NO WAY!!!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Norger. Show Norger's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Dogg, don't really care about who the writers say is the best, but I'll say this.  Brady won his first SB with Troy Brown, David Patten and Fred Coleman as his wideouts.  His tight end was Jermaine Wiggins.  Peyton has never done anything remotely comparable.  The only year Brady has had offensive talent comparable to Peyton was 2007, when the Pats came within one play of a perfect season.  The difference between that and what Peyton usually does in the post season is that Brady didn't p u k e on his shoes right out of the gate once the playoffs started.  You can deny it if you want, but Peyton generally underperforms (many would say chokes) in the playoffs.  Brady generally elevates his game when the stakes are the highest.  Peyton is a stat king, and if the writers want to crown him again and again, that's fine.  Personally, I can't stand him; P-Mike's pictures say it all.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    This truly is an argument which will never be conceded. Colts fans (and Patriots haters) will always claim Manning is the better of the two. They will use the stats as their reason. What it all comes down to is that they seem to be more satisfied by going 13-4 with a first round playoff loss than going say 14-5 with the five losses coming before New Year's. They seemingly value MVP awards and Pro Bowls above Lombardi Trophies! There must be a thousand posts here in the last few years clearly showing the disparity in postseason performance. Nothing we say (or post) will change their minds, much like none of their twisting of the stats will change ours. Both QBs are first ballot HOFers. The only thing which puzzles me is that they keep coming here to try and sell Manning as the "best". I do not go to Indystar and proclaim Brady to be the best. That would be a waste of my time. I suppose they have their trolls there, too, and some are probably Patriots fans (although I can imagine there are a lot of Chargers trolls there as well). There is therefore no "endgame" to this discussion. Though this thread will eventually die out, I'm sure there will be hundreds more before these two retire (and probably for years afterwards). For myself, I think it's time to move on. Training camp is right around the corner. The past is the past, so now it's time to see what this new season will bring. Hopefully it will be that fourth Lombardi for the trophy case in Foxboro!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Peyton Manning is teh biggest choke artist of his generation...I will take Brady over Manning any day of the week. 3 rings out of 4 superbowl games and Manning has onyl made it to one super bowl I think that stat alone makes Brady better. You can have you media #1 award i will take a super bowl title with Brady any day and as the stats suggest Brady has a much better chance at bringing us to the big game then Manning does with his team.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Tas - if brady was the only player on the team or one of 5 starters like basketball as opposed to just one (albeit the biggest one) of 24 when you include the kicker and punter,  then I'd agree that the superbowl stat by itself would be enough to without question confirm that Brady is better than manning. 

    But if you did that you'd devalue the excellence of some of your players like Bruschi, Vrabel, Wilfork, Seymour, McGinest, Law, Harrison, Samuel, etc., and I think most pats fans think pretty highly of guys like this.  

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dead54. Show Dead54's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Tas - if brady was the only player on the team or one of 5 starters like basketball as opposed to just one (albeit the biggest one) of 24 when you include the kicker and punter,  then I'd agree that the superbowl stat by itself would be enough to without question confirm that Brady is better than manning.  But if you did that you'd devalue the excellence of some of your players like Bruschi, Vrabel, Wilfork, Seymour, McGinest, Law, Harrison, Samuel, etc., and I think most pats fans think pretty highly of guys like this.  
    Posted by underdogg


    That's very true, but if you want to talk about players being devalued... When referring to Manning and his individual numbers, you have to devalue Marvin Harrison (Who, in my opinion should go to the HOF), Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokely, Dallas Clark (I'd rather have him than Antonio Gates as a catching only tight end), the O-line, Edgerrin James, and Dungy. It works both ways.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Belenus555. Show Belenus555's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    The eternal argument: superstar w/stats vs. superstar w/championships!

    Mays vs. Mantle

    Chamberlain vs. Russell

    Unitas vs. Starr

    Manning (P) vs. Brady

    I'll concede that both sides of each version of such an argument had stellar supporting casts, good-to-superior management/coaching, and their fair share/ lack of luck, all are championship winners (only difference is quantity)...but yet, the differences in each set of comparisons (i.e. personalities, apllicable skills, environments etc.) between the athletes is remarkably similar....which is why each of these discussions will continue forever among sports fans...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Belenus555. Show Belenus555's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Thrown under the bus Peyton Manning - entire colts organization Tom Brady - no one
    Posted by Harleyroadking111


    H:

    Must be a pretty big bus.....LOL!!



