No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    I think this is  a classic example of the chicken vs. egg scenario. At times, you have to throw to a guy like Moss - even if he is NOT open - just to keep the defense honest. Otherwise, guys like Welker, Tate, Edelman, Hernandez, and Gronk have no room to run. Secondly, Moss demands double coverage - which means the WR corp has a chance for 1:1 coverage - to get open.

    Guess who's gonna get double teamed now? Welker.  With two guys honing in on Welker - he's gonna get fewer catches, get open less, AND will likely get pummeled more often (which will shorten his career)

    It'll be interesting to see if Hernandez is now used as the #1 WR going deep. Tate#2 going over the middle, Welker in the slot, and Gronk as the 4th...especially on 3rd down situations needing another WR or for 3rd and short for run plays.

    At least the loss of Moss gives us something to talk about Laughing
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]I think this is  a classic example of the chicken vs. egg scenario. At times, you have to throw to a guy like Moss - even if he is NOT open - just to keep the defense honest. Otherwise, guys like Welker, Tate, Edelman, Hernandez, and Gronk have no room to run. Secondly, Moss demands double coverage - which means the WR corp has a chance for 1:1 coverage - to get open. Guess who's gonna get double teamed now? Welker.  With two guys honing in on Welker - he's gonna get fewer catches, get open less, AND will likely get pummeled more often (which will shorten his career) It'll be interesting to see if Hernandez is now used as the #1 WR going deep. Tate#2 going over the middle, Welker in the slot, and Gronk as the 4th...especially on 3rd down situations needing another WR or for 3rd and short for run plays. At least the loss of Moss gives us something to talk about
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii[/QUOTE]

    Here's a different way to look at it. Will they double Welker, most likely, but that will open a lane for Tate. With Tate's speed leaving him 1v1 will be dangerous. I think teams will be forced to role coverage from Welker to Tate during the game. Because of Edelman and Hernandez you won't be able to double up both Welker and Tate. There is no way a LB can cover Hernandez or Edelman.

    Tate is not the deep threat Moss was but he's got great speed and good hands that should make some big plays if left 1v1. Also, one advantage Tate has that Moss seemed uninterested in is that he's willing to cut in the middle. If Welker draws in the S then Tate can cut inside and with Brady's accuracy they will dominate the 15-25yrd middle lane.

    As far as 3rd down, did you overlook Woodhead? I know it's easy but lower your head a bit. He might not be Faulk but he does have good hands and is very shifty on draw plays. I think we'll be fine.

    I would argue our current core is just as good if not better then the 03 and 04 WR core. Welker = Branch, Edelman = Brown, Gronk = Fauria, Tate = Patten, Hernandez is just a cherry on top. They will find ways to get open and Brady will find the open man. Get ready to see 6-7 names on the reception chart again.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1024us. Show m1024us's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed? : Here's a different way to look at it. Will they double Welker, most likely, but that will open a lane for Tate. With Tate's speed leaving him 1v1 will be dangerous. I think teams will be forced to role coverage from Welker to Tate during the game. Because of Edelman and Hernandez you won't be able to double up both Welker and Tate. There is no way a LB can cover Hernandez or Edelman. Tate is not the deep threat Moss was but he's got great speed and good hands that should make some big plays if left 1v1. Also, one advantage Tate has that Moss seemed uninterested in is that he's willing to cut in the middle. If Welker draws in the S then Tate can cut inside and with Brady's accuracy they will dominate the 15-25yrd middle lane. As far as 3rd down, did you overlook Woodhead? I know it's easy but lower your head a bit. He might not be Faulk but he does have good hands and is very shifty on draw plays. I think we'll be fine. I would argue our current core is just as good if not better then the 03 and 04 WR core. Welker = Branch, Edelman = Brown, Gronk = Fauria, Tate = Patten, Hernandez is just a cherry on top. They will find ways to get open and Brady will find the open man. Get ready to see 6-7 names on the reception chart again.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Excellent take.....
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Evil2010. Show Evil2010's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]I think this is  a classic example of the chicken vs. egg scenario. At times, you have to throw to a guy like Moss - even if he is NOT open - just to keep the defense honest. Otherwise, guys like Welker, Tate, Edelman, Hernandez, and Gronk have no room to run. Secondly, Moss demands double coverage - which means the WR corp has a chance for 1:1 coverage - to get open. Guess who's gonna get double teamed now? Welker.  With two guys honing in on Welker - he's gonna get fewer catches, get open less, AND will likely get pummeled more often (which will shorten his career) It'll be interesting to see if Hernandez is now used as the #1 WR going deep. Tate#2 going over the middle, Welker in the slot, and Gronk as the 4th...especially on 3rd down situations needing another WR or for 3rd and short for run plays. At least the loss of Moss gives us something to talk about
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii[/QUOTE] 

