NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

     

    1  Military , most won't quibble with you, but he slashed their pay  / benefitswhile giving everyone else in the fed gov a raise, and they don't like Obama much. he is slashing the size. I am still mullimg that over.

     2 foreign policy, when we leave a vacuum bad guys take over

    Pacific.   China is running over all our allies. There are non military things we can do. But China knows that Obama is a weakling. 

    Mid East . Duplicitous to Israel, Arab spring a disaster, Egypt forced to Russia, Saudi Arabia looking to have nuclear arms, he takes away sanctions from Iran  and iran has not stopped their nuclear program. Iran knows Obama is a weakling

    Russia, Obama gave away missile defense for nothing, reducing our arms for nothing, let them take Georgia without a peep, told him he could be more flexible after the election.For what?Warns Russia not to go into Ukraine, Putin laughs and goes in. He knows Obama is a weakling

    South America , Venezuela is tipping away from a bad guy. We have trade agreements that would make domestic jobs, and he lets it sit for political reasons

    Africa. What policy? He only cares about his mother country Kenya, or did you hear how is bro got an IRS waiver to raise money in the USA in 3 weeks?

     

    The idea is to use all of the economic and diplomatic cards long before military ones are ever, ever needed. Obama has given away everything, and what does he do. He reduces the size of the military. And Putin docks war ships in Cuba

    We, the world,are in much more dangerous times because these mafiosos feel they have a free hand. It is sort of weak to now say there is nothing we can do. 

    I am sure there is more but

    Obama is a naïf, a boooooob and dangerous , at best incompetent and definitely impotent

    3 obamacare. There have 27 , maybe unconstitutional , changes made to obamacare and Reid says that all the problems are lies

    more people are going to be uninsured than were insured

    its more expensive

    people have lost ther docs and insurance

    IT contracts were given to cronies and make a website that still doesn't work? They did even build the system on how to get payments thru to the insurance companies. The website is NOT safe and they force people to use it?

    my wife works in a hospital, that the Feds just built, it's going broke, they have cut her hrs to temp hours, where she can't get benefits. most of the docs are now Indian. 

    There are more problems coming. The biz waiver, and there are claw back clauses that are going to screw people at tax time

    So now you want to see if there is a miracle to fix this ? Do you believe in God?

    as I said the people are getting hurt but we wait while it explodes.

    And you think universal care is going to work with these bozos? Really?

    it may work in Canada, but you have waiting lines we have never had here, you have the fraction of the people, you don't have the same political nitemare there as with the states, And Canada is using their petro dollars to pay for it. WThis is three times as expensive as quoted and we are printing money

    no ,  There is certainly a better way, it should be free market based cross state insurance, let small biz group together, develop teaching clinics for the poor! Just an idea,  Instead of figuring out how gov can screw things up, figure out how to have a regulated system that the medical professionals can work efficiently ( btw, you do know that teddy Kennedy shoved hos down our throats?)

    4 Reagan. Well at the time the gov led us to double digit unemployment, double digit inflation, gas lines, foreign policy disasters, a trade deficit and a huge debt. When he got in things changed and he fixed SS and Medicare until now. He was a giant with Russia ( notice how he    Defeated Russia with out a shot, but Obama Can do nothing?) No when Reagan was there people were proud to be Americans, thought the gov could work and there was a future,

    I think your take is incomplete, it was the basis for the 90's, people were ok with the gov

    5 education. Scores are down , we graduate too many illiterates. obama, deblasio and the yea ers unions kill charter schools. Michele enacts diet requirements, kids hate it, throw out food. 

    Dont always like norville , When I think of big local gov, I think Detroit. 

    Gov too big? Well even Obama said that, cause it is unmanageable, with fed unions, congress, and a structure no one can change, and when they do it is probably worse

    your fears of it melting away, why? a gov program never goes away

    your fear that the gov will not be there when we need it? Unless we fix the unfounded liabilities we are the USA Titanic. These guys are incapable.

     

    enuf for now

    ciao

     

     

     

     



    You've sort of switched your argument to one about Obama's competency.  I'm not going to defend Obama because, honestly, I'm not terribly impressed with him.  He's not as bad as Fox News will tell you, but I don't think he's great either.  Is he worse than Bush? No, but I'm not sure he's much better.  Clinton was the last good President we've had--like his politics or not, he was far smarter and far more effective than anyone since. 

     

    My basic point is that a big, complex society like ours needs a big, complex government.  Small government idealism may sound nice, but it's not practical in the real world we live in.  We do need better government.  The US government is not performing at the level it should be.  But that doesn't mean smaller government is the answer.  Better government is what we really need. 

    On the Canadian health system, the rumours of long waits are greatly exaggerated.  When I moved here, my cardiologist at Mass General recommended a cardiologist at Toronto General.  I called the cardiologist and got an appointment within a week.  In my entire time in Massachusetts I never once got an appointment with a specialist as fast I got it in Canada.  That's been my general experience here.  No delays at all.  I call my family doctor here for an appointment and generally see her the same afternoon.  Now in rural areas it may be different (as it is in the US in rural areas).  But here in the big city, there are few waits for most care, at least in what I've experienced.  In fact, I wait less in Canada than I did in the US. 

    I've also never once had to pay a bill for my care.  No deductibles, no copays, no cost.  Yes, I know I pay with taxes, but when I go to the doctor, all I need to do is show my card and I get what I need.  Think about that.  No disputes with insurance companies, no huge deductibles, no copayments, no multi-thousand dollar annual insurance bills, no questions.  Just show your card and you get the care you need. 

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mellymel3. Show mellymel3's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    You are asking me to deal with facts? Is that a joke? You haven't supported anything you say with facts yet feel you can challenge others?

    Really?

