NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    UD, this is ridiculous.  

    Again, your opinion that the players offers (and they've made a series of them, according to reports) aren't "generous" has no bearing on anything.  They are under no obligation to be generous to the owners. In a negotiation they have the same rights to assert their self interest as the owners do. The players have shown willingness to compromise on many of the owners' demands.  The crux of the dispute (apparently) is that the owners want to significantly limit future salary growth, ostensibly because expenses are unmanageable.  The players--quite reasonably--have asked for proof of expense growth as a prerequisite to signing any agreement that limits their future pay growth.  There's nothing unusual about this. It happens all the time in collective bargaining and in fact is a protected right under various court rulings.  Remember this negotiation is about a salary cap--i.e., a limit on total player pay. Even having a cap is a huge concession on the part of the players--and one they've "given" the owners for many years now.  The reason the players agreed to a cap in the past, however, is because the calculation of the cap allowed them to share in future revenue growth.  From what I've seen of the NFL's proposals (and the information released is admittedly quite sketchy and highly selective), the NFL is trying to cut players out of a large portion of future revenue growth. If I were a player I'd be very reluctant to sign an agreement that limited my salary and didn't give me much upside potential to share in future revenue growth. This sounds like a bad deal to me.  I can't blame the players for being reluctant to go along with it.  And if the owners are going to try to turn the CBA into an agreement that primarily limits player pay, I certainly don't blame the players for giving up altogether on a CBA in favor of free and unrestricted negotiation between players and teams. 

     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    Pro - Characterize me as ridiculous if need be, but I've yet to see anything where the players have "given in" to any of the owners requests that didn't also serve the unions own self-interest.  Thus in no way can any accepted new procedure or rule be considered a give when it also satisfies the union's desires.    

    And I've said that I don't begrudge the players obstinance.  It's why we are at the current impasse.  I have explained my reasons for feeling the way I do.  IMO the best outcome of these labor negotiations for the fans and the health of the league is for the owners to get back some of what they feel they need in order to best operate their teams.  They are their teams, and private ownership has its privledges in this country.  

    Further I am not sure how the owners offer significantly pared back revenues for the players.  While I have seen D Smith's comments on the last offer, he didn't refute the owners contention that the deal would increase salary and benefits to the players by 2 billion over the next 4 years beyond what was paid in the last 4. 

    Ultimately, the players may want to be careful about what they want.  If they think their plight is so bad, and if this fully goes their way and eliminates league structures, the top5-10% of players will benenfit handsomely, the rest will comparatively feel like peasants.  Maybe then the NFLPA will institute its own revenue sharing agreement amongst its players.  HA. 
     
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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]Just checking: Has any pro-union person proposed a new "non draft" system yet?  I see the the title of this thread and I am waiting for someone to come up with an idea as to how a new version of a "non draft" process can be accomplished. Thanks.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it's called rookie free agency and it's already the way about 50% of the NFL rookies are hired every year.
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    Russ - I haven't seen Pro argue on behalf of the good of the game.  He is only focused on what's good for the players.

    His idea might result in greater benefits for 5-10% of the players, but not the rest.  There would be no salary floor.  Competitive balance would be skewed substantially to the large market teams producing Pro's european style league with a few haves and the rest have nots. 
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    Goodell's vision of the labor arrangement should the NFLPA ultimately win outright:

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/26/kesslers-vision-for-the-nfl-moves-one-step-closer/
     

    In addition to no draft, Goodell explains that, under the players’ vision of the NFL as crafted by lawyer Jeffrey Kessler, the league would be lacking various devices that have protected players for years.  There would be no minimum team payroll (i.e., salary floor).  There would be no minimum player salary.  There would be no standard compensation for players who suffer serious injuries while practicing or playing.  The would be no league-wide benefit plans.  There would be no limits on free agency, with franchise “perpetually out of the playoffs” serving “essentially as farm teams for the elites.”  (It reminds me of my once-beloved Pirates.  If they had anyone in the past decade or so that an elite team actually wanted.)


