Off Topic: WW2

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to ricky12684's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    Sorry I know I posted a huge speech and it's alot of reading but here are some other sound bytes from the man:

    August 21, 1931, Butler spoke to an American Legion convention in New Britain CT. Looking back, he reflected on his career. His remarks stunned the audience. Few papers dared report even part of the speech:

    "I spent 33 years...being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism....

    "I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1916. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City [Bank] boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the rape of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street....

    "In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested....I had...a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, promotions....I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate a racket in three cities. The Marines operated on three continents..." (p 118).

     



    good stuff!



    Yeah he thought their was a plot by businesses to overthrow the government, as it turned out he was the being swindled and was publicly made a fool when it came out.  Hence the above words.

    Regardless, what does saying "war is bad" really do?  Is it your position that we should have just rolled over and let the Germans and Japanese come on in and take over the country?  

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from glenr. Show glenr's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

    Gotta go with Robert E Lee again - battle of wilderness in 1864. Confederates being pushed back and on verge of being routed, Lee got on his horse and charged the Union lines - and the retreating Confederates turned and followed him to win the day. Another leader sadly NOT mentioned here was a guy named George Washington....




    Washington was mentioned earlier. Different era though than the world wars. Back then wars were fought 'gentlemanly'. Remember that the first American revolutionary war militia were considered dispicable terrorists by the British because they hid behind trees and popped off shots at the enemy including officers. They did this instead of linining up all neat and orderly 50 yards from each other in the accepted method of fighting. Mechanization and rapid fire rifled weapons changed all that.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to ricky12684's comment:

    and of course pat tillman. the man single handedly put to rest the cliche that "there are no atheists in foxholes." haha



    Just out of curiosity, what do you think the saying "there are no atheists in foxholes" means?  Or for that matter, what do you think the word "cliche" means?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from IrishMob7. Show IrishMob7's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    Thanks for posting that, Woz.  Not many people know about the Business Plot and the people that have heard of it, deny that it has merit to this day; these are the same people that live in denial and believe that the Government would never kill any of its own citizens to start a war based on false pretexts.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    In response to ricky12684's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    Sorry I know I posted a huge speech and it's alot of reading but here are some other sound bytes from the man:

    August 21, 1931, Butler spoke to an American Legion convention in New Britain CT. Looking back, he reflected on his career. His remarks stunned the audience. Few papers dared report even part of the speech:

    "I spent 33 years...being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism....

    "I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1916. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City [Bank] boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the rape of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street....

    "In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested....I had...a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, promotions....I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate a racket in three cities. The Marines operated on three continents..." (p 118).

     



    good stuff!



    Yeah he thought their was a plot by businesses to overthrow the government, as it turned out he was the being swindled and was publicly made a fool when it came out.  Hence the above words.

    Regardless, what does saying "war is bad" really do?  Is it your position that we should have just rolled over and let the Germans and Japanese come on in and take over the country?  



    He wasn't fooled by anyone, he was their inside man, bring forth your proof if you have it. I offer you Congressional testimony and the word of a man who did more for his country than just about anyone... you offer opinion with nothing to substantiate it.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to IrishMob7's comment:

    Thanks for posting that, Woz.  Not many people know about the Business Plot and the people that have heard of it, deny that it has merit to this day; these are the same people that live in denial and believe that the Government would never kill any of its own citizens to start a war based on false pretexts.



    Agreed, it's funny how Robert Macnamara admits with his dying gasps that the Gulf Of Tonkin incident never happened, that we've since proved that it didn't, but there will still be people fighting here to say that it did.  Brainwashing runs deep.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    Wow thanks Wozzy, I had never heard of Smedley Butler.  I can see why - the media that supports the military industrial complex wouldn't want his name widely known.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from IrishMob7. Show IrishMob7's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to IrishMob7's comment:

    Thanks for posting that, Woz.  Not many people know about the Business Plot and the people that have heard of it, deny that it has merit to this day; these are the same people that live in denial and believe that the Government would never kill any of its own citizens to start a war based on false pretexts.



    Agreed, it's funny how Robert Macnamara admits with his dying gasps that the Gulf Of Tonkin incident never happened, that we've since proved that it didn't, but there will still be people fighting here to say that it did.  Brainwashing runs deep...  



    Yup.  "Tonkin Ghosts" lol what a freaking scam.

