New and improved BB the GM poll.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    Lol this poll.

    Okay 3 people listed him as Below average.
    That means there are 3 people who think there are at least 16 teams with better Gm's.

    Please man up, if you voted below average list the 16 Gm's better then BB

    3 people listed him as average, same situation list even 10 gm's better then BB.

    Great and good are both way ahead, with above average tailing by a half dozen votes.

    Personally id put him in the top 3, with 5 being on his worst year. Id list that as great
    1-3: great
    4-7: good
    8-12: above average
    13-18: average
    Everything else below average.

    If you can HONESTLY say you think there are between 6 and 18 teams doing a better job then BB is doing i have to question your mental health state.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]Lol this poll. Okay 3 people listed him as Below average. That means there are 3 people who think there are at least 16 teams with better Gm's. Please man up, if you voted below average list the 16 Gm's better then BB 3 people listed him as average, same situation list even 10 gm's better then BB. Great and good are both way ahead, with above average tailing by a half dozen votes. Personally id put him in the top 3, with 5 being on his worst year. Id list that as great 1-3: great 4-7: good 8-12: above average 13-18: average Everything else below average. If you can HONESTLY say you think there are between 6 and 18 teams doing a better job then BB is doing i have to question your mental health state.
    Posted by ChasaB[/QUOTE]

    Or you could say fully 1/3 don't even consider him as a good much less a great  GM.

    And nearly 3/4 don't consider him as a great GM.

    I wouldn't say the numbers are sparkling considering the home crowd electorate. If this was done 5 years ago the numbers I expect would be considerably better for him.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrcahill. Show jrcahill's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    If we are looking at this as a bell curve, then we need to compare BB to the other GMs of the salary cap era.  A bell curve is developed based on peer performance and that is what we should use.

    Based on the above, I rate him as a great GM.  He absolutely has missed a lot, but he has also drafted many fantasitic players and has signed and traded for many great FAs and players respectively.  Babe, I have just about given up on getiing you to provide a name, but if you are saying there is a bell curve then there HAS to be at least 1 great GM you can name; otherwise no bell curve exists. I assume you would say Jerry Reese and since you seem to be very critical of BB, I compared BB and JR's drafts.  I am not really sure how to determine the overall success of one or the other and I am not necessarily well versed on all of the Giants roster, but since 2007 JR has drafted 4 or 5 pro bowl players and BB has drafted 4 or 5 pro bowl players.  Each has numerous players still on the roster who make some contribution to the team.  While BB has made bad choice "The Great" Jerry Reese hasn't exactly blown the doors off the draft with the exception of his '07 draft class. Again, feel free to clarify this for me but I am still really struggling to understand what makes a great GM in your mind. How much draft success does one need to have?  Keep in mind, JR has not had to worry about drafting the QB position either during his tenure.

    I read an article recently talking about how the Patriots could easily be 0-5 for Super Bowls, 5-0, or anywhere inbetween because there is such an element of luck to them.  An 8 year Lombardi Trophy drought is a lot when you have had Tom Brady as your QB, but the Pats made 2 and they were one Troy Brown in cut away from making it to another (they definitely would have beat Grossman)

    It is a completely fair argument to say he has not drafted well and if we had better players then we would have had two more superbowls. We also could have had at least one more super bowl if the Pats had been able to recover any 1 of the 5 Giant fumbles they forced in those two games.  I can't help but wonder if people who think he is average or above average would change their vote if one or both Giant Super Bowl games had been won. 

    Thanks for revising the poll.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    http://www.robertniles.com/stats/graphics/stndv.gif

    A bell curve. 

    Red is average green is above/below average Blue is good/bad white is great/terrible.

    Using bell curve as an example of why you cant name Gm's better then BB is a copout, and a straight out lie.

    Lets do a weighted system.

    Regular season wins
    Playoff seasons
    Playoff wins
    Superbowl loss
    Superbowl wins.