    Also, each team would be permitted to determine its rules for training camp and offseason workouts, with no limits on duration or intensity of practices.  And without a league-wide program of drug testing, teams would be left to their own devices.  Some teams may choose not to test for marijuana.  Others may choose not to test for steroids.  (The end result likely would be a decision by Congress to impose Olympic-style testing on the sport, something neither the league nor the players want.)

     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    Aww . . . maybe poor little Roger should have thought more carefully about the consequences before taking a hard line in negotiation . . . .

    If Goodell crafted the league's negotiating strategy he may very well find himself out of a job. 

    It isn't the players who re-opened a working CBA, it was Goodell and his employers.  You can try to blame the players, but it wasn't the players who fired the first shot.
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]The players are delusional because the agents just want more commission.  They feed one another and here we are. Again, the fact the players thought they won the 2006 deal and didn't take care of their own (healtcare/pension plan) and didn't take care of the ridiclous uncapped rookie scale which hurt the veterans, sort of proves how shortsighted and greedy they are.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    What's interesting to me about this is reading those defending the players pointing out, as an indicator of good faith, that the "association" was willing to agree (in principle) to a rookie wage scale as a bargaining "concession."

    Oh . . .   you're willing to bargain away somebody else's money in order to get more for yourself?

    How very altruistic.




     
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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]Oh . . .   you're willing to bargain away somebody else's money in order to get more for yourself? How very altruistic.
    Posted by p-mike[/QUOTE]

    Ha . . .isn't this exactly what the owners were doing when they started down this whole path?  Bargaining away the player's money (both rookies and veterans) so they could have more for themselves!

     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    I love the stuff Management Maggots bring to this forum.  ....the NFLPA will destroy the draft........the Agents are setting the agenda for the NFLPA.......the fans will get screwed if the NFLPA wins.......   Don't believe it for a minute!
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]Aww . . . maybe poor little Roger should have thought more carefully about the consequences before taking a hard line in negotiation . . . . If Goodell crafted the league's negotiating strategy he may very well find himself out of a job.  It isn't the players who re-opened a working CBA, it was Goodell and his employers.  You can try to blame the players, but it wasn't the players who fired the first shot.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]
    Are you suggesting that he hasn't.  I'd be surprised if none of these successful owners or any of the league executives hadn't fully considered the consequences of their actions well in advance of Goodell's op-ed.  I'd imagine, his purpose for the column was to inform the general public what might result from a legal win by the players. 

    I'd be hard pressed to believe that either the league or the NFLPA didn't consider nearly all of the possible outcomes of the process both good and bad. 

    Again, I don't begrudge the players their desire to get as much as they can, but if they succeed, and the NFL looks very different than as fans have come to know it, the goose will be very different and no longer laying golden eggs for all.  
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : Ha . . .isn't this exactly what the owners were doing when they started down this whole path?  Bargaining away the player's money (both rookies and veterans) so they could have more for themselves!
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]
    Because, of course, the owners shouldn't earn anything, right?  I asked previously exactly how much the players think the owners should be allowed to earn, but you chose not to respond to that question.  Would you like to take a stab now?
     
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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : Because, of course, the owners shouldn't earn anything, right?  I asked previously exactly how much the players think the owners should be allowed to earn, but you chose not to respond to that question.  Would you like to take a stab now?
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    They can earn what ever they can earn (and they earn plenty as it is).  But that doesn't mean that the players have to agree to pay cuts to help them earn more.  You seem to think the players have some kind of obligation to back down or submit to the owners demands.  They don't.  They don't have to sign a collective agreement they don't like. In fact, they may not even have to sign a collective agreement at all.  That's the way the law works.  If you and the owners don't like it, go hire lobbyists and try to change the anti-trust laws.


     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from p-mike. Show p-mike's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : Ha . . .isn't this exactly what the owners were doing when they started down this whole path?  Bargaining away the player's money (both rookies and veterans) so they could have more for themselves!
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    Sure . . .   the exact same thing.

    Except that each of the owners had a vote in developing and implementing their strategy (whatever you  may think of the strategy itself), while the "association" is  brokering its "concession" on the backs of people who have no voice at the table. It's a niggling point, to be sure, but these people don't live in the same world as you or I -- although some of them will again, at some point -- so rather than take a side on an issue where neither side is "right," I just like to enjoy the irony.