    Defenses will now try to double Welker. At least until they get burned by someone else. Keep in mind though that it's a lot harder to double a receiver who's slanting through the crowded middle than one who's running all alone way up field. We saw a little of that last Monday when the offense packed three close together on the right side to confuse the defense's coverage assignments. I'm expecting to see more of that stuff from now on.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1024us. Show m1024us's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed? :   Defenses will now try to double Welker. At least until they get burned by someone else. Keep in mind though that it's a lot harder to double a receiver who's slanting through the crowded middle than one who's running all alone way up field. We saw a little of that last Monday when the offense packed three close together on the right side to confuse the defense's coverage assignments. I'm expecting to see more of that stuff from now on.
    Posted by Evil2010[/QUOTE]

    We are going to see more of the TE's and the dink and dunk.....with a not as productive backs....we will need to control the clock through the air.

    What I love about the Moss trade was that there is now no more temptation to go deep and kill the drive....3rd and 2....deep throw....missed it.  4th down.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    I think part of what made BB pull the trigger on this deal is that teams are increasingly single-covering Moss and doubling Welker.  That's exactly what the Jets were doing in the second half of that game.  The problem was, Moss was struggling to make catches even when he was single covered. The Cromartie interception is a great example of why Moss (as much as I love the guy) was no longer effective creating openings for the underneath receivers.  On that play, Welker and Moss were lined up in a stack formation on the right side. Welker runs an intermediate route to the middle of the field and Moss goes straight down the sideline.  They are both covered man-to-man and there's a safety over the top.  The safety breaks toward Welker, leaving Moss and Cromartie on an island. Brady sees this and throws to Moss.  At the time Brady starts his throw, Moss and Cormartie are side-by-side.  You'd think Moss would win the contest. Brady thought that too. But Cromartie works Moss to the sideline and then pulls away so he's all alone to make the interception.  Increasingly, teams were willing to take the chance of going one-on-one with Moss--not just because they didn't think Moss would beat them, but also because they were pretty sure Brady would throw to him when he was single covered. It was almost as if they were setting the coverage to draw Brady into throwing to Moss.  A few years ago, this would have been suicide for a defense--but Moss just isn't that much of a threat anymore and the defenses have begun to realize this.  This isn't a criticism of Moss--as I said I love the guy and what he's done for the team--but he's an aging receiver and he doesn't get separation like he used to. He's no longer pulling the coverage away from Welker.  And if he doesn't reliably make catches in single coverage, he's just (as Parcells used to say) a JAG.  I think BB realized that and decided it was time to get something for Moss while he still could.  We can get someone else to play JAG deep threat. Or who knows, maybe Tate will start to become the guy defenses have to fear. 

    One thing, though, we do need two deep threats, so BB is going to have to fill that wideout position with Price, Slater, or someone else. We need someone who's at least a reasonable deep threat opposite Tate or our passing game will suffer.  