    Every regular season game is a point
    Every playoff season is 5 points
    Every playoff win is a 2 points
    every superbowl loss is 10 points
    Every superbowl win is 20 points

    Pretty simple right?

    i dont have time right now to do every team but here are a list of what i would consider elite teams which wouldnt suprise me to see in a superbowl every year:

    Patriots-112
    Steelers-113
    Colts(a joke but for past performance)-85
    Packers-105
    Saints-93
    Eagles-65
    Ravens-79
    Giants-116

    What this shows is there are 2 teams who have had better sucsess since 2007 then the patriots, The steelers and the giants.

    Green bay is a future threat because of their recent surge, and superbowl win.

    Feel free to prove me wrong, but i judge a GM based on how well a team performs every year, and the patriots are on top of the league every single year.

    put all that on brady is you want, but im going to call you a fool for it.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll. : Who else has Brady?
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    WELL BABE, THE ANSWER TOT HAT IS REALLLLLLLY SIMPLE: THE COLTS HAD MANNING, THE PACKERS HAD STARR, THE 49ERS HAD MONTANA, THE COWBOPYS HAD AIKMAN... I COULD CONTINUE...

    But the point is that OF COURSE the Pats have a top flight QB - after all BB is the GM. But there are 53 players on the roster. Brady does not win games by himself. In fact Brady has not won a SB in a long time!!!! But that doesn't mean he isn't exceptional any more than it means BB is not exceptional.

    Remember, this is not basketball where one player can make an overwhelmingly huge difference. Certainly one player like Brady can make a very big difference but the BB Pats went 11-5 without him. ELEVEN and FIVE!!!!!!

    I would liek to say game set and match but you are a one trick pony and you will repeat over and over as if saying it again makes it any more true!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]Lol this poll. Okay 3 people listed him as Below average. That means there are 3 people who think there are at least 16 teams with better Gm's. Please man up, if you voted below average list the 16 Gm's better then BB 3 people listed him as average, same situation list even 10 gm's better then BB. Great and good are both way ahead, with above average tailing by a half dozen votes. Personally id put him in the top 3, with 5 being on his worst year. Id list that as great 1-3: great 4-7: good 8-12: above average 13-18: average Everything else below average. If you can HONESTLY say you think there are between 6 and 18 teams doing a better job then BB is doing i have to question your mental health state.
    Posted by ChasaB[/QUOTE]

    Right on!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]If we are looking at this as a bell curve, then we need to compare BB to the other GMs of the salary cap era.  A bell curve is developed based on peer performance and that is what we should use. Based on the above, I rate him as a great GM.  He absolutely has missed a lot, but he has also drafted many fantasitic players and has signed and traded for many great FAs and players respectively.  Babe, I have just about given up on getiing you to provide a name, but if you are saying there is a bell curve then there HAS to be at least 1 great GM you can name; otherwise no bell curve exists. I assume you would say Jerry Reese and since you seem to be very critical of BB, I compared BB and JR's drafts.  I am not really sure how to determine the overall success of one or the other and I am not necessarily well versed on all of the Giants roster, but since 2007 JR has drafted 4 or 5 pro bowl players and BB has drafted 4 or 5 pro bowl players.  Each has numerous players still on the roster who make some contribution to the team.  While BB has made bad choice "The Great" Jerry Reese hasn't exactly blown the doors off the draft with the exception of his '07 draft class. Again, feel free to clarify this for me but I am still really struggling to understand what makes a great GM in your mind. How much draft success does one need to have?  Keep in mind, JR has not had to worry about drafting the QB position either during his tenure. I read an article recently talking about how the Patriots could easily be 0-5 for Super Bowls, 5-0, or anywhere inbetween because there is such an element of luck to them.  An 8 year Lombardi Trophy drought is a lot when you have had Tom Brady as your QB, but the Pats made 2 and they were one Troy Brown in cut away from making it to another (they definitely would have beat Grossman) It is a completely fair argument to say he has not drafted well and if we had better players then we would have had two more superbowls. We also could have had at least one more super bowl if the Pats had been able to recover any 1 of the 5 Giant fumbles they forced in those two games.  I can't help but wonder if people who think he is average or above average would change their vote if one or both Giant Super Bowl games had been won.  Thanks for revising the poll.
    Posted by jrcahill[/QUOTE]

    This is an excellent post. It recognizes that the GM is so far removed from the "bounces of the ball" that the best a GM can do is put together a really competitive roster and coaching staff, keep the cap in perspective for long term, and make changes to keep the chemistry in balance. Long-term record, long-term percentages of making it into the playoffs and long-term percentages of making it to the SB are meaningful.