    What shall we talk about? I do realize you are a Canadien but shall we discuss;

    1. Health care and the cost thereof?

    2. http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ The national debt?

    3. The state of public schools in america?

    4. The trillion dollar debacle that is SS?

    5. How about local like the RMV?

     

    You were asked to explain what Government does well. Do you have the capacity to do so? Is so, please do?

    Dispensing political double speak doesn't cut it.




    Healthcare costs...

    The idea behind creating large groups is to lower costs and centralize services as much as possible...the larger the group experience, the easier the burden sharing and lower the costs...iit's grabbing younger, healthier people to offset the costs of older, sicker people... also easier to participate in preventative medicine which has proven to keep all costs low....smaller groups equals higher rates...it gives private insurance comp-anies to raise rates at ten or fifteen times the rate of inflation...the rate of inflation of health care is the #1 contributor to the yearly increase in the cost of living in the USA...lowering the RATE of increase by creating larger risk pools substantially lowers the rate of increase of Health care...that is a fact even the insurance companies agree with and it's why they pay lobbyists to put adds on TV to try to repeal the Affordable Care Act

    National Debt:

    With the slightly higher taqx increase on upper incomes and increases in economic growth since Obama has been President, the deficit now is the lowest it's been since the year before he came into office, and that's after the Bush caused bailouts of the Auto Industry, the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and IAG and Wall Street banks...yes, Obama had to deal with saving western economies from disaster and Bush's paying for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan by borrowing , not pay as you go, and at the same time lowering taxes for the richest Americans, creating the worst deficits in the Countries history and STILL has managed to creating the lowest deficit since before Bush left office and created more domestic oil and energy than anyone in the Nation's history...

    Public Schools In  America:

    Bush's Texas solution of "no child left behind" has been an utter failure...Students don't learn anything but how to take the standardized tests because  teachers can't just teach, thye are judged on how well the students do in these moronic tests which then become geared to teaching to the lowest common denominator...most people who can afford it send their kids to private school because of this...our ability in math and science is at it's lowest level EVER....Texas, BTW, ranks what, 48 out of 50 states for public school efficacy?...And the Republicans in Congress want to cut more and more saying the funds are not needed...maybe it's because most Republicans can afford to send their kids to private schools, or live in wealthier districts that track students into higher and lower ability groups, like it ued to be everywhere before he BUSH destrutive budgets...

    What trillion dollar debacle at SS? It's solvent for about 20 more years and if they push the eligibility age back a year or two, it will be solvent for 50...what right wing source will you quote for this, Fox News or News Max?

     

    Local RMV:

    Heck, ya got me there...they suck from coast to coast, every state, every office...but that's because it's a needed item to keep drivers safe, or as safe as possible....I have no gripe with them until I have to wait in line to register a car...once every 5 or 6 years ain't that bad dude...

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    You have a point, but right now the whole dem party is Obama, and I did say that this progressive big Gov group is failing. HRC who may be president is no different, Biden? That's funny

    So unless you have some one to run it, we still have a problem with big gov. right?

    And we are going to have big gov , in terms of dollars, but it has to be reigned in but aLos

    on regulations . We have more obamacare, EPA and Dodd frank being written right now  thousands of pages. 

    your point on having big complex gov, Complex systems are probably doomed as they are implemented.

    too complex -no one knows what is going on and then here come  the lawyers ( which is the other thing I forgot about our medical system)

    I think the gov has to construct the roads  - figuratively , have bright line rules, allow the private sector to do what it does best, be efficient and solve problems. Some industries are complex But go lightly with a scalpel

    Do you know that beginning this year I have to give a 1099 to almost everyone I pay moneY? stop this creep!

    my doctor asks. If I have a gun. Along with info I don't tell him. My derm doc has To know about my sex life, etc

    They changed the patent rules, and that now is a problem. My dad who was a patent attorney is rolling over in his grave

    I am in the design and construction biz, I have new undefined rules I must follow that are expensive and often not really needed, some are , most ?.

    Then there is a plan to define the energy efficiency of my house before I sell it , Christ it is 70 yrs old, I will have to rebuild it, I might as well  tear it down

    They changed some of the stock trade rules, the up tick rule for example. It made it difficult to play shorting stock games in a falling market. You see Wide swings in a down market that's why

     

     

     I do want tou to revisit your feelings on Reagan, when he left I felt good about the gov 

    When he took over gov was a mess, the USA was failing, not so after. It was the basis for the90s. 

    There are pluses and minuses with everything, I hate buracracies,  hate it. I don't want them in my medical care.  Never

    it goes on and on

    lots of points here but I am trying to give a sense of why my side feels as we do

    everyday I came home, since obama was elected I turned on the news and said w. T. F 

    and the dems, no matter what the issue walked lock step behind Obama and them blame everyone else except themSelves. It would be like I didn't admit my bad about pelosi and blamed you lol

    the frustration is grueling.

    But I also want to understand more from your perceptions about  some time

    ciao

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    I've been largely an observer since the middle pages of this thread but there are a couple of points that I'd like to address:

    The point made about slashing military pay and benes while giving others in govt a raise - as best I can determine that is more perception than reality.  Obama has actually done quite a bit on behalf of military members and their families.  The recent budget compromise that involved a reduction in COLA's on military retirement was actually devised and driven by Paul Ryan who posted the most absurd statement I've ever read in my life about military retirement - that it is and I quote 'overly generous' - on his budget committee web site

    Affordable Care Act (OBAMA) - apart from a disastrous rollout, my only real issue with the ACA is that it doesn't go far enough.  I've been in so-called 'govt run health care' since age 17 and I can assure you that my experience with it has been nothing but positive.  It actually works rather well as compared to a lot of insurance based plans.  I provide health care for my employees and have for over 20 years and finding a plan that is both affordable for the employer and actually provides decent coverage (without monster deductibles) ain't an easy task

    Big Govt - not entirely certain what we mean by this.  There are certain things that govt can and should do and largely does well that can't be privatized.  Law enforcement (at all levels), foreign affairs, military, providing the structural framework for a society in which all have the opportunity to succeed.  We need an FDA, an FAA, an EPA (actually initiated by Richard Nixon).  Where govt goes off the rails is where there is so much polarization that things simply don't get done.  I mean Congress, on both sides, has done some rather silly things that have resulted in moe harm than good.  The number of 'centrists' in Congress has shrunk from something in the vicinity of 40% (D's and R's) to less than 10% over the past 15 years or so.  The endless fingerpointing and nay-saying is not how it was meant to be nor is it something that has always been the case.

