My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    Stats say a lot... during a players era of play but does it tell the whole story of best ever?  I don't think so.  However, you need to have won a SB ring to be considered the very best and that is all Randy Moss is lacking right now.


    Would Jerry Rice have been as great as he was during his era as he would have during all era's including today?  NO WAY!  Imagine how Moss would have been back in Rice's day, his stats would have buried Rice's stats.  Moss would have been great in any era, including today.

    Now Would Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Stauback been as great as they were during their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    Would Emmit Smith, Barry Saunders, Jim Brown, Walter Peyton, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, OJ simpson been as great as they were in their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    Would John Macey, Shannon Sharpe, Dave Casper, Ozzie Newsome, Mike Ditka, Kellen Winslow, Mark Bravaro been as great as they were in their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    These all hold true with the exception of Jerry Rice.  Is he the greatest WR of his era and all era's before him?  Yes, but of all time... No! 

    With a SB ring Sunday, Randy Moss should be considered the greatest WR ever!!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjoseph. Show nyjoseph's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    Stats say a lot... during a players era of play but does it tell the whole story of best ever?  I don't think so.  However, you need to have won a SB ring to be considered the very best and that is all Randy Moss is lacking right now.


    Would Jerry Rice have been as great as he was during his era as he would have during all era's including today?  NO WAY!  Imagine how Moss would have been back in Rice's day, his stats would have buried Rice's stats.  Moss would have been great in any era, including today.

    Now Would Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Stauback been as great as they were during their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    Would Emmit Smith, Barry Saunders, Jim Brown, Walter Peyton, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, OJ simpson been as great as they were in their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    Would John Macey, Shannon Sharpe, Dave Casper, Ozzie Newsome, Mike Ditka, Kellen Winslow, Mark Bravaro been as great as they were in their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    These all hold true with the exception of Jerry Rice.  Is he the greatest WR of his era and all era's before him?  Yes, but of all time... No! 

    With a SB ring Sunday, Randy Moss should be considered the greatest WR ever!!




    Immense talent, but he took too many plays and games off to be considered better than Rice.

    And if he wins the SB at this stage/age it's kinda like Robert Parish at the end of his career with the Bulls winning a championship ... not a key contributor.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    Who cares about superbowl wins?  Determining greatness by it is a fallacious argument unless it can truly demonstrated that said individual was a primary reason for that superbowl victory. 

    Maybe Moss will be that, but he really wasn't a huge factor this season for the 49ers on the field.  Now Harbaugh has said he's been invaluable, but its not like he's commanding double teams in the games, etc. 

    None of this takes away from my belief that Moss is truly one of the greatest ever, but one game isn't going to change his position one way or another.  This isn't baseball where a pitcher can dominate a game or basketball where only 5 people are on the court, etc. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    Has Moss had a role in the 49'ers season?  Probably not as far as production but has he been on the field, yes.  Has he started games, yes.  Has he scored points to help win, yes!  If he wins a SB on Sunday can you say Randy Moss was great but did he ever win a SB?  Nope!  And surely people aren't going to say well Randy Moss would have been the greatest ever but he didn't really help them win the SB.  Imagine if he does have an impact in the SB victory, then will you say he didn't help them this year?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to UD6's comment:

    Who cares about superbowl wins?  Determining greatness by it is a fallacious argument unless it can truly demonstrated that said individual was a primary reason for that superbowl victory. 



    Dan Marino!  Marino, considered by many to be the best ever... had he only won a SB.  What if Marino got hurt and only played a few games during his last season with the Dolphins but their backup led them to the SB and won.  Would Dan Marino be regarded higher with a SB ring even under those circumstances then he is now?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    TFB you the greatest photoshoper I know... Proof is in my avatar. 

     

    I always wondered how Rice would play in todays NFL... I always thought he'd be a similar player to Andre Johnson.... IMO

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to Getzo's comment:

    TFB you the greatest photoshoper I know... Proof is in my avatar. 

     

    I always wondered how Rice would play in todays NFL... I always thought he'd be a similar player to Andre Johnson.... IMO




    Thanks, Getzo.



     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    Who did Moss have for QB and who did Rice have? Because of that, IMO, throw out the stats.

    That said, Rice had the better work ethic on the field. Attitude is what makes Rice better.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    If you put together your greatest ever football team to play today in their prime are you taking Moss or Rice?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from sporter81. Show sporter81's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    rice was pretty upset when moss broke the single season td record, he said something about putting an asterix next to it. moss seems to be a thorn in rice's side. 

    whos better? imo rice worked much harder than moss did, he trained hard and never took plays off llike moss does. moss has much more talent than rice and if he had the same work ethic of rice he would have had records that would never be broken. another thing is what would it have been like for moss to play on the 49ers in the 80's? scary, with several rings.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to sporter81's comment:

    whos better? imo rice worked much harder than moss did, he trained hard and never took plays off llike moss does. moss has much more talent than rice and if he had the same work ethic of rice he would have had records that would never be broken. another thing is what would it have been like for moss to play on the 49ers in the 80's? scary, with several rings.