    How about Operation Northwoods?  Hmm not many people even know about that.  Sick stuff.

    I don't want to get into any other events that might trigger more animosity but it's just sad that so many people always accept the story because the mainstream media or our government reported it.  Very sad indeed.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    I'm aware of Smedley Butler.  A controversial figure to be sure and someone with an interesting perspective on the nature of war and the making of war.  It's clear that profiteering does happen during wartime.  Is it as prevalent now as Butler alleges it was during his time?  Unlikely, given the nature and capability of the media today.  

    Not entirely certain how Pat Tillman turns out to be a hero while countless others who have done similar or even more heroic things in the service of their country are somehow 'pawns.'  But since my intellect clearly doesn't rise to that level I guess it's simply beyond me.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    In response to ricky12684's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    Sorry I know I posted a huge speech and it's alot of reading but here are some other sound bytes from the man:

    August 21, 1931, Butler spoke to an American Legion convention in New Britain CT. Looking back, he reflected on his career. His remarks stunned the audience. Few papers dared report even part of the speech:

    "I spent 33 years...being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism....

    "I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1916. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City [Bank] boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the rape of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street....

    "In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested....I had...a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, promotions....I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate a racket in three cities. The Marines operated on three continents..." (p 118).

     



    good stuff!



    Yeah he thought their was a plot by businesses to overthrow the government, as it turned out he was the being swindled and was publicly made a fool when it came out.  Hence the above words.

    Regardless, what does saying "war is bad" really do?  Is it your position that we should have just rolled over and let the Germans and Japanese come on in and take over the country?  



    He wasn't fooled by anyone, he was their inside man, bring forth your proof if you have it. I offer you Congressional testimony and the word of a man who did more for his country than just about anyone... you offer opinion with nothing to substantiate it.



    What do you want me to do, teach you to use google?  It's common knowledge, I can post all day long but I can't convince you it's false any more than I can prove the world is round over the internet.  

    Obviously, the government didn't get overthrown.  If you want to believe in huge conspiracies with 500,000 people ready to take the government go ahead.  But there sure as heck isn't proof to back that up.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    Serious question, who believes we landed on the moon?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to glenr's comment:

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

    Gotta go with Robert E Lee again - battle of wilderness in 1864. Confederates being pushed back and on verge of being routed, Lee got on his horse and charged the Union lines - and the retreating Confederates turned and followed him to win the day. Another leader sadly NOT mentioned here was a guy named George Washington....




    Washington was mentioned earlier. Different era though than the world wars. Back then wars were fought 'gentlemanly'. Remember that the first American revolutionary war militia were considered dispicable terrorists by the British because they hid behind trees and popped off shots at the enemy including officers. They did this instead of linining up all neat and orderly 50 yards from each other in the accepted method of fighting. Mechanization and rapid fire rifled weapons changed all that.



    Civil War was the first "modern war" -  the artillery with exploding shells and canister shot were right on par with todays field guns, and the rifle muskets with minie balls were good to 600 yards. Only difference was only a few times were aerial balloons used to direct out of line of sight artillery fire.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    Come on Shenanigan, the United States government goes to war primarily to make money for special interests.  This isn't earth shattering, it's been commonly known that all governments do this throughout history.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to themightypatriots' comment:

    Come on Shenanigan, the United States government goes to war primarily to make money for special interests.  This isn't earth shattering, it's been commonly known that all governments do this throughout history.



    I'm not entirely sure I would so much call that 'commonly known'; 'believed in some circles' is probably the way I would characterize it.  As I posted earlier, there's an element of profiteering in any war.  Labeling it as demonstrable fact and the basis for declaring war is a bit of a reach.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    What do you want me to do, teach you to use google?  It's common knowledge, I can post all day long but I can't convince you it's false any more than I can prove the world is round over the internet.  

    Obviously, the government didn't get overthrown.  If you want to believe in huge conspiracies with 500,000 people ready to take the government go ahead.  But there sure as heck isn't proof to back that up.



    It's funny, people will believe in ghosts, angels, aliens, faith healing, chupacabra, loch ness monsters, and bigfoot... but a conspiracy of man is a huge stretch.

    All the major news media is owned by Disney, The News Corp, Viacom and Time Warner which are in turn owned by the above people but it would be a conspiracy theory to think they had an agenda.