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from threejak. Show threejak's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    Fact of the matter may be too that with the wealth of talent at TE coupled with the usual suspects of Welker/Edelman in the slot and Woodhead lining up everywhere short of the porta johns this offense really may not have been seen yet in it's entirety.  Throw in the respect for  Tate's wheels along with a few catches and he'll draw some 2x coverage.  I for one am very anxious to see if the Pats offense isn't indeed more efficient without Mr. Wonderful.  It might take a little time to sort it out  but I am wholly encouraged.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]I think this is  a classic example of the chicken vs. egg scenario. At times, you have to throw to a guy like Moss - even if he is NOT open - just to keep the defense honest. Otherwise, guys like Welker, Tate, Edelman, Hernandez, and Gronk have no room to run. Secondly, Moss demands double coverage - which means the WR corp has a chance for 1:1 coverage - to get open. Guess who's gonna get double teamed now? Welker.  With two guys honing in on Welker - he's gonna get fewer catches, get open less, AND will likely get pummeled more often (which will shorten his career) It'll be interesting to see if Hernandez is now used as the #1 WR going deep. Tate#2 going over the middle, Welker in the slot, and Gronk as the 4th...especially on 3rd down situations needing another WR or for 3rd and short for run plays. At least the loss of Moss gives us something to talk about
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii[/QUOTE]
    Welker is going to need a Cervelli type dome from here on out. By the time he's 40, he'll have a continuous stream of droll from his lip to the floor. Great move BB. Remember Ted Johnson? Just win baby and screw your players. The next guy can get to absorb those nasty hits. Here's an oxymoron for you: BB is a genius moron. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from WeisOffenseReturns. Show WeisOffenseReturns's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    No.

    Do not listen to people who have no clue.  They keep thinking BB will run a 2006 spread offense here/2007 Moss/Welker style offense.

    NEWSFLASH:  Forget the McDaniels spread offense as 70% of this team's offense.

    SECOND NEWFLASH:  Go back to 2001-2005 in your mind, expect with BETTER PERSONNEL.

    This is what we'll see.

    In other words: Welker will be Troy Brown, but obviously Welker is a little more dynamic than what Brown was, and I loved Troy Brown.

    I hope they double Welker, because someone will still be wide open.

    The TEs completely change things here. 


     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Evil2010. Show Evil2010's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    patsfan---My sentiments exactly.

    As for Wes getting 'slammed'....He's really good at knowing when he's going to get hit and if he's accomplished his goal of getting the 1st down he usually goes down to minimize the damage. Both him and the coaching staff know that the 2 or three extra yards after getting the 1st down are not worth getting knocked out of the game.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from WeisOffenseReturns. Show WeisOffenseReturns's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]Most people forget its not easy to Double a slot reciever, esp. one like Welker.  We were forced to double him in Miami after he killed us. He still had a decent game. Moss is easy to double if you keep him outside, and he usually likes to stay out there.  If Welker runs that juke route where he darts inside, stops on a dime and then cuts back outside, there is no defense for that...It would be coming from a a safety, most likely and they would try and diguises it, meaning the safety would have to cover a lot of ground and still account for Welker changing direction while the defense is coming up at full speed and you have whiff city.  If they do succesfully double him, then he is serving the same purpose as Moss, no? so then you let Edleman be Wes.  Tate got integrated last week.  Price showed promise in preseason and we know Hernandez is a big reciever who can hold his own and make plays....I think this strecthing the field by Randy is Waayyyyy overrated and exactly what I said yesterday was echoed by the guys on "Playbook" that if defenses dont wanna respect Tate or Price running down the field, Brady will burn them plain and simple...
    Posted by patsfan76[/QUOTE]

    I laughed when I heard Kerry Rhodes said "Welker's lanes just got smaller".

    Umm, no they didn't.

    You double Welker, and Hernandez and Edelman will ABUSE your Nickel/Dimeback or slower Safety.

    Part of the issue is, people who don't watch this team aren't aware how nasty Hernandez and Edelman can be trailing behind Welker in the middle of the field.

    I am not even convinced that 3 stack slot formation could be defended if they ran it 10 times in a row.



     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]No. Do not listen to people who have no clue.  They keep thinking BB will run a 2006 spread offense here/2007 Moss/Welker style offense. NEWSFLASH:  Forget the McDaniels spread offense as 70% of this team's offense. SECOND NEWFLASH:  Go back to 2001-2005 in your mind, expect with BETTER PERSONNEL. This is what we'll see. In other words: Welker will be Troy Brown, but obviously Welker is a little more dynamic than what Brown was, and I loved Troy Brown. I hope they double Welker, because someone will still be wide open. The TEs completely change things here. 
    Posted by WeisOffenseReturns[/QUOTE]

    Actually, quite a few of us were hoping BB was going back to "old school" 2 TE power formations shortly after drafting 2 TEs....
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed? : Actually, quite a few of us were hoping BB was going back to "old school" 2 TE power formations shortly after drafting 2 TEs....
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii[/QUOTE]


    I will bump my other thread, because guess what...THEY HAVE! Using it more then ant other team in the league. We have officially gone back to a power run 2 TE Play action passing team, with multiple speedy, shifty receivers who all have good hands. Hernandez will beat single coverage, as will WW as will Edelman(coming back from sore ankle) so will Gronk. Watch out for Tate deep, oh wait Alge Crumpler can also catch? E gads! Who do you commit to double team?