     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    That's very true, but if you want to talk about players being devalued... When referring to Manning and his individual numbers, you have to devalue Marvin Harrison (Who, in my opinion should go to the HOF), Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokely, Dallas Clark (I'd rather have him than Antonio Gates as a catching only tight end), the O-line, Edgerrin James, and Dungy. It works both ways.
    Posted by Dead54


    Frankly, I don't think manning is better than brady - at least not the way each's respective team is constructed.  I was just having fun with the article.  Besides, what else can we do in the off season. 

    really the only decent comparison would be the 04 colts and the 07 pats, because both had record breaking offenses.  Because the pats went further in the playoffs, it would suggest that brady was better, but again the defensive comparison of those two teams is like apples and oranges. 

    we'll never know, but I do wonder if Manning didn't think he had to win the game for the team, almost from the beginning of his career with the colts, because of the colts suspect defense, would he be a different qb today?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    At the end of the day comes the realization that they're both great quarterbacks.  There are indeed many factors on a team besides the QB that influence the game outcomes.  I'll pick Brady, but this is basically a Mercedes vs. BMW debate.  No coach in their right mind would blink at taking either of them.  The only issue with Manning is his tendency to cry when the game isn't going well.  He just picks the wrong times to get in touch with his feminine side.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ritchie-az. Show Ritchie-az's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    It's like the old arguement: Who's better, Marino, Elway or Montana?
    Does it matter? Is anyone still debating that?

    For me, all that matters is wins, especially the ones that earn rings and trophies. Beyond that, who cares? I certainly don't.

    One thing I will say: 2009 should be a much more exciting year for Patriot fans than for Colts fans.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    I do wonder if Manning didn't think he had to win the game for the team, almost from the beginning of his career with the colts, because of the colts suspect defense, would he be a different qb today?

    Although I do believe that Manning cannot measure up to Brady in high pressure situations...at least in the playoffs, I'd have to say no to your question. Manning is a very competitive guy, and I doubt he'd play any different regardless of the defense. Perhaps the coaches would have tried to have him be a bit more conservative, but he seems to do what he wants to (case in point: waving the punting unit off the field on 4th down). Whatever shortcomings (real or perceived), I believe he goes out and tries to be "the best" every time he hits the field. I doubt he would "back off" even if he had a defense who could stop anyone (like, say, the 85 Bears) and get the ball back.
     
    At the end of the day comes the realization that they're both great quarterbacks.

    There is no question about that, I'd lay odds that both are first ballot HOFers.

    I'll pick Brady, but this is basically a Mercedes vs. BMW debate.

    I'd take Brady solely on his performances in the postseason. But I think I may put your analogy a little different, say Maserati vs. Ferrari (not sure which is which, as I drive a Monte Carlo!), but both head and shoulders above the rest of the competition!

    It's like the old arguement: Who's better, Marino, Elway or Montana? Does it matter? Is anyone still debating that?

    I'm sure people will be debating this for many years to come. Of those three, it would have to be Monatana; Elway; then Marino. But soon (if not already) Brady and Manning will be thrown into the mix along with these guys. As it stands now, I'd put Brady second only to Montana (for better SB stats only). But I'd have to put Elway ahead of Manning as his performance in his two championships indeed outshone Peyton's in SB 41. I also think Bradshaw should be in the mix somewhere. Though he didn't put up huge stats he always came through on the big stage and got the ball to his receivers when it counted most.

    So to put it in a nutshell, there really is no end to this argument. Everyone has their own opinions and "favorites", so there will never be a true consensus (unless either Brady or Manning win the next 3 SBs and throw for 7 or 8 TDs in each). Suffice it to say all these guys are pretty much the best who've ever played, and any coach (with an IQ over 10) would be more than happy to have any one of them leading his team!


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    You have a point about defenses. The year the Colts won it all it was truly due to their defense doing a 180 in the postseason (i.e. the KC and Baltimore games). But you cannot discount the differential of play in the postseason, however badly the defense did. Brady has had his best games in January (and Feb.), while Manning has played his absolute worst in the playoffs. Regardless of wins and losses, look at the discrepancy of his performances between regular and postseason play. It should be obvious, even to a Colts fan. And as for giving away games, there's no possible way the defense could be credited with what Rosenfels did in that Houston game! Even the Chiefs would have won that one!!!
    Posted by bubthegrub2


    Tom Brady's postseason passer rating is 88 with 14 wins and 3 losses.
    Peyton Manning's postseason passer rating is 85 with 7 wins and 8 losses. 

    I don't take stats as a full explanation of anything, but that doesn't mean they don't have relevance or provide insight.  For the records to be so different while the passer ratings are near equal suggests something other than QB play played a substantial role in the record differential.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    I don't take stats as a full explanation of anything, but that doesn't mean they don't have relevance or provide insight.  For the records to be so different while the passer ratings are near equal suggests something other than QB play played a substantial role in the record differential.

    Two points in "rebuttal".

    1.) You forgot to put the TD/INT stats in your post. I haven't looked them up, but I'm sure Brady would win by a handy margin.