    Too many generals and admirals - not entirely sure what this means.  After the collapse of the Soviet Union the DOD underwent a massive restructuring, consolidated a number of large commands and eliminated a signficant number of flag and general officer positions (flag officers are admirals).  There is a congressionally mandated ceiling on the number of flag and general officers.  There actually is a process through which these positions are reivewed periodically.

    National Debt - the national debt is owned by both sides.  Ronald Reagan restored our faith in our country but he also did so by tripling the national debt.  Bush the first added another trillion, Clinton was actually paying it down when he left office, Bush the second doubled it.  Rough numbers:  $1 trillion to $3 trillion under Reagan, $4 trillion under Bush I, $5 trillion but shrinking under Clinton, to just under $10 trillion under Bush II.  Yes, it has grown under Obama but a good bit of it is the actual interest on previous debt.  The notion that he's spending the country into bankrupcy is really not supported by the facts.

     

    Just some observations.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    It's kinda like the arguement my Brother and I had in the middle of the great north woods as to whose fault it was we were lost in the middle of nowhere, didn't matter, we were lost.

    No matter whose debt it is...it's skyrocketing every day.

    http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

    The effects of Goverment run heath care for the masses is not yet known. However with medicare and medicaid you can see what will happen. Runaway cost and fraud.

    Government subsidies only raise costs.

    When Employers started subsidizing health care the providers began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government started subsidizing home ownership home costs began rising and builders and banks began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government began subsidizing the cost of a College education schools began tacking on juice money.

    And many think we are better off because of this. They think it's something for nothing. It's what makes TV show like lets make a deal work.

    Those of us who were against the aspect of Government run health care have lost. All we can do is sit back and watch how well it works or doesn't.

    I'm sorry, all I can do is look at the data of Medicare, Medicaid and what the Government has done to SS, and I have no reason to believ it will be run well.

     

     

     

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    I agree with everything No pen said

    plus

    its not just the dollars with Medicare and Medicaid, it's that the fees for the docs are so low that there wont be docs to provide service, so it's way more than $" 

    Certainly not taking GOP off the hook for the debt and we are now here. We have to do something about the long term debt and unfounded liabilities. the latest numbers I heard on SS, MC running out of money are a lot shorter than AtJ.s

    with SS they have added so many bennies, like disability for some who never paid into the system, and of course we hear the numbers for the ones who have, but these were never part of the program ,it's sort of hidden welfare. This is just a comment

    ACA - with all the problems I stated it is an unmitigated disaster now, tomorrow and forever, end of story for me. People are going to suffer. this is big gov and they cannot do it.

    The VA is no different. The vets back log is a disgrace, And they have been systematically purging names off the back log list, we don't even know really how many there sre

    There may be portions of some fed med plans work, but they still get an F 

    As to the military budget, . First they can't actually track what they spend. Which I find incomprehensible. Jesus the cc companies do it right now, It's just developing a coding scheme for evry check. , I did know that their pay had previously gone up, but now it's going down as part of the latest budget, my real problem is he raised the fed emplyees.

    As to too many adm and gens. This is more a question of what is our military strategy, I have no idea with the change in technology and what it means to how we spend money, But if we are going to a 200ship ? navy we have too many people. 

    One last thing, slashing the budget is also a signal to the bad guys

    Count the military for me as one big black box that I suspect is in disarray

    big Gov to me it's not just $ it's how they get involved and how poorly they manage it.Every time I hear invest ment I hear boondoggle. I just want them involved in true structural projects like our grid. Not in green energy. I heard even Gore said ethology was a bad decision ( one of my black marks on bush) And we hear often how the money goes to campaign buddie. $1k in donations, 1 m or b in graft.this is an endless subjects

    there are a whole list of things the gov has yo do. those common carrier activities like FAA are not the targets, That is a red herring. 

    I cannot encourage you enuf to google Ricard a epstein and just listen to his videos. He was obamas boss at Chicago Law,  Almost all the vids have nothing to do with Obama, there are a few personal , but almost all policy driven  going back years. You get an appreciation for how complex our law is, but also a belief that it can all work.  he just published A Classic  Liberal, He is absolutely brilliant and interesting. He speaks fast, in whole paragraphs, I sometimes have to listen more than once.

    All have a nice day

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to ATJ's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've been largely an observer since the middle pages of this thread but there are a couple of points that I'd like to address:

    The point made about slashing military pay and benes while giving others in govt a raise - as best I can determine that is more perception than reality.  Obama has actually done quite a bit on behalf of military members and their families.  The recent budget compromise that involved a reduction in COLA's on military retirement was actually devised and driven by Paul Ryan who posted the most absurd statement I've ever read in my life about military retirement - that it is and I quote 'overly generous' - on his budget committee web site

    Affordable Care Act (OBAMA) - apart from a disastrous rollout, my only real issue with the ACA is that it doesn't go far enough.  I've been in so-called 'govt run health care' since age 17 and I can assure you that my experience with it has been nothing but positive.  It actually works rather well as compared to a lot of insurance based plans.  I provide health care for my employees and have for over 20 years and finding a plan that is both affordable for the employer and actually provides decent coverage (without monster deductibles) ain't an easy task

    Big Govt - not entirely certain what we mean by this.  There are certain things that govt can and should do and largely does well that can't be privatized.  Law enforcement (at all levels), foreign affairs, military, providing the structural framework for a society in which all have the opportunity to succeed.  We need an FDA, an FAA, an EPA (actually initiated by Richard Nixon).  Where govt goes off the rails is where there is so much polarization that things simply don't get done.  I mean Congress, on both sides, has done some rather silly things that have resulted in moe harm than good.  The number of 'centrists' in Congress has shrunk from something in the vicinity of 40% (D's and R's) to less than 10% over the past 15 years or so.  The endless fingerpointing and nay-saying is not how it was meant to be nor is it something that has always been the case.