    There is ample proof beyond the Congressional testimony and the fact that Prescott Bush was fined by the SEC for doing business with the Nazi's long after it had been deemed illegal.

    [edit] Further reading Wikimedia Commons has media related to:  Smedley D. Butler Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to:  Smedley Butler

    • "Camp Smedley Butler website"United States Marine Corps. Retrieved January 28, 2010.
    • "Butler, Smedley D.". Dictionary of American Biography, Supplements 1–2: to 1940. February.
    • Hoffman, Jon T., Colonel (USMCR, Ret) (December 6, 2007) [2002]. Muschett, James O. (Project Editor). ed. USMC: A Complete History. Crumley, Beth L. (Illustration Editor), Charles J. Ziga (Design) (Beaux Arts ed.). Printed in China: Hugh Lauter Levin Associates, Inc.. pp. 135, 146–9, 151, 154–5, 165–6, 216–7. ISBN 0-88363-617-4.
    • McFall, J. Arthur (February 2003). "After 33 years of Marine service, Smedley Butler became an outspoken critic of U.S. foreign policy". Military History 19 (6): 16.
    • Sweetman, Jack (1968). The Landing at Veracruz: 1914. Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    But if "because I say so" is good enough for you than ok...

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    Well I'll just say that war is wrong, and is only justified if you're defending yourself or someone else.  The only justifiable outside war in American history is WW2 against Hitler, even on the Japanese side I believe there was a lot of conniving going on to provoke Japan into a war to open up that region to American business interests.  

    And when I say wrong, I mean the worst thing a human can do - murder someone else, usually thousands or millions of women and children.  So the USA has committed a lot of crimes in its history and has a lot to answer for.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    Serious question, who believes we landed on the moon?



    I'm not looking for retribution for things past, I'm looking with an eye toward the future.

    If we really want to reach our full potential why don't we take all this wasted energy and project out into space and test the limits of humanity instead of sullying it with bloodshed and strife.  We should attain to be so much more.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

     

    What do you want me to do, teach you to use google?  It's common knowledge, I can post all day long but I can't convince you it's false any more than I can prove the world is round over the internet.  

    Obviously, the government didn't get overthrown.  If you want to believe in huge conspiracies with 500,000 people ready to take the government go ahead.  But there sure as heck isn't proof to back that up.



    It's funny, people will believe in ghosts, angels, aliens, faith healing, chupacabra, loch ness monsters, and bigfoot... but a conspiracy of man is a huge stretch.

    All the major news media is owned by Disney, The News Corp, Viacom and Time Warner which are in turn owned by the above people but it would be a conspiracy theory to think they had an agenda.

    There is ample proof beyond the Congressional testimony and the fact that Prescott Bush was fined by the SEC for doing business with the Nazi's long after it had been deemed illegal.

    [edit] Further reading Wikimedia Commons has media related to:  Smedley D. Butler Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to:  Smedley Butler

    • "Camp Smedley Butler website"United States Marine Corps. Retrieved January 28, 2010.
    • "Butler, Smedley D.". Dictionary of American Biography, Supplements 1–2: to 1940. February.
    • Hoffman, Jon T., Colonel (USMCR, Ret) (December 6, 2007) [2002]. Muschett, James O. (Project Editor). ed. USMC: A Complete History. Crumley, Beth L. (Illustration Editor), Charles J. Ziga (Design) (Beaux Arts ed.). Printed in China: Hugh Lauter Levin Associates, Inc.. pp. 135, 146–9, 151, 154–5, 165–6, 216–7. ISBN 0-88363-617-4.
    • McFall, J. Arthur (February 2003). "After 33 years of Marine service, Smedley Butler became an outspoken critic of U.S. foreign policy". Military History 19 (6): 16.
    • Sweetman, Jack (1968). The Landing at Veracruz: 1914. Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD.



    Half those links say it was a hoax.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to shenanigan's comment:

    Serious question, who believes we landed on the moon?



    I'm not looking for retribution for things past, I'm looking with an eye toward the future.

    If we really want to reach our full potential why don't we take all this wasted energy and project out into space and test the limits of humanity instead of sullying it with bloodshed and strife.  We should attain to be so much more.



