That doens't do the team any good in the short term, and my feeling is the longer that kid sits, the worse potentially things get for him that is. I haven't seen any good come as a result of this strategy. I can't think of a player that was intentially kept back, only to shine in 2 years from when they were drafted.
    If you look at the roster, the kids that are making impacts are the ones seeing the field quickly after being drafted...Solder, Gronk, McCourty, Spikes, etc.

    Regarding the draft...maybe we should pick up another thread on that one. I hate to look backwards as well, and typically don't, but the last 6 drafts have caused me to take notice ONLY because of the sheer number of failures we have seen in rounds 1-3. AND, kids who were drafted at the same position within 10-15 picks of our bust, who succeed.
    This frustrates me because this is seemingly a weak part of our overall organization.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    I like your posts too Lifer.

    I don't think it is a bad decision to take a player a year ahead of time. That is essentially what I am saying. 

    While I firmly believe that NE drafts to need (the evidence is there) drafting to need the year you need it is a bad strategy.

    In one more year .... Faulk could be gone and BJGE could be gone. Both are on one year contracts (am I right?). When you draft you usually are aware of who the next draft has as well... so the choice of Vereen could also be over a number of backs that haven't even left college yet as well.

    Come next season, we'll know more.

    Also, he could start seeing playing time too. This season. There are still seven games remaining, which is more than enough time to get a look.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen


    I'm with you on drafting slightly ahead of need. I guess this is a fine line. What further complicates matters is drafting ahead of need, and then, that draft pick not sticking. So, you spend a high pick 1-2 years before the need, bench them or play them sparingly, and when you finally have the need, that player turns bust. Not to be all doom and gloom, but I've seen this play out quite often over the past 6 years.
    If we could somehow tighten up how we scout and draft, I think we get better real fast with the bounty of picks that BB has added to the war chest.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen


    Okay Russ, you win by attrition!

    Yes, we need to use the run more, in the right places and with the right personnel.

    I would settle for 1 superior back vs. 4 so-so ones. I'm starting to question RB by committee if it really is the most effective use of resources to accomplish establishment of a superior run game, while masking what we do.

    You make a poinnt every now and then about who we sub in as RBs. Meaning, when we bring in BJGE, teams know what we will do, vs. Ridley or somethign like that. I cna't articulate like you did, but I understand what you were saying.

    IF we had one homerun threat, a kid that could run and catch the ball out of the backfield and was a threat to take it to the house every time he touched it, we woudl rarely have to sub other than for rest, and it adds a dynamic which we haven't had probably since Dillon.

    I don't know if BB is gun shy because of Maroney, or simply doesn't want to invest money in that position, but it would seem to me we would be a heck of al lot more effective across the board if we had an Adrian Peterson type vs. the 4 that we do have.

    This whole argument that RB's are a dime a dozen is BS i think. It only holds water if you don't put much stock in the run game, and you see the RB as just anotehr position. Teams that have invested in it and use it correctly are few. However, if you took a serious threat like that and coupled it with our passing offense?....imagine...
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    you mean like Arian Foster?  Championship!   lol
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    Okay Russ, you win by attrition! Yes, we need to use the run more, in the right places and with the right personnel. I would settle for 1 superior back vs. 4 so-so ones. I'm starting to question RB by committee if it really is the most effective use of resources to accomplish establishment of a superior run game, while masking what we do. You make a poinnt every now and then about who we sub in as RBs. Meaning, when we bring in BJGE, teams know what we will do, vs. Ridley or somethign like that. I cna't articulate like you did, but I understand what you were saying. IF we had one homerun threat, a kid that could run and catch the ball out of the backfield and was a threat to take it to the house every time he touched it, we woudl rarely have to sub other than for rest, and it adds a dynamic which we haven't had probably since Dillon. I don't know if BB is gun shy because of Maroney, or simply doesn't want to invest money in that position, but it would seem to me we would be a heck of al lot more effective across the board if we had an Adrian Peterson type vs. the 4 that we do have. This whole argument that RB's are a dime a dozen is BS i think. It only holds water if you don't put much stock in the run game, and you see the RB as just anotehr position. Teams that have invested in it and use it correctly are few. However, if you took a serious threat like that and coupled it with our passing offense?....imagine...
    Posted by PatsLifer


    re:F we had one homerun threat, a kid that could run and catch the ball out of the backfield and was a threat to take it to the house every time he touched it, we woudl rarely have to sub other than for rest, and it adds a dynamic which we haven't had probably since Dillon. 