    Too many generals and admirals - not entirely sure what this means.  After the collapse of the Soviet Union the DOD underwent a massive restructuring, consolidated a number of large commands and eliminated a signficant number of flag and general officer positions (flag officers are admirals).  There is a congressionally mandated ceiling on the number of flag and general officers.  There actually is a process through which these positions are reivewed periodically.

    National Debt - the national debt is owned by both sides.  Ronald Reagan restored our faith in our country but he also did so by tripling the national debt.  Bush the first added another trillion, Clinton was actually paying it down when he left office, Bush the second doubled it.  Rough numbers:  $1 trillion to $3 trillion under Reagan, $4 trillion under Bush I, $5 trillion but shrinking under Clinton, to just under $10 trillion under Bush II.  Yes, it has grown under Obama but a good bit of it is the actual interest on previous debt.  The notion that he's spending the country into bankrupcy is really not supported by the facts.

     

    Just some observations.

    [/QUOTE]

    A great post, ATJ.  

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from fishers5. Show fishers5's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    I have a question for those individuals who believe in a government that has control over most of our lives.  How did you come to this belief??  was it parental teaching , public schooling, or living with like minded people and that's all you heard.?

    studying history of all the countries that have allowed it to happen to them does not end well for the individual people while the elites do just fine .

    my son in law is a closet progressive and is sensitive when discussing this subject seriously.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to fishers5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I have a question for those individuals who believe in a government that has control over most of our lives.  How did you come to this belief??  was it parental teaching , public schooling, or living with like minded people and that's all you heard.?

    studying history of all the countries that have allowed it to happen to them does not end well for the individual people while the elites do just fine .

    my son in law is a closet progressive and is sensitive when discussing this subject seriously.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    We don't believe that government "controls" most of our lives.  I feel like I'm pretty free and I think government actually enables a lot of that freedom.  I know, for instance, that because of what the government does, I have good roads to drive on, that the roads are plowed when it snows and salted when it's icy, that my car and the other cars on the road are safe to drive, and that the rules for safe driving are clear and enforced.  That means it's safe and easy for me to get to work and earn good money working.  To me, these government services enhance my freedom.  They surely don't limit it. 

    I think that's the difference.  Some of us recognize that government actually makes the world better for us and therefore enables us to live more free, more fulfilling lives.  I guess I don't understand how conservatives don't see the obvious truth that having a good (and yes fairly extensive) goverment makes life much, much better--and (in meaningful ways) much more free. Sure, there are always going to be some rules and regulations you don't like and there are always going to be times when government is inefficient or frustrating in various ways--but overall, I think the downsides are minor when compared with the overall extensive benefits the government provides us as a people. 

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to fishers5's comment:

    I have a question for those individuals who believe in a government that has control over most of our lives.  How did you come to this belief??  was it parental teaching , public schooling, or living with like minded people and that's all you heard.?

    studying history of all the countries that have allowed it to happen to them does not end well for the individual people while the elites do just fine .

    my son in law is a closet progressive and is sensitive when discussing this subject seriously.

     




    When you start believing that Government provides to you certain rights as people you have allowed yourself to penned by the wolf.

    The Government doesn't provide you with anything.

    I'll say it again, THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T PROVIDE YOU WITH ANYTHING.

    And you know why? THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T ACTUALLY WORK FOR OR OWN ANYTHING.

    Government doesn't create wealth, it takes it.

    The Government doesn't have a penny of it's own money. Everything the Governemnt has it has taken form you.

    It makes me want to rip out what's left of my hair when some say the Government provides....

    Or when many say we must all pay our "fair" share. I believe Sowell said it best when he asked "what exactly is your fair share of what someone else has earned"

    I don't know at what point many picked up a belief that the Governemnt can take care of us with a cradle to grave mentality, it doesn't work.

    Why do we need a Government Bureaucracy to build roads?

    Like the Big Dig? Like the Mass Pike?

    The same Mass Pike that was paid for over twenty years ago but still has tolls as once the Government gets it's hands on your money you ain't getting it back. To maintain it? The Pike costs over ten times the national average to maintain it.

    You have a system in things like the Pike where the money we are being forced to pay is being spent on huge salaries, pensions and a bloated system where the Toll Takers are hauling in over 60K per....this would not happen in the private sector. The Pike exists to pay for itself as over 80% of what they take from us they spend on themselves.

    Marie Antoinette has nothing on the bloated Government that exists today.

    The RMV, same thing, car dealers could issue plates, Insurance companies could issue plates and registrations, easily. Auto schools could issue lic etc.

    The RMV exists to keep itself going, doesn't exist for us.

    Schools, 25 years and running of lower and lower test scores. Why should my Government tell me where I must eduacate my kids? It's none of their beeswax. If I want them in public school I'll send them...if I choose private stop taxing me for public schools that I don't use.

    How's Deval Patrick doing with DCF.....ever see such a total and complete cluster you know what.