    2.) While passer rating suggests they both have done well, if you look at them on a game by game basis it would show that Brady is much more consistent, and some of Manning's worst games ever came in January.

    Also, in at least two of the Colts wins in their title season of 06, they actually won despite Manning. AV kicked 5 FGs for the only points in the Baltimore game, and it's hard to lose when your opponent fails to score a single point after starting a drive first and goal at the nine! Take away that one playoff run and the Colts are 4-8 in January. And in those eight losses Peyton played pretty badly.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Bub,

    In fairness to underdogg, he did mention that he doesn't like stats as a full measure of anything -- and you just pointed out why he is right to feel that way -- you can pick and choose the stats that support your point and leave out everything else.

    And apart from that, the current quarterback rating system is a convoluted faux doppleganger of a fake sham.

    It doesn't rate anything other than some obscure mathemetician's ability to confuse borderline retarded sports "pundits."

    Last season, Tarvaris Jackson had a quarterback rating of 95.4.

    I'm just gonna leave that hanging there and let you decide what it means.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    td/int - Manning 22/17; Brady 26/12

    As for Baltimore in 06 - The ravens D ranked #1 in yds allowed AND points allowed.  the ravens team ranked #1 in Givaway/Takeaway differential AND #3 in pt differential AND #6 in yds differential.  The D ranked #1 in 1st downs allowed AND ints; #1 in both passsing and rushing TD's allowed.  

    This raven's defense statistically (and here statistics do matter) was one of the best EVER.  The ravens were undefeated at home that year and the colts beat them on their field under wet rainy conditions. 

    In Brady's first sb year his avg rating was in the 80 range
    In Brady's 2nd sb year - 2 of his 3 games were rated under 80.  sb was 100
    Rather than calling Brady spectacular, I'd say he's been a good game manager until recently when he has become one of the 2 best QB's in the game.   

    As for Manning, his first 3 playoff games (all losses, were unremarkable or bad).  Then he got better, but that is when the colts started playing the pats.  And its true, other than the 06 afccg, the pats have had mannings #. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Bub, In fairness to underdogg, he did mention that he doesn't like stats as a full measure of anything -- and you just pointed out why he is right to feel that way -- you can pick and choose the stats that support your point and leave out everything else. And apart from that, the current quarterback rating system is a convoluted faux doppleganger of a fake sham. It doesn't rate anything other than some obscure mathemetician's ability to confuse borderline retarded sports "pundits." Last season, Tarvaris Jackson had a quarterback rating of 95.4. I'm just gonna leave that hanging there and let you decide what it means.
    Posted by prairiemike


    Precisely my point. To look at the "big picture", the only stats that really matter are wins and losses. NE has the edge there, 14-3 to 8-8. But since he brought up the passer rating (which I agree is something out of a science fiction book), I merely pointed out the TD/INT stat was just as relevant (moreso, IMO). And even his "spin" on the passer rating is skewed. But game by game it paints quite a different picture.A couple games of a 120 rating or so evens out those stinkers where he threw picks like Favre! I suppose it's as futile as trying to convince Bolt that an 8-8 team couldn't possibly be considered better than an 11-5 team. Some people will believe what the want to, and no amount of logic or facts will dissuade them. Such is the case with these two guys.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    As for Baltimore in 06 - The ravens D ranked #1 in yds allowed AND points allowed.

    In 04 the Steelers were the best defense in the league. Yet NE beat them in the AFCCG, and Brady didn't get shut out of the end zone.

    Rather than calling Brady spectacular, I'd say he's been a good game manager until recently when he has become one of the 2 best QB's in the game.

    I never said Brady was "spectacular". My point was that in postseason play Brady was consistently good, while Manning has had his worst games ever.

    As for Manning, his first 3 playoff games (all losses, were unremarkable or bad).  Then he got better, but that is when the colts started playing the pats.  And its true, other than the 06 afccg, the pats have had mannings #. 

    It seems the Chargers have his number, too. Although he does play better against the Chargers (he's 77/136; 56.7%, 2 TD/6 INT against NE), he still hasn't won a game in January. And in each of the nine seasons he's made the playoffs, he's yet to match (and in most years even come near) to his numbers in the regular season. So I don't see how this refutes the facts that I've posted...that Brady has been better in January than Manning has over the course of their careers.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    I looked at the game you brought up, and the pats got 4 turnovers - 2 in pitts first 2 possessions.  Brady hit 2 big plays making up for more than half his yardage.  Nice game, but lets not forget the defense's part in it.  

    As for San Diego, its true that they've beaten the colts, but it has not been Manning's fault. 

    In 08, one of manning's 2 int's was a 5 yard dump pass on the SD 5 yd line to kenton keith that was laid perfectly into his facemask to chest area.  Keith stone handed it and a falling SD LB just happened to be on the ground when the ball fell on top of him.  Turn that one play around and Indy wins that game.  The other int was a first half ending hail mary.  If you're only a stat guy, those hurt manning, but the reality is that one was immaterial and the was not his fault. 