    Cool




     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : Sorry that'cha got in the way jcour...In my heart of heart's, I too, am a moderate; And as I've stated on thread's here RE: this subject, I believe Players & Owners have varying degrees of fault, and coupled with some of their actions & attitudes, one cannot help to see both have been to blame...  Yet as always, when I read the sentiments of the righteous Right, in their attempts to bully people further down the social and financial landscape, behind fictionalized & ignorantly conjectured beliefs, ambiguous & cryptic double-talk that together both supports m#ronic lines of generalized deductions of untruths, based off of their specific hypothesises of total untruths.....well, It is then therefore, that rather than seeing these people like the Comic Page characters they are-Comical people saying comical things, I Instead, see them as some sort of Power Broker archetype: corruption, hypocrisy, ignorance, vanity...pretty much all in the name of greater forms of greed & power control.  I shouldn't...  But they're loud...Loud and ALWAYS "in the right" (according to their world view).  Which, in turn, always inevitably brings me down from sitting nicely on my moderate fence now on the side of completely militarized Left, So I can try to make them ShutTFU...  There just seems something fully wrong in their total devotion to power hierarchies, whether it be race, religion, money, wealth, and then far more often than not, a healthy number & degree of all these types of controls...oh, and just control, itself...  But it never works.  They only shut up for a minute, and I believe now they can at least respect both sides even just 1 degree better... But a minute later they're back up on the pulpit, and now (sigh) I'm getting arrested again, because I punched a moderate with my brass knuckles in the melee who was just tryin' to get a word in or even tryin' to breakup the fight, and they're STILL talking st#pid when I'm get hauled away...and I know when I make bail, I'm just gonna up and do it all over again until the end of time. 
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium[/QUOTE]


    A nice, young, clean-cut man from a small town approaches a rich man from the city and says:

    "I have an idea, sir. Our county just built a new high school football stadium that seats 20,000, so we could host the regional championships. My wife reports for the local paper, and she has interviewed Rush, Sarah, Sean, Glen and even Mr. O'Reilly himself!!! We could invite a couple of these dignitaries to come speak at our stadium, and gosh...we'll make a fortune! I'll do ALL the promotion and operations myself...all I need you to do, sir, is put up the money for the rent and to hire the speakers."

    Mr. City Man mulls over Mr. Town Man's idea. At $50 bucks a pop, the event could bring in a cool $1 million, with a profit potential of 50% or more. He tells Mr. Town Man:

    "Those names you speak of are high priced talent, son...but I'll make a deal with you. If you can hire three of them for under a quarter million, I'll give you 10% of the profits on the night of the event."

     Mr. Town Man is downright giddy over the opportunity before him, but the event proves more work than he expected; it takes four solid months to pull it off. But when the day finally comes, the stadium is sold out and rocking! Obama and his minions have been carved to pieces.

    As the crowd departs, Mr. City Man approaches Mr. Town Man with a beaming smile and an envelope in hand. "Congratulations, son," he says. "The show was a fabulous success!"

    "Thank you, sir," Mr. Town Man replies with pride. He takes the envelope from Mr. City Man's hand and opens it with great anticipation. To his surprise, there is a check for $10,000. Puzzled, he looks up at Mr. City Man and says, "Sir, I thought we agreed that I would get 10% of the profits?"

    "We did," Mr. City Man says, lighting a cigar. "The show made a $100,000 profit...that there is your share."

    My share. Mr. Town Man scratches his head in confusion. In his mind he quickly tallies the rent, the talent, the radio ads and flyers, the security...all in, he can only fathom $375,000 in expenses. But the show sold out, with prime tickets as high as 500 bucks. The take had to be $1.25 million or more.

    "If you don't mind, sir, I'd like to review the books," Mr. Town Man says.

    Mr. City Man puts a hand on Mr. Town Man's shoulder and replies, "Now, son, you're acting like one of them ultra-liberals who expects to get fat off of other people's investment. You don't want that reputation, do you, now?"

    "No," Mr. Town Man says. "But it's just that...well, I just feel like..."

    "Aw, come out and say it son," Mr. City Man urges.

    "Okay,sir. I feel like I got screwed."