    hey lifer, been sayign the samer thing for a yr. sinc ewe havce ridley we should have played him all year to see what he is.

    thoghts on lamichael james?

    if we had that threat back wed be a lock for the sb likely.
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen : I agree with the studly, all round RB, but those are hard to find and I don't get why Ridley can't be a version of something like that. We just don't know. Dallas plants in Murrauy and he looks good. We don't know that here, because they just won't let Ridley go. Look, if BJGE's toe has been the issue, then so be it.  I'd rather they get that thing rested up, etc, because when they used him as a lead back last year, less shotgun, etc, our offense was as lethal a 2007's, but actually in a more efficient way. It doesn;t explain not letting Ridley run with it, though, other than rookie fears. Whatever. You drafted the kid, give him the keys. The thing about subbing is there is so much film now on our shotgun base spread, the subbing tips off the play. We aren't putting enough pressure on the other team's D to guess if it's a pass or run. A lead back does this.  Designed checkdowns to BJGE does this. Screens do this. If you sub, teams know we aren't going to ground and pound with Woodhead, but we can do all 3 things (pass, run or use RB to block/protect) with one RB on a drive. Not saying every drive use BJGE or Ridley in a lead role, but for most of the drives. Teams are out of gas by the end of the 3rd qtr, the game is controlled in a sense we don't turn it over, we win field position and it's just a matter of putting a 5+ minute TD drive together in that 4th qtr. The 4th qtr is also shortened when we run the ball (clock keeps running n 3rd downs before punts, obviously v.s it stopping on a 3rd down incoomplete pass) and have a lead, which forces teams into stupid decisions. Just think how Weis would use our backs in that offense. I actually think BJGE is an ideal back because he sort of captures what they wanted from Maroney, but also captures what Dillon did as well. He's not that level of talent with Dillon, but you know what I mean. He's Antowain Smith on steroids and what Maroney was supposed to be at once.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    I was eating a cracker, ironing and a bit bored so I thought I'd respond.

    I like Benny in some sort of roll, perhaps limited/back up. The problem with Benny and really with most of our backs is that they give away what we are trying to do based off their skill set. Why? Because they are all limited in some sort of way. You bring Benny in and you know that we'd like to have him run up the middle because the speed isn't there to stretch it outside. So what happens? A good team will crowd the middle - forcing him outside - not good. 

    Comparing Benny as a bulked up or juiced Antoine Smith is in my opinion a stretch. Smith was actually bigger and faster than Benny. When he came out of Houston he was running an absurd 40. There was a reason he was drafted in the first...he was big, tall and fast and he played that way for two years for us. Dillon obviously shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

    Now you can say, well Antoine didn't put up great numbers for us, certainly no better than Benny, but Antoine ran with more power and speed in my opinion. We also had a young Faulk that could do some things to keep teams guessing.  

    I think our running hopes lay on Ridley and that worries me, simply because he's young and hasn't played enough. Truthfully Vareen needs (or needed) to play. This would give us two guys with game changing legs that could help this team. It's probably too late at this point, I doubt their going to experiment with two young guys when a playoff bye is at stake. Or risk one of these guys missing a key block that ends our season.

    This Vareen thing is puzzling to me, why take him in the second and not use him? This guy would take a screen pass 75 yards first catch...guaranteed. From what I saw in pre season, he'll also go down on first contact, but why not use him a tad?

    So I guess I disagree that Benny is the answer at lead back. I think he's just too limited to provide you with enough to run it more. I think he's too slow to be very effective on screens as well. I also don't consider him a very effective power back. I like him as a safe option that will get you a third and one, and as a guy that will give you 60 to 70 yards a game if used on a regular basis. Not bad, just not enough.
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Murray vs Vereen:
    Some of us on this board really wanted the Pats to Draft Demarco Murray. Instead at #56 2nd round we took Vereen who has yet to take the field. At #71 3rd round Murray has taken his opportunity and shined for Dallas. This is way too early to tell, but right now Demarco looks better than Vereen and Ridley put together. He looks like the Cowboys long term solution.
    Posted by patriots44


         The Pats could have also drafted WRs Torrie Smith or Randall Cobb. Both, especially Smith, could have served as the deep threat that Tom Brady so desperately needs.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen


