NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

         Yet more legal manueverings. Makes me sick. Hopefully, the 8th Circuit will uphold the owners' right to lockout the players. Maybe then, and only then, both sides will get back to the bargaining table: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/08/rumors-fly-of-a-complete-nfl-shutdown/
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    The players will be crying for mamma when all is said and done.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    The players will be crying for mamma when all is said and done.
    Posted by BabeParilli


         That remains to be seen. Remember, it's not the players calling the shots for the NFLPA. It's the agents. Assuming that the owners are successful with the 8th circuit court of appeals, they should be careful not to over-play their hand.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft :      That remains to be seen. Remember, it's not the players calling the shots for the NFLPA. It's the agents. Assuming that the owners are successful with the 8th circuit court of appeals, they should be careful not to over-play their hand.  
    Posted by TexasPat3



    The agents aren't "calling the shots."  This is just your uninformed opinion.  Do you know who Ted Olson is, what he did before he began representing the players, or (sadly) what happened to his wife on 9/11? If you want to know who's really calling the shots right now, look to Olson and his colleagues on the players' legal team. 

    (Olson, by the way, was George Bush's lawyer who argued for Bush in Bush v. Gore--i.e., hanging chads--before the Supreme Court . . . and won; interestingly, the owners are represented by Gore's lawyer in the same case, David Boies.  Go figure that one . . .)

     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    I don't know.  I am willing to agree that the agents have a pretty strong hand in this mess even moreso than the players. How many players do you think are taking the time to understand the important legal minutae and nuance involved in these negotiations?   

    But the agents, this kind of thing fits right in their wheel house.  I wouldn't be surprised if the agents didn't have an association of their own to develop their own talking points to deliver to the players. 

    Of course, I have no proof of this.  Its all speculation, like anyone elses who thinks they know who's calling the shots for either side. 

    Oh - and the Boies/Olson thing is pretty funny.  These guys can't be separated. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SilverSun. Show SilverSun's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    The players will learn the answer to the question "Who's your Daddy?" real soon now.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : The agents aren't "calling the shots."  This is just your uninformed opinion.  Do you know who Ted Olson is, what he did before he began representing the players, or (sadly) what happened to his wife on 9/11? If you want to know who's really calling the shots right now, look to Olson and his colleagues on the players' legal team.  (Olson, by the way, was George Bush's lawyer who argued for Bush in Bush v. Gore--i.e., hanging chads--before the Supreme Court . . . and won; interestingly, the owners are represented by Gore's lawyer in the same case, David Boies.  Go figure that one . . .)  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


         It is you, sir, who are uninformed, and naive...if you don't think that the player agents are the driving force behind the NFLPA's agenda. Who are the players getting advised by, their Moms??  
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft :      It is you, sir, who are uninformed, and naive...if you don't think that the player agents are the driving force behind the NFLPA's agenda. Who are the players getting advised by, their Moms??  
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Ummm . . . how 'bout by the world class legal team they've hired?  It maybe suits your worldview to say the agents are behind all of this, but it just ain't true . . .


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    I don't know.  I am willing to agree that the agents have a pretty strong hand in this mess even moreso than the players. How many players do you think are taking the time to understand the important legal minutae and nuance involved in these negotiations?    But the agents, this kind of thing fits right in their wheel house.  I wouldn't be surprised if the agents didn't have an association of their own to develop their own talking points to deliver to the players.  Of course, I have no proof of this.  Its all speculation, like anyone elses who thinks they know who's calling the shots for either side.  Oh - and the Boies/Olson thing is pretty funny.  These guys can't be separated. 
    Posted by UD6

    You're speculating about agents . . . but believe me, I doubt they influenced Smith very much (his motives would at times conflict with theirs) and I really doubt they have any influence at all on the world class legal team the players (in the Brady suit) have assembled.  The idea that agents are telling guys like Olson what to do is just laughable . . .

    And I agree, the Boies-Olson thing is quite funny.  Funny too how, by their involvement, a sports labor dispute appears to rise to the same importance as an election for President . . . 



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : Ummm . . . how 'bout by the world class legal team they've hired?  It maybe suits your worldview to say the agents are behind all of this, but it just ain't true . . .
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


         Again, you are being naive. The team of "world class lawyers" advocates the NFLPA's positions/agenda in court, makes recommendations to the NFLPA about how to proceed, and gives estimates to the Association of their chances of success. But, make no mistake about it...the NFLPA's agenda, has been set by the agents.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft :      Again, you are being naive. The team of "world class lawyers" represents the NFLPA's positions in court, makes recommendations to the NFLPA about how to proceed, and gives estimates to the Association of their chances of success. But, make no mistake about it...the NFLPA's agenda has been set by the agents.  
    Posted by TexasPat3



    Then show us some proof rather than just making assertions backed by nothing.