    NECESSARILY implied is comparing your record to anyone and everyone else's. AND THAT IS WHERE THE PROOF IS.

    Saying Brady, Brady, Brady is meaningless and misses the point by sooo much....

    In any case - there are NO GMs in the cap whose recrod matches up to BB. None. Zero. Nada. And the ones who have done well have had their own special player(s) - Peyton Manning or Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers or that guy for the Giants who caught the football against his helmet in the 2007 SB. Now how do you think the greatest GM - whoever he is or was - would have changed that play?
     
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]http://www.robertniles.com/stats/graphics/stndv.gif A bell curve.  Red is average green is above/below average Blue is good/bad white is great/terrible. Using bell curve as an example of why you cant name Gm's better then BB is a copout, and a straight out lie. Lets do a weighted system. Regular season wins Playoff seasons Playoff wins Superbowl loss Superbowl wins. Every regular season game is a point Every playoff season is 5 points Every playoff win is a 2 points every superbowl loss is 10 points Every superbowl win is 20 points Pretty simple right? i dont have time right now to do every team but here are a list of what i would consider elite teams which wouldnt suprise me to see in a superbowl every year: Patriots-112 Steelers-113 Colts(a joke but for past performance)-85 Packers-105 Saints-93 Eagles-65 Ravens-79 Giants-116 What this shows is there are 2 teams who have had better sucsess since 2007 then the patriots, The steelers and the giants. Green bay is a future threat because of their recent surge, and superbowl win. Feel free to prove me wrong, but i judge a GM based on how well a team performs every year, and the patriots are on top of the league every single year. put all that on brady is you want, but im going to call you a fool for it.
    Posted by ChasaB[/QUOTE]

    I like the approach. And while I appreciate you doing the math from 2007 to the present WHY not do it for BB since his first year here!????? Aside from the curiosity factor why wouldn't you start with the full record? Why cherry pick?

    I suppose you could also derive an average score by dividing years so that you could compare someone who has been a GM for at least 6 years verse a GM who has done it for 10 - though it might be worth adding something to the average for longevity or reducing for shortness of timespan.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll. :In fact Brady has not won a SB in a long time!!!!
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]


    Yes. In fact, he hasn't won a SB since the many excellent players BB inherited from previous regimes got old. Hmmm.

    In other words, since the team is entirely BB built it has not gotten it done. That DOES say a lot. Glad you mentioned it.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll. : See I would disagree that his releases aren't GM related. They are, simply because coaches cannot release players. It's him acting in that capacity.  I would also add, he is a shrewd contract negotiator, rarely ever getting saddled with him priced stiffs.  And he is (in my mind) the best in the NFL at sifting through FA pools and getting value.  Anyone can spend the house on big names (Buffalo, over and over again) but BB always finds ways to fill his roster. I do find fault in his failures at some draft spots, but I try to keep in perspective his overall draft strategy ... BB takes MORE picks over less, rolling the dice on a couple seconds or a couple thirds over a first.  This really colors his draft performance, because he does have some cuts, but is also making more, lower selections than almost anyone.  People point to Brace and Butler, for instance, and it would seem like he just whiffed .... but he also maneveured two picks into four, picking up Chung and Vollmer on the back swing.  I really don't think too many people did much better than Chung and Vollmer in the first and second that year.  That, to me, is good GM-ing. 
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    It may be the GM in BB that is releasing the player, but it's the coach in BB that knows the guy needs to be released.