    In 09 - the chargers punter punts the colts behind their 10 yd line 4-5 times and Darren Sproles and the chargers run all over the colts D for 170 yds. 

    I think Manning gets all of the blame for the colts losses and still gets blamed for some of his poorer postseason play early in his career. 

    I am happy for both of our teams that we have the QB's we have.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    I looked at the game you brought up, and the pats got 4 turnovers - 2 in pitts first 2 possessions.  Brady hit 2 big plays making up for more than half his yardage.  Nice game, but lets not forget the defense's part in it.   As for San Diego, its true that they've beaten the colts, but it has not been Manning's fault.  In 08, one of manning's 2 int's was a 5 yard dump pass on the SD 5 yd line to kenton keith that was laid perfectly into his facemask to chest area.  Keith stone handed it and a falling SD LB just happened to be on the ground when the ball fell on top of him.  Turn that one play around and Indy wins that game.  The other int was a first half ending hail mary.  If you're only a stat guy, those hurt manning, but the reality is that one was immaterial and the was not his fault.  In 09 - the chargers punter punts the colts behind their 10 yd line 4-5 times and Darren Sproles and the chargers run all over the colts D for 170 yds.  I think Manning gets all of the blame for the colts losses and still gets blamed for some of his poorer postseason play early in his career.  I am happy for both of our teams that we have the QB's we have.
    Posted by underdogg


    I have never stated Manning should be solely to blame for all the Colts' postseason losses. But there have been a few games where he was outright horrible. The nature of the NFL is that the QB (deservedly or not) gets the lion's share of the blame for losses...and the lion's share of the credit for wins. I don't necessarily agree with this, but it is what it is. I noticed a lot of folks claiming Tom Brady was mainly at fault for the loss in SB 42. Yet had the O-line been effective, and the defense been able to stop the Giants on the last drive, Tom would have probably been hailed as the best QB in history, rivalling Joe Montana. He did drive them down for a go ahead TD in the last three minutes of the game. I also agree that Manning has improved in his postseason play over the years. But to look at it historically, Brady has done better. For all I know Manning may yet turn it around and win more SBs. Look at what Elway did, after looking extremely bad in his first three appearances he managed to win back to back championships (albeit with a better supporting cast) to end his career. But blame (and excuses) aside, Brady has simply been more consistent and better in January than Manning has to date. It's been so long, but I believe this whole thing started with a question of which QB you would rather have on your team. And my answer is Brady, for the reasons I've stated (repeatedly). But I'll agree it is nice to have one of the best QBs on my favorite team, and I can understand you feeling the same. But if we try and analyze every game I'm sure we can find a play or two which would have changed the outcome (at least in more than half of playoff games). In the end you have to look at the bigger picture, which is actual reults. And IMO 14-3 beats 8-8 any day of the week...and ten times on Sunday! Of course, don't tell that to JBolt, as he is of the opinion that an 8-8 record makes you the best team in the league!!!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Re: Jbolt - obviously I can't really say anything to him given our last 2 losses.  They are what they are. 

    But I will say this - if we have some of our defense back and some of our offensive line back and healthy (the injuries that these guys play with is incredible),

    Then I will chalk the past up to a punters day and a great day by darren sproles (neither of which I think would be duplicated), and I would look forward to another opportunity.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: NO WAY!!!

    Re: Jbolt - obviously I can't really say anything to him given our last 2 losses.  They are what they are.  But I will say this - if we have some of our defense back and some of our offensive line back and healthy (the injuries that these guys play with is incredible), Then I will chalk the past up to a punters day and a great day by darren sproles (neither of which I think would be duplicated), and I would look forward to another opportunity.
    Posted by underdogg


    It took some time, but the Colts finally were able to beat NE in the playoffs a couple years ago (albeit against a defense somewhat depleted by the flu). Manning truly had a great January game that day, coming back from an 18 point defecit. As much as it pains me to say so!!! So it's quite possible they will be able to get over this newest "hump" with the Chargers. I still think the loss of coaches will be a bigger handicap to overcome than any possible injuries...except, of course, losing Manning. And don't think I'm "wishing" an injury on him, as I hate to see any player lost that way, however much I might detest him! My point about bolt is he is utterly incapable of being objective about his team. To finish 8-8 is mediocre at best, win your (weak) division or not! And they would not have done so had the Broncos not crashed and burned down the stretch. Another reason I think McDaniels made a wise move in getting rid of Cutler. Porous defense aside, he just didn't seem to be able to finish stongly, something championship caliber teams are able to do. All in all, I still believe that our teams (along with the Steelers and maybe SD) will remain the top in the conference. I can't wait for the season to begin!!!
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share