     



    I agree.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to UD6's comment:

    Who cares about superbowl wins?  Determining greatness by it is a fallacious argument unless it can truly demonstrated that said individual was a primary reason for that superbowl victory. 

     



    Big shock a troll with an agenda like you would say this. All that really counts are MVPs, right troll?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to Getzo's comment:

    TFB you the greatest photoshoper I know... Proof is in my avatar. 

     

    I always wondered how Rice would play in todays NFL... I always thought he'd be a similar player to Andre Johnson.... IMO



    Rice played during an era when DB were allowed to be more physical downfield. If Rice were playing today and played for an offense similar to the ones he did with Niners. With say Brady or Manning as his QB his numbers would still dwarf those of Moss. The chief reason that lost on many, because it can't be measured with statistics is the drive and determination of Rice to be the best. Moss is and was notorious for taking off plays and at times entire games. In Oakland some would argue he took off an entire season. What separates the two of them is when you drill down and compare their productivity over the length of their careers. Rice year and and year out consistently topped 100 catches and 1000 yards...In fact his last season in the NFL with the Seahawks he caught 90 balls. 

    No one would dispute that Moss was the better pure athlete, both of them possessed very high  football IQ's and were great teammates. In the end what separated them was that Rice made the most of his god given ability and Moss chose to for his own selfish reasons (usually contract related), spend to much time posturing for new contracts then applying himself on the field. 

    In the end, Moss certainly has the right to stake his claim to being the best. However the fact of of the matter is that his current ranking among the Alltime greats at reciever places him a distant 2nd behind arguably the best football player of all time. the one and only Jerry Rice...

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    "Who cares about superbowl wins?  Determining greatness by it is a fallacious argument unless it can truly demonstrated that said individual was a primary reason for that superbowl victory. "

    Superbowl wins matter a great deal, especially for quarterbacks. Greatness in sports is largley about how you perform in the clutch, thus Montant > Brady > Manning. 

    I know you wish greatness were determined by racking up regular season stats and accolades but that is not the case. 

    In the case of wide receivers, Super Bowl rings are not that important, however, Rice had some huge postseason playoff games, quite a few more than Moss, and since you're trying to determined who was better this does matter. 

    To get back to TB's post, if Moss gets a ring but only catches a couple of passes it likely won't change his legacy one bit. However if he comes up with a few huge grabs and has an impact on a victory, then yes, it helps his legacy. But it doesn't get him over the hump to compare with Rice. 

    Moss wrecked/blew off too many gams and just hasn't been a great teammate in a lot of situations. His comments this week expressing dissatisfaction with playing time are just one more reason why he's got liabilities. 

    Yes if Moss had Rice's mental makeup and work ethic he would be the best of all time and it wouldn't even be close. But he doesn't. 

    Moss is already top five receiver of all time and you can discuss him anywhere from 2-5 but he's not number one and nothing he does on Sunday can change that. But, a stellar performance in a win (or maybe even in a loss) would certainly help his debate in the top 2-5...

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    Rice did more with less talent in an era when DB's could almost tackle you down the field. Beantowne is right, Moss had the easier era to be a WR then Rice did. Even taking out the QB's what Rice did after catching the ball has nothing to do the QB. Rice was one of those rare talents after the catch that just made plays happen. Rice had something Moss never did, work ethic and drive.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    Who cares about superbowl wins?  Determining greatness by it is a fallacious argument unless it can truly demonstrated that said individual was a primary reason for that superbowl victory. 

     



    Dan Marino!  Marino, considered by many to be the best ever... had he only won a SB.  What if Marino got hurt and only played a few games during his last season with the Dolphins but their backup led them to the SB and won.  Would Dan Marino be regarded higher with a SB ring even under those circumstances then he is now?

     



    I get it.  I just think its flawed.  No single player makes it to the SB by themselves.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    Who cares about superbowl wins?  Determining greatness by it is a fallacious argument unless it can truly demonstrated that said individual was a primary reason for that superbowl victory. 

     

     

     



    Big shock a troll with an agenda like you would say this. All that really counts are MVPs, right troll?

     



    Not really.  Brady is significantly better now than he was when he won yet he's won nothing since he's been better.  The logical argument should produce a different result.  