    He's not getting saddled with high priced stiffs by design. He doesn't sign them. He signs several cheap guys instead and hopes he can coach them up. Then someone like yourself or the pundits can't say he blew a big signing. It's contrived. You could say much the same thing about trading down rather than up on draft day.

    Of course BB the GM finds ways to fill the roster because he has a huge advantage over other GMs. He has the best coach in the game.

    BB the average GM relies incredibly on BB the great coach to make him look good.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    What would you say BB was as GM if he didn't have the huge advantage over the other guys of having the best coach in the game and the best QB in the game.


    I dare say BB the GM would have a pretty average team these days if he had an average QB and an average coach.

    Does any GM in the NFL have it easier than him?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrcahill. Show jrcahill's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    Portfolio,

    I agree that we should be using his complete track record but I am trying to figure out who Babe thinks is a great GM in the time BB's drafting has "gone in the tank" so to speak.  Reese was the most obvious so I chose him and his first draft was 2007.  Interestingly enough, using Chasa's system places BB very close to the top.  I would think his overall draft record since 2000-01 beats just about any other GM over the last 12 years.  Also, I know it has been said before but I feel as though the fact he has drafted (for the most part) at the bottom of the first round should be considered as well.  From what I recall, he has not messed up a top 10/top 16 draft pick (Seymour, Mayo, anyone else???) and most of his first round selections have been valuable to the team and/or successful.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]Portfolio, I agree that we should be using his complete track record but I am trying to figure out who Babe thinks is a great GM in the time BB's drafting has "gone in the tank" so to speak.  Reese was the most obvious so I chose him and his first draft was 2007.  Interestingly enough, using Chasa's system places BB very close to the top.  I would think his overall draft record since 2000-01 beats just about any other GM over the last 12 years.  Also, I know it has been said before but I feel as though the fact he has drafted (for the most part) at the bottom of the first round should be considered as well.  From what I recall, he has not messed up a top 10/top 16 draft pick (Seymour, Mayo, anyone else???) and most of his first round selections have been valuable to the team and/or successful.
    Posted by jrcahill[/QUOTE]


    I wouldn't say Ty Warren was a fabulous #13 pick.

    How good would Newsome's Ravens be with BB as HC and Brady as QB? Dynastic.

    Give BB the HC and Brady the QB to Miami or NYJs and they dominate the division the last 5-7 years.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrcahill. Show jrcahill's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    I am not really sure an argument should be based on hypotheticals.  How good would any team be with the other team's superstar from offense or defense? This is a ridiculous argument based solely in speculation.  I guess the Raven's could be dynastic and perhaps the Jets or Dolphins could have dominated the division.  It is interesting you say that because when Brady was injured the Patriots tied for the best record in the division at 11-5 with the Dolphins. What happened to the Dolphins the next year?  And the year after? And the year after that?  How much sustained success have the Jets had?  Each GM has had the opportunity to draft their own good/very good/great QB but they haven't. Why not?  Maybe because the GM isn't very good? I really don't understand your point if there is one?

    From what I recall, Ty Warren helped to anchor one of the best 3-4 fronts in football from 2004-2007.  He should have made the Pro Bowl in 2006 after posting 84 tackles and 8 sacks but was overlooked. He consistently improved and won a Super Bowl with one of the best defenses assembled (helped lead a good '07 defense to another) and if I recall BB drafted all of the front 3: Seymour, Wilfork and Warren. I am not sure what else you are looking for unless you think every top half first round pick should make the Hall of Fame.