    Government screws up, pucks up, steals from every single thing it touches, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

    Well, I started out this am saying I wouldn't let my BP go up again today....so much for that.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    The government does provide things.  Sure we pay for what the government provides through our tax dollars, but that doesn't mean the government doesn't provide services--and highly valuable ones at that.  The government also does create wealth.  Try doing business in a country without good laws and the ability to enforce those laws.  The legal system makes business possible.  And that contributes to wealth creation.  

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to ATJ's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    National Debt -

    Clinton was actually paying it down when he left office,

    [/QUOTE]

    Largest tax increase in history.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to fishers5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I have a question for those individuals who believe in a government that has control over most of our lives.  How did you come to this belief??  was it parental teaching , public schooling, or living with like minded people and that's all you heard.?

    studying history of all the countries that have allowed it to happen to them does not end well for the individual people while the elites do just fine .

    my son in law is a closet progressive and is sensitive when discussing this subject seriously.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    We don't believe that government "controls" most of our lives.  I feel like I'm pretty free and I think government actually enables a lot of that freedom.  I know, for instance, that because of what the government does, I have good roads to drive on, that the roads are plowed when it snows and salted when it's icy, that my car and the other cars on the road are safe to drive, and that the rules for safe driving are clear and enforced.  That means it's safe and easy for me to get to work and earn good money working.  To me, these government services enhance my freedom.  They surely don't limit it. 

    I think that's the difference.  Some of us recognize that government actually makes the world better for us and therefore enables us to live more free, more fulfilling lives.  I guess I don't understand how conservatives don't see the obvious truth that having a good (and yes fairly extensive) goverment makes life much, much better--and (in meaningful ways) much more free. Sure, there are always going to be some rules and regulations you don't like and there are always going to be times when government is inefficient or frustrating in various ways--but overall, I think the downsides are minor when compared with the overall extensive benefits the government provides us as a people. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Phoney baloni. Most of what you refer to is provided by state government. Most conservatives crave more state control and less federal control, unlike yourself.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The government does provide things.  Sure we pay for what the government provides through our tax dollars, but that doesn't mean the government doesn't provide services--and highly valuable ones at that.  The government also does create wealth.  Try doing business in a country without good laws and the ability to enforce those laws.  The legal system makes business possible.  And that contributes to wealth creation.  

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Phoney baloni. The question is when is there enough government to assure stability. There would never be enough for you.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    Let's step back for a sec

    the gov was set up by the peoPle

    the people gave powers to the gov

    Some of these powers included having the gov provide essential services, including the military. For the sake of argument lets say the gov does a good job, and we won't argue whether or not we are spending too much or too little

    Since the 1930s the social transfer payments have gone from SS, To MC, to MC to Welfare to now the nose of the camel under the tent,  Obamacare.

    Everyone  of these programs to date has expanded its coverage and has ever expanding expense and gov intrusion into the private lives of its citizens,

    Only SS is run at an acceptable level, but even that the Pols have expanded benefits without paying for them, disability for one. it is structurally unfunded as we sit here. the progressives refuse to address it

    MC is sort of run ok, but we have massive fraud, people i know on it are not happy with it, Obamacare,  which stole $500b from MC is severely structurally unfunded, The progressives are not willing to address it. On top of that the government has cut service fees so and fewer and fewer docs will service MC. In 2018 the service is Scheduled to be worse  than Medicaid.

    Medicaid -  MC getting worse than MCaid is not a good thing. the service level is minimal with doc refusing to take them

    Welfare, everyone talks about Bill clinton balancing the budget, but he did it by  reforming welfare. The progressives yptiday have reversed what ever good Clinton did, All of the food stamp programs have exploded, a percentage hoes to non food vice items. The progressives will not address it

    Obamacare. I am not repeating the litany. It is the definition of abject failure, nice tench and graft. They ask for personal info they don't need, the cost  has tripled to date. the progressives have demonized anyone who has wanted to change it,  meanwhile they change the law like a banana republic dictator. and the Senate majority leader has call a private citizen a liar, said anything bad about it is a lie. they blame the republicans , Fox News and rush Limbaugh for not working

    So Pro, we will give you that gov does some of what is supposed to do, but where on earth have the progressive left has shown that they can run a damn thing? When do they take responsibility for their failures? 

    Lsstly, with the NSA collecting every electronic datum on every individual, and the IRS TARGETING INDIVIDUALS BASED ON POLITICAL ORIENTATION. How can you say the government should run anything with personal information? 

    With all this

    What "inside" you trusts them?

    and To give them the power to have Universal Care?

    and Canada isnt the USA

    It used to be that a good liberal would denounce this massive invasion of privacy, why aren't you? 

     

    I haven't called a name, or disparaged anyone, but this is why this side gets frustrated, I just want to understand because it seems so irrational.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

     

    Thomas Jefferson

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

     

    Thomas Jefferson



    Didn't stop Jefferson from pursuing a career in government . . . and also working hard to create one.  He knew despite the risks and challenges, we were better off with one than without. 

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

     

    Let's step back for a sec

    the gov was set up by the peoPle

    the people gave powers to the gov

    Some of these powers included having the gov provide essential services, including the military. For the sake of argument lets say the gov does a good job, and we won't argue whether or not we are spending too much or too little

    Since the 1930s the social transfer payments have gone from SS, To MC, to MC to Welfare to now the nose of the camel under the tent,  Obamacare.

    Everyone  of these programs to date has expanded its coverage and has ever expanding expense and gov intrusion into the private lives of its citizens,

    Only SS is run at an acceptable level, but even that the Pols have expanded benefits without paying for them, disability for one. it is structurally unfunded as we sit here. the progressives refuse to address it

    MC is sort of run ok, but we have massive fraud, people i know on it are not happy with it, Obamacare,  which stole $500b from MC is severely structurally unfunded, The progressives are not willing to address it. On top of that the government has cut service fees so and fewer and fewer docs will service MC. In 2018 the service is Scheduled to be worse  than Medicaid.