    And also, what do you mean when you say agents are "setting the agenda"? Are you saying that the union would have accepted the owners' demands and signed the CBA if it weren't for agents telling Smith that he shouldn't?  That seems absurd to me.  The union and players had their own motives for not accepting the owners' offers. Are you saying the decertification strategy (which Smith had been preparing for many months) was done at the bequest of agents?  Are you saying that the claims in the Brady lawsuit were laid out by the agents and the trade association and the players' lawyers were just doing the agents' bidding? Are you saying that the agents are now telling the players' lawyers what to do as they prepare to argue before the Appeals Court?  Are you saying the players would have broken with the union (and now trade association) if it weren't for their agents telling them to stick with Smith?  What specifically do you mean? And what proof do you have of whatever it is you are claiming?  I think it's fairly obvious that the players and the union/trade association have good reasons for doing what they're doing regardless of agents. At times, agents' interests and player/union/trade association interests do converge, but that doesn't mean the agents are driving the agenda. The players and union/trade association have their own interests which would lead them to do what they are doing even if agents didn't exist.  



     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : Then show us some proof rather than just making assertions backed by nothing. And also, what do you mean when you say agents are "setting the agenda"? Are you saying that the union would have accepted the owners' demands and signed the CBA if it weren't for agents telling Smith that he shouldn't?  That seems absurd to me.  The union and players had their own motives for not accepting the owners' offers. Are you saying the decertification strategy (which Smith had been preparing for many months) was done at the bequest of agents?  Are you saying that the claims in the Brady lawsuit were laid out by the agents and the trade association and the players' lawyers were just doing the agents' bidding? Are you saying that the agents are now telling the players' lawyers what to do as they prepare to argue before the Appeals Court?  Are you saying the players would have broken with the union (and now trade association) if it weren't for their agents telling them to stick with Smith?  What specifically do you mean? And what proof do you have of whatever it is you are claiming?  I think it's fairly obvious that the players and the union/trade association have good reasons for doing what they're doing regardless of agents. At times, agents' interests and player/union/trade association interests do converge, but that doesn't mean the agents are driving the agenda. The players and union/trade association have their own interests which would lead them to do what they are doing even if agents didn't exist.  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


         Again, stop being so naive. An agent is hired by a player to inform him of his worth on the open market...and to get it through negotiation. The great majority of the agents are lawyers themselves. They have been directing the players' association for years as to what the players should be earning...what rights they should have, regarding free agency, drug testing, and disciplinary matters. It is they...guys like Tom Condon, who have set the agenda as to what the players want.

         It's the job of the "world class lawyers" to advise, to advocate the agenda of their clients in court, and to do whatever legal manuevering they can (decertification, for example) to push the agenda through. But, the so-called "world class lawyers" have not set the agenda. Lawyers never "set the agenda". Their clients do.     
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    Pro - Patty's right.  This entire dispute is about money. 

    The one thing every player wants (besides playing time which is under the control of the coach) is more money/the best deal.  They depend on their agents to get that for them.  The agents are put in a very powerful position through this arrangement. 

    The one thing an agent wants is more money for themselves through their clients.  They depend on the structure of the CBA to dictate how they accomplish that. 

    There are 1700 active players in the league and only 32 team player reps.  When the players start struggling financially through this mess, they are not going to their player reps for help.  They are going to their agents.  It would be very shortsighted to think the agents aren't playing a very big role on the players' side. 
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft :      Again, stop being so naive. An agent is hired by a player to inform him of his worth on the open market...and to get it through negotiation. The great majority of the agents are lawyers themselves. They have been directing the players' association for years as to what the players should be earning...what rights they should have, regarding free agency, drug testing, and disciplinary matters. It is they...guys like Tom Condon, who have set the agenda as to what the players want .      It's the job of the "world class lawyers" to advise, to advocate the agenda of their clients in court, and to do whatever legal manuevering they can (decertification, for example) to push the agenda through. But, the so-called "world class lawyers" have not set the agenda. Lawyers never "set the agenda". Their clients do.     
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Yeah, everyone knows players hire agents to help them gauge the market and get a good deal.  That's kind of what agents do--and I guess the players would be dumb to hire them if they did something else.

    But you assert that agents have been "directing the player's association for years" without saying exactly how they've been doing that or offering any proof at all for your assertion. Since you throw out a name--Tom Condon--why don't you tell us exactly what he's been doing "for years" to direct D. Smith and the other leaders of the NFLPA?  Again, please provide a specific example. And please don't just say that agents try to get the most money for players. That's not the same thing as directing the NFLPA or setting its agenda.  That's just agents doing their jobs.