    Babe, I am really disappointed in you.  I wish you would directly address arguments but for some reason you avoid them. I think you make good points but it becomes frustrating when you won't directly answer questions. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]It is interesting you say that because when Brady was injured the Patriots tied for the best record in the division at 11-5 with the Dolphins. What happened to the Dolphins the next year?  And the year after? And the year after that?  How much sustained success have the Jets had?
    Posted by jrcahill[/QUOTE]

    The Dolphins who won the division that 11-5 year were 1-15 the year before and were a lsoing team the next 3 seasons. That pretty much tells al about the abberation that was the very soft schedule of that 11-5 team. Ditto a 4-12 jets team the year before went 9-7 against that schedule.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll. : I like the approach. And while I appreciate you doing the math from 2007 to the present WHY not do it for BB since his first year here!????? Aside from the curiosity factor why wouldn't you start with the full record? Why cherry pick? I suppose you could also derive an average score by dividing years so that you could compare someone who has been a GM for at least 6 years verse a GM who has done it for 10 - though it might be worth adding something to the average for longevity or reducing for shortness of timespan.
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]
    Mostly because of the effort required, and secondly it just wouldnt be even Close. the patriots won 3 superbowls in 4 years, Thats 60+5+2*each playoff game+1*each win.

    No team would be within 50 points of the patriots.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE] From what I recall, Ty Warren helped to anchor one of the best 3-4 fronts in football from 2004-2007.  He should have made the Pro Bowl in 2006 after posting 84 tackles and 8 sacks but was overlooked. He consistently improved and won a Super Bowl with one of the best defenses assembled (helped lead a good '07 defense to another)
    Posted by jrcahill[/QUOTE]

    In 8+ seasons he never made a pro-bowl. He averaged about 3.5 sacks a season. At best he was a "solid starter". Not really what your hoping for in a pick just out of the top 10. I'm just pointing that out. You had mentioned the high picks by name and I pointed that one out.

    BB's misses have come more in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, though he has a few whiffs in the 1st.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE] Babe, I am really disappointed in you.  I wish you would directly address arguments but for some reason you avoid them. I think you make good points but it becomes frustrating when you won't directly answer questions. 
    Posted by jrcahill[/QUOTE]

    I have consistently answered pertinent questions.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrcahill. Show jrcahill's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    Babe,

    Ok, fair enough about the soft schedule but I assume you think if the Fins had Brady it would have been enough to push them into the playoffs instead of finishing 1-15?  Again, hypotheticals which really can't and shouldn't affect an argument.

    Also, you have never answered, with a name, who you consider to be a great GM. Like I said earlier, if it is a bell curve, then BB is measured against his peers and there MUST be an extreme.  So who is it? Really it should be 2 or three names but I will settle for one. For the record: I don't consider any of the GMs who have won Super Bowls in the last 5-6 years an appropriate response. Specifically, name a football GM you consider to be great in the salary cap era.

    Thank you.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    He cant, as i showed earlier the only 2 teams are ahead of the patriots in performance since 2007 steelers and giants. if we expand that to 2000 the patriots would be so far ahead of the curve that it wouldnt really be fair to everyone else.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]Babe, Ok, fair enough about the soft schedule but I assume you think if the Fins had Brady it would have been enough to push them into the playoffs instead of finishing 1-15?  Again, hypotheticals which really can't and shouldn't affect an argument. Also, you have never answered, with a name, who you consider to be a great GM. Like I said earlier, if it is a bell curve, then BB is measured against his peers and there MUST be an extreme.  So who is it? Really it should be 2 or three names but I will settle for one. For the record: I don't consider any of the GMs who have won Super Bowls in the last 5-6 years an appropriate response. Specifically, name a football GM you consider to be great in the salary cap era. Thank you.
    Posted by jrcahill[/QUOTE]

    I don't consider any GMs to be great in the salary cap era.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrcahill. Show jrcahill's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    Well if there aren't any great GMs then there isn't a bell curve.

    Babe, what factors make a great GM?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.

    In Response to Re: New and improved BB the GM poll.:
    [QUOTE]Well if there aren't any great GMs then there isn't a bell curve. Babe, what factors make a great GM?
    Posted by jrcahill[/QUOTE]


    Deviations from the norm are rare in a bell curve. You wouldn't have great GMs every single chunk of years.

    The dynasties are probably where you see greatness most. But in BB's case Pioli was actually the GM and much of the team was built from his predecessors.

    The obvious factors make a great GM. Consistently drafting well in the early rounds, signing quality FAs and making good trades. The ability to manage the cap and know when to let your own walk is also important.
     

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