    Medicaid -  MC getting worse than MCaid is not a good thing. the service level is minimal with doc refusing to take them

    Welfare, everyone talks about Bill clinton balancing the budget, but he did it by  reforming welfare. The progressives yptiday have reversed what ever good Clinton did, All of the food stamp programs have exploded, a percentage hoes to non food vice items. The progressives will not address it

    Obamacare. I am not repeating the litany. It is the definition of abject failure, nice tench and graft. They ask for personal info they don't need, the cost  has tripled to date. the progressives have demonized anyone who has wanted to change it,  meanwhile they change the law like a banana republic dictator. and the Senate majority leader has call a private citizen a liar, said anything bad about it is a lie. they blame the republicans , Fox News and rush Limbaugh for not working

    So Pro, we will give you that gov does some of what is supposed to do, but where on earth have the progressive left has shown that they can run a damn thing? When do they take responsibility for their failures? 

    Lsstly, with the NSA collecting every electronic datum on every individual, and the IRS TARGETING INDIVIDUALS BASED ON POLITICAL ORIENTATION. How can you say the government should run anything with personal information? 

    With all this

    What "inside" you trusts them?

    and To give them the power to have Universal Care?

    and Canada isnt the USA

    It used to be that a good liberal would denounce this massive invasion of privacy, why aren't you? 

     

    I haven't called a name, or disparaged anyone, but this is why this side gets frustrated, I just want to understand because it seems so irrational.

     

     



    It's only irrational if (as you do above) one exaggerates the negatives and completely ignores all the good.  Whatever problems there may be with Medicare, do you really think this country would be better without it?  

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It's kinda like the arguement my Brother and I had in the middle of the great north woods as to whose fault it was we were lost in the middle of nowhere, didn't matter, we were lost.

    No matter whose debt it is...it's skyrocketing every day.

    http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

    The effects of Goverment run heath care for the masses is not yet known. However with medicare and medicaid you can see what will happen. Runaway cost and fraud.

    Government subsidies only raise costs.

    When Employers started subsidizing health care the providers began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government started subsidizing home ownership home costs began rising and builders and banks began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government began subsidizing the cost of a College education schools began tacking on juice money.

    And many think we are better off because of this. They think it's something for nothing. It's what makes TV show like lets make a deal work.

    Those of us who were against the aspect of Government run health care have lost. All we can do is sit back and watch how well it works or doesn't.

    I'm sorry, all I can do is look at the data of Medicare, Medicaid and what the Government has done to SS, and I have no reason to believ it will be run well.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    No More Looting (like the name)... a couple of quick observations without getting too deep:

    1. Tax code has been subsidizing home ownership for a LONGGGGG time. This is the mortgage deduction which is quite significant. THis is far far far from new.

    2. The new health care law is not government run health care at all. Nor is it government run health insurance. The health care is still provided by all the same people and hospitals and ERs. The insurance is ALL private insurance companies. The changes are in things like the mandate which we can argue about and do... and in setting some rules which we can argue about as well but I think are very appropriate.. like no lifetime limits, no taking away coverage for preexisting conditions (especially AFTER you have paid ALL your premiums and they have taken them), etc.

    Clearly there are points which we can discuss, agrue over, debate... perhaps find common ground and compromise? But the entire program is not really as it is so often stated. It is not geovernment RUN health care not is it government provided health insurance...

    No intent here to raise hackles, but I think there are just too many remarks that fly around political discussions that are not really truly accurate... they can be quite misleading.

    Regards.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to portfolio1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It's kinda like the arguement my Brother and I had in the middle of the great north woods as to whose fault it was we were lost in the middle of nowhere, didn't matter, we were lost.

    No matter whose debt it is...it's skyrocketing every day.

    http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

    The effects of Goverment run heath care for the masses is not yet known. However with medicare and medicaid you can see what will happen. Runaway cost and fraud.

    Government subsidies only raise costs.

    When Employers started subsidizing health care the providers began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government started subsidizing home ownership home costs began rising and builders and banks began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government began subsidizing the cost of a College education schools began tacking on juice money.

    And many think we are better off because of this. They think it's something for nothing. It's what makes TV show like lets make a deal work.

    Those of us who were against the aspect of Government run health care have lost. All we can do is sit back and watch how well it works or doesn't.

    I'm sorry, all I can do is look at the data of Medicare, Medicaid and what the Government has done to SS, and I have no reason to believ it will be run well.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    No More Looting (like the name)... a couple of quick observations without getting too deep:

    1. Tax code has been subsidizing home ownership for a LONGGGGG time. This is the mortgage deduction which is quite significant. THis is far far far from new.

    2. The new health care law is not government run health care at all. Nor is it government run health insurance. The health care is still provided by all the same people and hospitals and ERs. The insurance is ALL private insurance companies. The changes are in things like the mandate which we can argue about and do... and in setting some rules which we can argue about as well but I think are very appropriate.. like no lifetime limits, no taking away coverage for preexisting conditions (especially AFTER you have paid ALL your premiums and they have taken them), etc.

    Clearly there are points which we can discuss, agrue over, debate... perhaps find common ground and compromise? But the entire program is not really as it is so often stated. It is not geovernment RUN health care not is it government provided health insurance...

    No intent here to raise hackles, but I think there are just too many remarks that fly around political discussions that are not really truly accurate... they can be quite misleading.

    Regards.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Well yes but that is my point. We didn't get here overnight. Subsidies have driven up the cost of many things, they have hurt more than helped.

    I am stuck in my ways and it would take a stick of dynamite to convince me otherwise.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You have a point, but right now the whole dem party is Obama, and I did say that this progressive big Gov group is failing. HRC who may be president is no different, Biden? That's funny

    So unless you have some one to run it, we still have a problem with big gov. right?