    Respectfully, that is a tremendously noble and commedable goal.  However, hardly realistic given the nature of the world and the diverse views, beliefs and value systems of those who populate it.  Whether we like it or not there are those who truly believe that the country in which most of us who post in this forum now live is the earthly manifestation of evil. That's neither exaggeration nor a misrepresentation.  There is ample evidence to demonstrate that is the case.  Why doesn't matter.  What matters is that this country has enemies who want it at the very least damaged and diminished and at the very worst destroyed.  Until such time as we can all sit around the campfire and have one worldwide chorus of Kumbaya there's going to be a need for a viable military and capable men and women who can lead it.  

    Butler had some valid points and there's evidence that at least some measure of a conspiracy existed.  To each I say so what?  Neither has anything to do with what is facing our nation today.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    In response to themightypatriots' comment:

    Come on Shenanigan, the United States government goes to war primarily to make money for special interests.  This isn't earth shattering, it's been commonly known that all governments do this throughout history.



    I'm not entirely sure I would so much call that 'commonly known'; 'believed in some circles' is probably the way I would characterize it.  As I posted earlier, there's an element of profiteering in any war.  Labeling it as demonstrable fact and the basis for declaring war is a bit of a reach.



    You mean Bush 41 wasnt telling the truth when he said the first Iraq war was about "naked aggression" and not about oil??

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    In response to themightypatriots' comment:

    Come on Shenanigan, the United States government goes to war primarily to make money for special interests.  This isn't earth shattering, it's been commonly known that all governments do this throughout history.



    I'm not entirely sure I would so much call that 'commonly known'; 'believed in some circles' is probably the way I would characterize it.  As I posted earlier, there's an element of profiteering in any war.  Labeling it as demonstrable fact and the basis for declaring war is a bit of a reach.



    You mean Bush 41 wasnt telling the truth when he said the first Iraq war was about "naked aggression" and not about oil??



    I don't think it was about either one.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    Respectfully, that is a tremendously noble and commedable goal.  However, hardly realistic given the nature of the world and the diverse views, beliefs and value systems of those who populate it.  Whether we like it or not there are those who truly believe that the country in which most of us who post in this forum now live is the earthly manifestation of evil. That's neither exaggeration nor a misrepresentation.  There is ample evidence to demonstrate that is the case.  Why doesn't matter.  What matters is that this country has enemies who want it at the very least damaged and diminished and at the very worst destroyed.  Until such time as we can all sit around the campfire and have one worldwide chorus of Kumbaya there's going to be a need for a viable military and capable men and women who can lead it.  

    Butler had some valid points and there's evidence that at least some measure of a conspiracy existed.  To each I say so what?  Neither has anything to do with what is facing our nation today.



    People hate America? Given all the women and chilren around the world the United States has killed in its wars, they have good reason.  It's not like America has been minding its own business since 1776 - it has been actively interfering with the rest of the world and a lot of people are justifiably p***d off.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Off Topic: WW2

    In response to themightypatriots' comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    Respectfully, that is a tremendously noble and commedable goal.  However, hardly realistic given the nature of the world and the diverse views, beliefs and value systems of those who populate it.  Whether we like it or not there are those who truly believe that the country in which most of us who post in this forum now live is the earthly manifestation of evil. That's neither exaggeration nor a misrepresentation.  There is ample evidence to demonstrate that is the case.  Why doesn't matter.  What matters is that this country has enemies who want it at the very least damaged and diminished and at the very worst destroyed.  Until such time as we can all sit around the campfire and have one worldwide chorus of Kumbaya there's going to be a need for a viable military and capable men and women who can lead it.  

    Butler had some valid points and there's evidence that at least some measure of a conspiracy existed.  To each I say so what?  Neither has anything to do with what is facing our nation today.



    People hate America? Given all the women and chilren around the world the United States has killed in its wars, they have good reason.  It's not like America has been minding its own business since 1776 - it has been actively interfering with the rest of the world and a lot of people are justifiably p***d off.



    To a greater or lesser degree there is some truth to that.  With all due respect, so what?  Because this country doesn't have an umblemished record in international affairs we should fold our tent and place a giant 'kick me' sign on the Statue of Liberty?

    It is my belief that we remain the greatest nation ever conceived by man with a flawed but still superior system of government.  By my way of thinking it's worth fighting for and I have.  If you disagree, more power to you.  In this country you have the right not only to disagree but to vigorously and publicly state that disagreement.

     
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