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:

    Pro - Patty's right.  This entire dispute is about money.  The one thing every player wants (besides playing time which is under the control of the coach) is more money/the best deal.  They depend on their agents to get that for them.  The agents are put in a very powerful position through this arrangement.  The one thing an agent wants is more money for themselves through their clients.  They depend on the structure of the CBA to dictate how they accomplish that.  There are 1700 active players in the league and only 32 team player reps.  When the players start struggling financially through this mess, they are not going to their player reps for help.  They are going to their agents.  It would be very shortsighted to think the agents aren't playing a very big role on the players' side. 
    Posted by UD6


    Yeah the dispute is about money.  But that's not what TexPat's saying.  He's claiming that the agents are driving the whole agenda of the NFLPA.  I just don't see any evidence for that. Sure interests converge--players, agents, and the NFLPA all want the most money. But as far as I know, agents aren't running the NFLPA.  And Patty hasn't provided a single example.


    Here's what's really going on here.  Agents are considered "bad."  So Tex is trying to say the bad guys are driving the show.  And that's supposed to get us all upset and say "oh what a shame the players are being led around by their noses by those greedy slimy agents."  But that's maybe not what's happening. Maybe the players themselves want more money (or more accurately want to avoid the future pay cut that the owners want to impose on them).  In that case, the players (ultimately) would be driving the agenda. In fact, I think the players are driving the agenda.  They may not know all the details--they hire agents and lawyers to help them, just like the owners hire consultants and lawyers--but ultimately, the players interest is to get the best deal for themselves--and that, more than anything, is what's driving the player's side of the dispute.  (The owners, by the way, are motivated by pretty much the same thing--getting the best deal for themselves.)

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    And I believe that generally Patty is right.  It's my opinion that a good majority of the players don't know and really don't care about this thing except as it relates to how much money they are going to get in their next contract.   

    As you've noted the interests of players and agents converge in this matter.  I am sure there agents whose only business is representing NFL players.  For them, like the players,their entire livlihood is contingent on the results of this negotiation. 

    As the players' mouthpieces and advisors, you simply cannot divorce the agents significant interests in and influence over this process.  
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft :      That remains to be seen. Remember, it's not the players calling the shots for the NFLPA. It's the agents. Assuming that the owners are successful with the 8th circuit court of appeals, they should be careful not to over-play their hand.  
    Posted by TexasPat3


    That's my prediction. Given normal labor interaction, my statement is in the bag. But with commie judges infesting the land, there is a chance they will bail the players out.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    And I believe that generally Patty is right.  It's my opinion that a good majority of the players don't know and really don't care about this thing except as it relates to how much money they are going to get in their next contract.    As you've noted the interests of players and agents converge in this matter.  I am sure there agents whose only business is representing NFL players.  For them, like the players,their entire livlihood is contingent on the results of this negotiation.  As the players' mouthpieces and advisors, you simply cannot divorce the agents significant interests in and influence over this process.  
    Posted by UD6


    The players screw themselves. The top feeders make out like bandits and the rank and file are penniless cripples after they hang them up. A real union has some equity among the membership.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from kildog. Show kildog's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    The only way olson wins this is if the same biased, conservative justices who served on the Supreme Court sit on this case.  He only wins if it goes to the US Supreme Court where the majority hate anybody who actually works for a living.
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    The only way olson wins this is if the same biased, conservative justices who served on the Supreme Court sit on this case.  He only wins if it goes to the US Supreme Court where the majority hate anybody who actually works for a living.
    Posted by kildog


    You consider playing in the NFL working for a living? If so, you probably think being a porn star is akin to working in a salt mine.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    The NFLPA already agreed to slash rookie wages. The agents must have loved that one.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

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    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    And I believe that generally Patty is right.  It's my opinion that a good majority of the players don't know and really don't care about this thing except as it relates to how much money they are going to get in their next contract.      Posted by UD6


    Yes.  But they very much do care what they are going to get in their next contract. Which is why they don't want to accept slower future growth in the salary cap. This dispute is 80% about the salary cap.  And that issue is just as important to the players whether agents are involved or not.
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft : Yes.  But they very much do care what they are going to get in their next contract. Which is why they don't want to accept slower future growth in the salary cap. This dispute is 80% about the salary cap.  And that issue is just as important to the players whether agents are involved or not.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid

    Yes, they care about their next contract, but I am willing to bet that many of them don't really think that the CBA deeply affects a majority of them significantly.  

    I am sure they don't expect the league minimums to be dropped substantially, if at all which is where many players reside.  It affects the top earners, mainly. 

    Further, I'd imagine that those 400 or so FA's and recently drafted rookies would rather get a deal done and get back on the payroll.  Its their agents as well as their union (er, assn) that are advising them to sit tight. 

    Its naive to think the NFLPA isn't taking advice from the players' attorney agents who negotiate deals every day and know better than the union (er, assn) their players' needs and wants including things like drug testing.
     
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    Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft

    In Response to Re: NFLPA Wants To Eliminate the Draft:
    The NFLPA already agreed to slash rookie wages. The agents must have loved that one.
    Posted by zbellino


    If the revenue split holds, we all know that that money will be redistributed to the vets.  The agents lose nothing in that scenario.
     
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