    Another thing, WES WELKER CANNOT BE DOUBLE COVERED. Even with his knee functioning somewhere less then 100%(maybe) I saw a breakdown on NFL Ntk that showed Wes start wide run a 1 yard crossing pattern towards the middle of the field at full speed, then slam on the breaks do a 180 and go back to the sideline for a 1st down. How on earth do you double a guy at the line of scrimmage. This is not a Moss gets shut down by a safety over the top thing. This would mean a defense has to commit 2 defenders at the line of scrimmage, in which case Brady would pick the rest of the field apart with 2 WW clones in Edelman and Woodhead.

    We have brought back the Famous 2 TE Set, last seen in the Daniel Graham era. We are running the ball up 4% of the time from the last 2years. Tom Brady is the best play action QB alive. Watch out NFL! The spread is dead in New England!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]I think this is  a classic example of the chicken vs. egg scenario. At times, you have to throw to a guy like Moss - even if he is NOT open - just to keep the defense honest. Otherwise, guys like Welker, Tate, Edelman, Hernandez, and Gronk have no room to run. Secondly, Moss demands double coverage - which means the WR corp has a chance for 1:1 coverage - to get open. Guess who's gonna get double teamed now? Welker.  With two guys honing in on Welker - he's gonna get fewer catches, get open less, AND will likely get pummeled more often (which will shorten his career) It'll be interesting to see if Hernandez is now used as the #1 WR going deep. Tate#2 going over the middle, Welker in the slot, and Gronk as the 4th...especially on 3rd down situations needing another WR or for 3rd and short for run plays. At least the loss of Moss gives us something to talk about
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii[/QUOTE]

    Have to agree this will hurt Welker, because he doesn't have the speed to stretch plays and does the work underneath. Coordinators will be all over this guy now, someone is going to really need to step up.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from NOISE. Show NOISE's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    Of course this will hurt Welker - unless they can grab VJAX.

    A year from now, Welker will be going through the same thing (CONTRACT) with the Pats - Mark my words, this is a TREND now with the Pats - Welker is next in line who will be looking for the payday - and won't get it here.  too bad too..
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 4Adam13. Show 4Adam13's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    They WILL double Welker. Make no mistake about it. They will try to bump him at the line and stick a second defender on him. We've seen it before in seasons past. When Welker is double or harrassed at the line, he has been rarely effective.