    Yes, please dont' remind me.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    In Response to Murray vs Vereen :      The Pats could have also drafted WRs Torrie Smith or Randall Cobb. Both, especially Smith, could have served as the deep threat that Tom Brady so desperately needs.
    Posted by TexasPat3



    totally! if we couold see i tpredraft what are they smoking in the draft room?
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen : I was eating a cracker, ironing and a bit bored so I thought I'd respond. I like Benny in some sort of roll, perhaps limited/back up. The problem with Benny and really with most of our backs is that they give away what we are trying to do based off their skill set. Why? Because they are all limited in some sort of way. You bring Benny in and you know that we'd like to have him run up the middle because the speed isn't there to stretch it outside. So what happens? A good team will crowd the middle - forcing him outside - not good.  Comparing Benny as a bulked up or juiced Antoine Smith is in my opinion a stretch. Smith was actually bigger and faster than Benny. When he came out of Houston he was running an absurd 40. There was a reason he was drafted in the first...he was big, tall and fast and he played that way for two years for us. Dillon obviously shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. Now you can say, well Antoine didn't put up great numbers for us, certainly no better than Benny, but Antoine ran with more power and speed in my opinion. We also had a young Faulk that could do some things to keep teams guessing.   I think our running hopes lay on Ridley and that worries me, simply because he's young and hasn't played enough. Truthfully Vareen needs (or needed) to play. This would give us two guys with game changing legs that could help this team. It's probably too late at this point, I doubt their going to experiment with two young guys when a playoff bye is at stake. Or risk one of these guys missing a key block that ends our season. This Vareen thing is puzzling to me, why take him in the second and not use him? This guy would take a screen pass 75 yards first catch...guaranteed. From what I saw in pre season, he'll also go down on first contact, but why not use him a tad? So I guess I disagree that Benny is the answer at lead back. I think he's just too limited to provide you with enough to run it more. I think he's too slow to be very effective on screens as well. I also don't consider him a very effective power back. I like him as a safe option that will get you a third and one, and as a guy that will give you 60 to 70 yards a game if used on a regular basis. Not bad, just not enough.
    Posted by mthurl



    totally agree adn have posted the same on bdc
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    This shouldent even be a discussion vereen was a bb getting into his im smarter than everyone mode and does dumb things like pick him over torrey smith
     
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    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen:
    In Response to Re: Murray vs Vereen : Disagree.  I say Smith on steroids because our offense is run worse than it was back in the Weis era and the idea that BJGE is a better pass receiver than the slow footed Smith.  Smith also failed conditioning tests here, so I used to chuckle why he looked so serviceable on gamedays.  But, if I had to rank NE's lead backs the last 10 years, I would put the talent of BJGE above Smith.  Dilllon would obviously be first. Literally every single game BJGE has been used as a lead back he basically hits 100 yards, 1 TD and has some catches on checkdowns to move the sticks. Since we clearly struggle to move the chains beyond Gronk/Welker, IMO, the lone reason why BJGE hasn't been used much lately is due to the turf toe. But, when I see BJGE used as the lead back as part of the gameplan (into the 2nd qtr of games and beyond), I have a very good feeling we win the game. I can't give the guy more of a compliment than that. He gets it. He knows how to run. He just does. Those 3 yard gains off of what should have been nothing at the line all add up. If he's not healthy enough to be a lead back right now, let Ridley do it and start filtering in Woodhead/Vereen more as the scatbacks.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing

    I agree Smith did have slow feet and his laziness basically wasted a career (although he had a couple of good years here, but should of had more). I just thought his size and stength were better and if he got free he could take it further. 

    This is what I think Benny gives...decent strength and size (nowhere near spectacular), very very good pad level runner, outstanding ball security, good vision, decent feet, smart runner and he get's what is there. 

    He's missing a couple of things that in my opinion keep him from being dynamic...speed, outstanding tackle breaking ability, unusual change of direction/make you miss ability, superb quickness and rare athleticism and hands that he can use in the passing game.

    I do think Benny has some skills, I just don't see enough of them. In my opinion if he was a guy that came off the bench and gave you ten touches or had to fill in for a few games he'd be perfect.

    This team had some serious defensive needs. I find it very telling that Belichick chose to select not one, but two running backs when he had two young ones as starters (Woodhead, Benny). It tells me he was looking for more out of that position. Why he hasn't used either one enough is beyond me.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsRfineIn09. Show PatsRfineIn09's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    Vereen looked good tonight!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bspikes55. Show Bspikes55's posts

    Re: Murray vs Vereen

    damn il admit im eating crow on this one still just a small sample of the main corse
     
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