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from brady-is-clutch. Show brady-is-clutch's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    sorry but moss couldnt carry jerrys jockstrap!!  Imagine if rice could play in todays game where you cant even breathe on a WR, back in his day, the DB's could do anything they wanted, bump and run 30 yds down field, cant do that today without the yellow flag, randy is LAZY, and its been proven (see the plays he takes off, as randy says "he plays when he wants to" sure he caught 23 td's in a 16 game season, jerry caught 22 td's in a strike shorten season so 22 td's in 12 games, sorry randy you are know jerry rice, and its not even close, jerry would get double coverage like moss, but jerry knew how to get open and he wasnt afraid to go across the middle!! 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    I read a report that stated that Moss would have to play until 2020 to even match Rice's numbers. Let's try to be objective here. Just because Moss played for the Pats doesn't make him a greater receiver than Jerry. That's 8 more years in the league. His 4.3 speed doesn't exist anymore and DBs cover his more erratic routes than Rice's precise route running and his more clutch than Moss will ever be. To top it off, Rice was still very competitive while at Oakland while we saw a sulking Randy wanting to be traded. He's still complaining about his role right before the SB. He is the main reason I like the Ravens. Pollard should be able to fold him like an accordian. Stretcher please. My 2 sense.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    He had maybe 43 catches this year and 3 TD's, one coming against the lowly Pats secondary. Crabtree, Davis and the new kid on the block are much greater threats than Moss. You only need single coverage on him now. Hope he has a good game because a great game is what I want to see, but putting him ahead of Rice is propesterous. Rice, the humble man that he is, even shook his head on that one.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    Marino is my all time favorite, but that would not put him in the top ten. Sorry.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    Rice had a few obvious advantages over Moss.  He had a better QB throwing to him for most of his career.  He also played on better teams and at least the early parts of his career no one knew how to properly defend the WCO.  That being said while I think Moss is the easily the most talented receiver of all time (his combination of size, speed and hands is unparalleled) the nod still has to go to Rice.

    I said in an earlier thread that I would take a healthy/motivated Moss over Rice if I was building a team, but that doesn't change the fact that Rice's numbers, consistent production and work ethic speak for themselves.  Moss should have been the greatest of all time because of his raw physical abilities, but he isn't precisely because he never had the consistent work ethic that Rice had.  He showed it at times over the course of his career, but he wasted too many seasons and plays to be considered the best ever.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to UD6's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    Who cares about superbowl wins?  Determining greatness by it is a fallacious argument unless it can truly demonstrated that said individual was a primary reason for that superbowl victory. 

     



    Dan Marino!  Marino, considered by many to be the best ever... had he only won a SB.  What if Marino got hurt and only played a few games during his last season with the Dolphins but their backup led them to the SB and won.  Would Dan Marino be regarded higher with a SB ring even under those circumstances then he is now?

     

     



    I get it.  I just think its flawed.  No single player makes it to the SB by themselves.

     



    See, greatest should not be in the context of who has the most talent. The main criteria should be achievement. On my book SB and PO wins are more important achievements than reg season MVPs.

    I would argue that a talented QB could rack up stats at the detriment of the team's success. I am not saying your idol did that. I am just saying that one could inflate stats.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jam757. Show jam757's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to brady-is-clutch's comment:

    sorry but moss couldnt carry jerrys jockstrap!!  Imagine if rice could play in todays game where you cant even breathe on a WR, back in his day, the DB's could do anything they wanted, bump and run 30 yds down field, cant do that today without the yellow flag, randy is LAZY, and its been proven (see the plays he takes off, as randy says "he plays when he wants to" sure he caught 23 td's in a 16 game season, jerry caught 22 td's in a strike shorten season so 22 td's in 12 games, sorry randy you are know jerry rice, and its not even close, jerry would get double coverage like moss, but jerry knew how to get open and he wasnt afraid to go across the middle!! 




    My thoughts exactly. This is really a rediculous discussion and I woud say less than 10% of fans would say Randy is the "best ever". Jerry Rice was BY FAR the greatest and it isn't even close. Megatron may have a chance if he can stay healthy but it is doubtful he will ever see any rings. I loved Randy when he was here (except during the end) and he is an all time great in the top 10 but you can't take plays or games off and still be considered the best.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: My argument for Moss being best WR of all time with SB win!

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    Stats say a lot... during a players era of play but does it tell the whole story of best ever?  I don't think so.  However, you need to have won a SB ring to be considered the very best and that is all Randy Moss is lacking right now.


    Would Jerry Rice have been as great as he was during his era as he would have during all era's including today?  NO WAY!  Imagine how Moss would have been back in Rice's day, his stats would have buried Rice's stats.  Moss would have been great in any era, including today.

    Now Would Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Stauback been as great as they were during their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    Would Emmit Smith, Barry Saunders, Jim Brown, Walter Peyton, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, OJ simpson been as great as they were in their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    Would John Macey, Shannon Sharpe, Dave Casper, Ozzie Newsome, Mike Ditka, Kellen Winslow, Mark Bravaro been as great as they were in their era as they would during all era's including today?  Yes, no doubt about it.

    These all hold true with the exception of Jerry Rice.  Is he the greatest WR of his era and all era's before him?  Yes, but of all time... No! 

    With a SB ring Sunday, Randy Moss should be considered the greatest WR ever!!



    Nuts

     

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