    And we are going to have big gov , in terms of dollars, but it has to be reigned in but aLos

    on regulations . We have more obamacare, EPA and Dodd frank being written right now  thousands of pages. 

    your point on having big complex gov, Complex systems are probably doomed as they are implemented.

    too complex -no one knows what is going on and then here come  the lawyers ( which is the other thing I forgot about our medical system)

    I think the gov has to construct the roads  - figuratively , have bright line rules, allow the private sector to do what it does best, be efficient and solve problems. Some industries are complex But go lightly with a scalpel

    Do you know that beginning this year I have to give a 1099 to almost everyone I pay moneY? stop this creep!

    my doctor asks. If I have a gun. Along with info I don't tell him. My derm doc has To know about my sex life, etc

    They changed the patent rules, and that now is a problem. My dad who was a patent attorney is rolling over in his grave

    I am in the design and construction biz, I have new undefined rules I must follow that are expensive and often not really needed, some are , most ?.

    Then there is a plan to define the energy efficiency of my house before I sell it , Christ it is 70 yrs old, I will have to rebuild it, I might as well  tear it down

    They changed some of the stock trade rules, the up tick rule for example. It made it difficult to play shorting stock games in a falling market. You see Wide swings in a down market that's why

     

     

     I do want tou to revisit your feelings on Reagan, when he left I felt good about the gov 

    When he took over gov was a mess, the USA was failing, not so after. It was the basis for the90s. 

    There are pluses and minuses with everything, I hate buracracies,  hate it. I don't want them in my medical care.  Never

    it goes on and on

    lots of points here but I am trying to give a sense of why my side feels as we do

    everyday I came home, since obama was elected I turned on the news and said w. T. F 

    and the dems, no matter what the issue walked lock step behind Obama and them blame everyone else except themSelves. It would be like I didn't admit my bad about pelosi and blamed you lol

    the frustration is grueling.

    But I also want to understand more from your perceptions about  some time

    ciao

    [/QUOTE]

    Seawolf... there are some tightrope sort of issues you bring up. Dodd Frank for example. On the one hand the financial industry is rife with corruption. You cannot go a month or two without some serious scandal being uncovered or suspected. It is not surprising - where there is a lot of money involved some people will take every advantage they can even to the point of breaking the law and/or acting immorally. From the reports over the last 4 years or more of Swiss banks helping people cheat on taxes or worse, launder terrorist money, to fixing LIBOR (interest) rates, to insider trading to using your money and mine to illegally gamble for their own potential gain (we take the loss if they fail, they take the gains if tehy succeed - check out MF Global as one "shining" example). And we have not even started to raise the financial crises of 2008 and the role that MANY if not all of the large financial institutions played (I am not syaing it was only due to these companies but those are the guys that stood to make the bucks on the crime... and perpetrated it. THey are not the only ones we can point to but I am just now focused on them and their corruption).

    So there is a real true need to control what is very clearly rampant corruption (endemic to the entire industry) that ends up taking advantage.. .no ... ends up making us victims of their theft (which takes one form or another). So we really need laws that are clear and can help reign in this white collar fleecing of all of us. I will grant you that we can argue about any legislation. ANd in this case the financial industry has actually gutted in some places and created a lot of smoke to hide in in other places which make the proposed laws less effective. But that is the fault of letting the foxes MAKE the keys to the chicken coop! It is not a slight of big government per se.

    Again I think there is overlap in how we might both feel about some of this (not perfect agreement of course). But I do think that some of the points need to be seen for what they really are. Then if we disagree we do so on real facts or approaches and not on just not understanding each other.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to portfolio1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It's kinda like the arguement my Brother and I had in the middle of the great north woods as to whose fault it was we were lost in the middle of nowhere, didn't matter, we were lost.

    No matter whose debt it is...it's skyrocketing every day.

    http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

    The effects of Goverment run heath care for the masses is not yet known. However with medicare and medicaid you can see what will happen. Runaway cost and fraud.

    Government subsidies only raise costs.

    When Employers started subsidizing health care the providers began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government started subsidizing home ownership home costs began rising and builders and banks began tacking on juice money.

    When the Government began subsidizing the cost of a College education schools began tacking on juice money.

    And many think we are better off because of this. They think it's something for nothing. It's what makes TV show like lets make a deal work.

    Those of us who were against the aspect of Government run health care have lost. All we can do is sit back and watch how well it works or doesn't.

    I'm sorry, all I can do is look at the data of Medicare, Medicaid and what the Government has done to SS, and I have no reason to believ it will be run well.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    No More Looting (like the name)... a couple of quick observations without getting too deep:

    1. Tax code has been subsidizing home ownership for a LONGGGGG time. This is the mortgage deduction which is quite significant. THis is far far far from new.

    2. The new health care law is not government run health care at all. Nor is it government run health insurance. The health care is still provided by all the same people and hospitals and ERs. The insurance is ALL private insurance companies. The changes are in things like the mandate which we can argue about and do... and in setting some rules which we can argue about as well but I think are very appropriate.. like no lifetime limits, no taking away coverage for preexisting conditions (especially AFTER you have paid ALL your premiums and they have taken them), etc.

    Clearly there are points which we can discuss, agrue over, debate... perhaps find common ground and compromise? But the entire program is not really as it is so often stated. It is not geovernment RUN health care not is it government provided health insurance...

    No intent here to raise hackles, but I think there are just too many remarks that fly around political discussions that are not really truly accurate... they can be quite misleading.

    Regards.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Well yes but that is my point. We didn't get here overnight. Subsidies have driven up the cost of many things, they have hurt more than helped.

    I am stuck in my ways and it would take a stick of dynamite to convince me otherwise.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well, for starters you and I can then agree on various points that perhaps you did not think we could agree on.