    "You did," Mr. City Man says without a hint of remorse. "But, I'll let you on a little secret, okay, son?"

    "Uh, sure."

    Mr. City Man leans close and whispers into Mr. Town Man's ear. "It's called the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes the rules. Now, you go put that check of yours in the bank, and do thirty more shows as my 10% partner. After that, when you have your own money, you'll be able to screw your minority partners!"

    The light switched on in Mr. Town Man's head: he had been shown the path to wealth in America! But the faint smile on his face slowly dissolved. "There's just one problem," he said to Mr. City Man.

    "What's that, son?"

    "I can't put this money in the bank. I have a two-year-old son, my wife's pregnant with twins, and we're behind on the mortgage. There's gasoline, formula, diapers...I need to use this money."

    Mr. City Man looked into the young man's eyes with empathy and sincerity. "Yeah," he said, "life sure is a big ol' biyitch sometimes." As he turned and walked away, he shouted back over his shoulder, "Nice work, son." 

     




     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : They can earn what ever they can earn (and they earn plenty as it is).  But that doesn't mean that the players have to agree to pay cuts to help them earn more.  You seem to think the players have some kind of obligation to back down or submit to the owners demands.  They don't.  They don't have to sign a collective agreement they don't like. In fact, they may not even have to sign a collective agreement at all.  That's the way the law works.  If you and the owners don't like it, go hire lobbyists and try to change the anti-trust laws.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]
    You keep attacking me as if I think players don't have rights or a legal system to uphold them.  I've never said that.  What I've said is that I don't see the players taking positions beyond their self interest.  So be it.  

    What I care about is what the league becomes and how much more expensive it may be if the players get everything they want.  IMO, that result is less attractive than the players finding it within themselves to help the owners a bit. 

    As it appears now, the owners don't want to change anything but revenue's a little.  Players don't want to change anything at all, but if anything is changed then they prefer to change everything. 
     
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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]Pro - Characterize me as ridiculous if need be, but I've yet to see anything where the players have "given in" to any of the owners requests that didn't also serve the unions own self-interest.  Thus in no way can any accepted new procedure or rule be considered a give when it also satisfies the union's desires.  [/QUOTE]

    Do you think the owners ignore their self interest in any of the proposals they make? If you do, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you . . .   Sorry, but your view is either completely biased and one-sided or absurdly naive.  Both parties are negotiating in their self interest.  

    [QUOTE] Further I am not sure how the owners offer significantly pared back revenues for the players.  While I have seen D Smith's comments on the last offer, he didn't refute the owners contention that the deal would increase salary and benefits to the players by 2 billion over the next 4 years beyond what was paid in the last 4. [/QUOTE]
     
    No one has seen the full details of the offer but from the little the NFL published about it, it strikes me that the arrangement would have allowed for roughly a 3.5% increase in the salary cap per year over the next four years.  After that, it was unclear whether there'd be any increase at all. Right now the salary cap grows at roughly the same pace as revenues.  I believe revenues are growing at well above 3.5% per year. . . .

     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    Totally agree both sides negotiate in their self interest, but it feels like the players have been on the right side of the concessions for quite sometime.  For the good of the game and the fans, I'd think they'd be interested in helping the owners a little more this time.  Wouldn't you hate to see the NFL turn out like GM?

    As for the offer the owners made, if it was, in fact, the worst deal in the history of sports, you'd think Smith might be interested in sharing that with the public, but he didn't.  Oh well.  I guess we will have to rely on what the league provided.  Don't forget that with the increases that the players get over the next 4 years (not much of a paring as I see it), the vet players will also get more money because the rooks will get less, which is what the players want.  Win win for the players as I see it. 
     