    Teams are not going to double Tate often or at all until Tate, and the Pats, prove that Tate is a legit #1 WR. I guarantee that right now, teams are saying "lets not let Welker beat us" and are not worried about Tate. That may very change if Tate proves himself, but as of right now, the only attention Tate is getting is on special teams.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from NOT2REGRET. Show NOT2REGRET's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    Im sorry , but trying to down this trade just makes you look foolish. Fact is that Moss has been are only real scoring threat the past 3 years. WW doesnt get in the end , and all I know is that everytime WW has been doubled hes done chit. Look at the Saints game last year and the second half of the jets game. Listen he's a very good player , but 90% of the time teams are all to happy giving up the middle so they wont get beat deep. And trying to down play how Randy changes D's is just plain dumb. I mean do watch the games , every time we take Randy off the field are O looks pathetic. You think the whole Randy stretching the field is overrated , do you realize just how dumb that sounds? Do you realize that hes caught 3 TDs himself and is responsible for at least 3 other that I can think of. And two of those were ones caught by Gronky/A.Hern. , both times Moss took two defenders w/ him across the end zone. And if you actually watched Playbook ( which is the best football show on TV ) then you would have seen Moss hold 2-3 defenders in the end-zone while Woodhead ran one in. And to whoever said that the Cromatie INT was Randys fault , you need to take another look. LOL Moss was almost out of bounds and 10-12 feet away. 12 just shouldnt have thrown that ball. This team is currently built to out score their opponent. We're going to have to put up 30 , maybe 35 to beat teams like Indy , Chargers , Balt , Vikes , Packers etc. Id even toss Pitt/Chi in there as well. Both are capable of putting up a high number any given Sunday. All of a sudden we have a team that has to beat other teams  20-17 , 23-20 etc. We dont and wont have the type D that can produce like that. For the life of me , I cant begin to understand how anyone thinks that this wont hurt Welker. I love WW as much as the next guy , but fact is he's just a piece of the puzzle. You can find WW on almost every team. Slot WRs are everywhere. How great would Hines Ward have been in our O w/ 12 throwing to him. How about T.J. , or Kevin Walter , Devone Bess ... or how about a healthy Edelman? You cant replace Moss or 1260/13 every year. I just scrolled up to find who was foolish enough to say that Moss stretching the field is overrated ... I thats almost as dumb as saying that Laura Maroney would have as good a year as All Day. Tony Dungy admited that Moss was a factor in him bringing back the T2. LOL Its not my opinion that hes stretches the field , lol thats not up for debate. Neither is the fact that when he does stretch the field it helps create space for guys like Welker/Hern/Gronky/Edelman. LOL I there no debate about that , Randy Moss get doubled as much and Im willing a little more than any other WR in history , this guys been doubled since high school. How do you overrate someone that always takes 2 defenders w/ him , one of them is ALWAYS the opposing teams best DB. Someone is going to walk Welker over to the jets lockeroom before the game and introduce him to Revis. LOL Because Welker has never seen him or any other top DB in his life. Im not sure teams will even double him? Teams were fine giving him anything he wanted underneath because he just doesnt put up 6. I think teams will focus on guys like Tate , Hern. , Gronk , guys that put up 6 or in Tate's case , guys that have the potential to. I think that would be the best way to defend us. Id put the best DB on WW and try keep Hern. in check w/ a DB and S. No team worries about keeping WW out of the end-zone.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]No. Do not listen to people who have no clue.  They keep thinking BB will run a 2006 spread offense here/2007 Moss/Welker style offense. NEWSFLASH:  Forget the McDaniels spread offense as 70% of this team's offense. SECOND NEWFLASH:  Go back to 2001-2005 in your mind, expect with BETTER PERSONNEL. This is what we'll see. In other words: Welker will be Troy Brown, but obviously Welker is a little more dynamic than what Brown was, and I loved Troy Brown. I hope they double Welker, because someone will still be wide open. The TEs completely change things here. 
    Posted by WeisOffenseReturns[/QUOTE]

    You keep saying that Russ but every game we still see the shotgun spread.  I suppose Miami was the last of the shotgun spread?  I don't see what people have against the shotgun spread.  It works.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    In Response to Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?:
    [QUOTE]They WILL double Welker. Make no mistake about it. They will try to bump him at the line and stick a second defender on him. We've seen it before in seasons past. When Welker is double or harrassed at the line, he has been rarely effective.

    Response: They will "try" and when have they ever been successful? WW has led the league in receiving over the past 3 years. I've never seen WW get shut down. Not once in any of the 3 seasons he has played for N.E

     Teams are not going to double Tate often or at all until Tate, and the Pats, prove that Tate is a legit #1 WR.

    Respons:GREAT! I don't think teams will double any of them. That is the goal of this offense. You no longer know where the ball is going.

     I guarantee that right now, teams are saying "lets not let Welker beat us" and are not worried about Tate. That may very change if Tate proves himself, but as of right now, the only attention Tate is getting is on special teams.
    Posted by 4Adam13[/QUOTE]

    Again this is perfect and I hope every DC in the league thinks as you do(although I doubt it).

    WW cannot be doubled and if you try and double him at the line of scrimmage then Brady will abuse the other single defenders.

    Have you ever seen an offense with a bunch of low center of gravity speedy guys who can all catch? I have they were Deon Branch,Troy Brown,David Patten and Kevin Faulk! They all won multiple SBs even before the rule changes making this a pass easy league. Believe it!


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    Don't see it happening, you think BB is gonna give up the deep threat to expand the field? No, have you heard of Brandon Tate
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from yulolo. Show yulolo's posts

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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1024us. Show m1024us's posts

    Re: No Moss, No Moss - Welker to get slammed?

    I hope the teams double Welker....that means that they will get burnt somewhere else......
     

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