    Also, I can understand that over a lifetime one does not simply change their perspective or approach to things readily if at all. But one of the things that I think is important is that I am not really asking anyone to change. But to see (1) that sometimes there is A LOT more agreement after you get past the rhetoric.. the idea that we are not in the same "club" (I am an independent and have a sizable dislike for both parties... not because I think there is no role for government but because I think the two parties are BOTH equally corrupt in their taking of money from (mostly) big businesses and wealthy individuals (and perhaps foreign money as well)) and (2) that most of us are not "enemies" of each other or of our country... that the heightened anger and even hate is ginned up (mostly to sell advertising on TV and newspapers and online... tell someone they have an enemy and they will stop and listen... and so you can sell whatever your advertisers are hawking today).

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

    You have a point, but right now the whole dem party is Obama, and I did say that this progressive big Gov group is failing. HRC who may be president is no different, Biden? That's funny

    So unless you have some one to run it, we still have a problem with big gov. right?

    And we are going to have big gov , in terms of dollars, but it has to be reigned in but aLos

    on regulations . We have more obamacare, EPA and Dodd frank being written right now  thousands of pages. 

    your point on having big complex gov, Complex systems are probably doomed as they are implemented.

    too complex -no one knows what is going on and then here come  the lawyers ( which is the other thing I forgot about our medical system)

    I think the gov has to construct the roads  - figuratively , have bright line rules, allow the private sector to do what it does best, be efficient and solve problems. Some industries are complex But go lightly with a scalpel

    Do you know that beginning this year I have to give a 1099 to almost everyone I pay moneY? stop this creep!

    my doctor asks. If I have a gun. Along with info I don't tell him. My derm doc has To know about my sex life, etc

    They changed the patent rules, and that now is a problem. My dad who was a patent attorney is rolling over in his grave

    I am in the design and construction biz, I have new undefined rules I must follow that are expensive and often not really needed, some are , most ?.

    Then there is a plan to define the energy efficiency of my house before I sell it , Christ it is 70 yrs old, I will have to rebuild it, I might as well  tear it down

    They changed some of the stock trade rules, the up tick rule for example. It made it difficult to play shorting stock games in a falling market. You see Wide swings in a down market that's why

     

     

     I do want tou to revisit your feelings on Reagan, when he left I felt good about the gov 

    When he took over gov was a mess, the USA was failing, not so after. It was the basis for the90s. 

    There are pluses and minuses with everything, I hate buracracies,  hate it. I don't want them in my medical care.  Never

    it goes on and on

    lots of points here but I am trying to give a sense of why my side feels as we do

    everyday I came home, since obama was elected I turned on the news and said w. T. F 

    and the dems, no matter what the issue walked lock step behind Obama and them blame everyone else except themSelves. It would be like I didn't admit my bad about pelosi and blamed you lol

    the frustration is grueling.

    But I also want to understand more from your perceptions about  some time

    ciao

     



    Seawolf... there are some tightrope sort of issues you bring up. Dodd Frank for example. On the one hand the financial industry is rife with corruption. You cannot go a month or two without some serious scandal being uncovered or suspected. It is not surprising - where there is a lot of money involved some people will take every advantage they can even to the point of breaking the law and/or acting immorally. From the reports over the last 4 years or more of Swiss banks helping people cheat on taxes or worse, launder terrorist money, to fixing LIBOR (interest) rates, to insider trading to using your money and mine to illegally gamble for their own potential gain (we take the loss if they fail, they take the gains if tehy succeed - check out MF Global as one "shining" example). And we have not even started to raise the financial crises of 2008 and the role that MANY if not all of the large financial institutions played (I am not syaing it was only due to these companies but those are the guys that stood to make the bucks on the crime... and perpetrated it. THey are not the only ones we can point to but I am just now focused on them and their corruption).

     

    So there is a real true need to control what is very clearly rampant corruption (endemic to the entire industry) that ends up taking advantage.. .no ... ends up making us victims of their theft (which takes one form or another). So we really need laws that are clear and can help reign in this white collar fleecing of all of us. I will grant you that we can argue about any legislation. ANd in this case the financial industry has actually gutted in some places and created a lot of smoke to hide in in other places which make the proposed laws less effective. But that is the fault of letting the foxes MAKE the keys to the chicken coop! It is not a slight of big government per se.

    Again I think there is overlap in how we might both feel about some of this (not perfect agreement of course). But I do think that some of the points need to be seen for what they really are. Then if we disagree we do so on real facts or approaches and not on just not understanding each other.

     



    I think they also let the big banks off and Fannie and Freddie too, while putting an un fair advantage on community and smaller banks, and the big banks can better afford to comply

    if people want to break the law you cannt stop them

    mf global was corzine and I think he broke sabranes oxley and got away with it 

    the other was insider trading -always has been a no no

    Are any of these cases from Dodd frank ?

    remember I am for good regulation 

    I wouldn t mind breaking the big banks up in concept, I think too much power in one place is not healthy, and btw the heads of the banks give heavily to dems, but they would give to re pubs if they were in power, would be a good check on both

    Dont know enuf of the details to argue too much , will just have to read the experts.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TSWFAN. Show TSWFAN's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else


    NOT TO WORRY. Neville Chamberlin aka Obama will take care of everything including global warming and rising sea levels.  First the Rhineland, then the Sudetenland: now Syria and the Ukraine. Next is Israel.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: NFL - Tells AZ- No or Else

    In response to TSWFAN's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    NOT TO WORRY. Neville Chamberlin aka Obama will take care of everything including global warming and rising sea levels.  First the Rhineland, then the Sudetenland: now Syria and the Ukraine. Next is Israel.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well he is a Nobel peace prize winner, and he got it for...

    someone help me I cant remember

     
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