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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : You keep attacking me as if I think players don't have rights or a legal system to uphold them.  I've never said that.  What I've said is that I don't see the players taking positions beyond their self interest.  So be it.   What I care about is what the league becomes and how much more expensive it may be if the players get everything they want.  IMO, that result is less attractive than the players finding it within themselves to help the owners a bit.  As it appears now, the owners don't want to change anything but revenue's a little.  Players don't want to change anything at all, but if anything is changed then they prefer to change everything. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    You say the owners don't want to change anything but "revenue a little."  From what I've seen, they want to change revenue a lot. Granted none of us has full details, but why are you granting the owners benefit of the doubt while saying the players are only out for their crass self-interest?  It seems like bias to me.  It certainly isn't based on any real facts.  I know, because the facts of the various offers aren't available for any of us.  All we do know is that the owners decided to opt out of an agreement they signed and ask for revenue concessions from the players.  The players have made it clear that they are willing to continue under the 2006 agreement. They've asked for nothing more than what they have now.  The owners have asked them to take less (and have been adament about not sharing full financial date to justify their request). How we conclude from this that the owners are acting altruistically and the players acting greedily is beyond me.  It seems to me to be exactly the opposite.


     
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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    [QUOTE]Totally agree both sides negotiate in their self interest, but it feels like the players have been on the right side of the concessions for quite sometime.  For the good of the game and the fans, I'd think they'd be interested in helping the owners a little more this time.  Wouldn't you hate to see the NFL turn out like GM? As for the offer the owners made, if it was, in fact, the worst deal in the history of sports, you'd think Smith might be interested in sharing that with the public, but he didn't.  Oh well.  I guess we will have to rely on what the league provided.  Don't forget that with the increases that the players get over the next 4 years (not much of a paring as I see it), the vet players will also get more money because the rooks will get less, which is what the players want.  Win win for the players as I see it. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]


    Maybe Smith just thinks it's bad form to release details of his negotiating partner's offer to the public? 
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    ""Mr. City Man leans close and whispers into Mr. Town Man's ear. "It's called the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes the rules. Now, you go put that check of yours in the bank, and do thirty more shows as my 10% partner. After that, when you have your own money, you'll be able to screw your minority partners!"
    I can't put this money in the bank. I have a two-year-old son, my wife's pregnant with twins, and we're behind on the mortgage. There's gasoline, formula, diapers...I need to use this money."
    Mr. City Man looked into the young man's eyes with empathy and sincerity. "Yeah," he said, "life sure is a big ol' biyitch sometimes." As he turned and walked away, he shouted back over his shoulder, "Nice work, son."" 

    Yea, that's ahh- realistic.  You forgot to add the part where Mr. Town-Man's  two-year old son is named "Cr#ck-addicted child," his wife's named "Shakira", and his 2 unborn twins have been given the names of "Envy" and "Sloth", as apparently everyone from the upper-crust right (You) believe everyone in the middle class & lower class left, have been granted ample opportunity to rise to the loftiest halls of wealth and power...if, in fact, they didn't always scr#w it up themselves.  At the end, maybe ya can add a tidbit where everyone you told it to in the gentleman's lounge at the country club on wednesday at 1 in the afternoon, laugh knowingly, before walking out without tipping the bartender.
     
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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    ""Mr. City Man leans close and whispers into Mr. Town Man's ear. "It's called the Golden Rule; he who has the gold makes the rules. Now, you go put that check of yours in the bank, and do thirty more shows as my 10% partner. After that, when you have your own money , you'll be able to screw your minority partners!" I can't put this money in the bank. I have a two-year-old son, my wife's pregnant with twins, and we're behind on the mortgage. There's gasoline, formula, diapers...I need to use this money." Mr. City Man looked into the young man's eyes with empathy and sincerity. "Yeah," he said, "life sure is a big ol' biyitch sometimes." As he turned and walked away, he shouted back over his shoulder, "Nice work, son.""  Yea, that's ahh- realistic.  You forgot to add the part where Mr. Town-Man's  two-year old son is named "Cr#ck-addicted child," his wife's named "Shakira", and his 2 unborn twins have been given the names of "Envy" and "Sloth", as apparently everyone from the upper-crust right (You) believe everyone in the middle class & lower class left, have been granted ample opportunity to rise to the loftiest halls of wealth and power...if, in fact, they didn't always scr#w it up themselves.  At the end, maybe ya can add a tidbit where everyone you told it to in the gentleman's lounge at the country club on wednesday at 1 in the afternoon, laugh knowingly, before walking out without tipping the bartender.
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium


    Um...Laz...don't know where on earth you possibly got that idea. I'm about as left as it gets, and proud of it! In fact, Obama is WAAAY too centrist for me.
     

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