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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 3:52 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    tp you wore down ud6.... i dont think you will do that with rusty...   i dont have a problem with pats bringing in a good veteran at guard... cannon will definatly fill that role in future but thats a while away...  let them all compete... i def want to be able to run ball at will so we can switch sh*t up whn we have to get rush off brady...and close games out...and im more concerned at tight end...   thinking about it... he must have been thinking solder can be that addtional tackle like te... why didnt i see that...some other poster did...it makes sense...
    Posted by jcour382


         Not trying to wear down Rusty...LOL!!! He's a good guy...whose just an extremely passionate Pats' fan.
     
         Cannon is a mountain of a man...and a good OG/RT prospect. Let's hopes he gets 100% healthy soon...for his sake, and the sake of the team.

         Interesting thought on Solder putting in some time at TE. Based on what I've seen, he's getting bowled over by bull-rushing DEs...and is not yet ready to step in at OT. He needs to add more bulk, and some muscle. 
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 4:01 PM EDT


    Waters a great pickup...sorry to see Maneri go, but it's always a numbers game and maybe we'll see him back here after a day or two....look for Crumpler to be resigned this week as well....or next week.....most writers have been hinting about that for several weeks anyways...
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 5:58 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot : I don't see it that way either. I do think you were a little dramatic with the "haunting" term on your thread the other day.  You chose that term to be dramatic and we could literally make lists FAR WORSE than that for like 90% of NFL teams in the last decade.
     
    RESPONSE: Agreed. No team is going to be perfect. If a team was perfect in it's decision making every year, it would probably win the SB every year. But, from the standpoint that the Pats have not won a playoff game since 2008...these mistakes have haunted the team.

    Everyone has varying opinions on the O Line, but I think Connolly's injury only heightened the need for a solution. Bedard just did a nice anlysis on this, even though he needed to be slapped for not realizing Vollmer is probably the best RT in the AFC right now.  lol I think Waters will only help Vollmer this year.

    RESPONSE: After watching those last three pre-season games, you can't help but be concerned about what's going on with the OL. Every team that plays the Patriots now is following the "blue-print" to beat them...by applying pressure up the middle. But, when you stop to think about it, isn't every team vunerable to the same "blue-print"? The Polian passing rules dictate that defenses must get to the QB in order to get off the field.   
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing

     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters A Patriot?

    posted at 9/4/2011 6:21 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters A Patriot?:
    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters A Patriot? :      Agreed, brd. It's a done deal.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    now thats the results i'm talkin about :)
    now at safety/db, wr?

    and whoever just said to waters was to fix injury problem there. disagree, it was to fill ineptitude problem there.
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters A Patriot?

    posted at 9/4/2011 6:22 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters A Patriot?:
    Bye bye Butler!
    Posted by DoNotSleepOnThePats


    one can only hope.
    we need better db's
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 6:27 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    Manieri  was  released.   I  don't  think  BB  is  finished  with  the  OL.  I  hope  they  can  add  Gurode  for  a  reasonable  price, if  he's  recovered from  knee  surgery.  I  know  that  Koppen  is  valued  by  many  posters  and  the  mantra  has  been - " we  can  replace  Koppen  next  year."  However, I  believe  Koppen  is  another  weak  link  in  the  interior  OL.  Why  not  replace  Koppen  this  year  with  Gurode ?
    Posted by zeitgeist49


     what i have been saying is that we needed 2 guys on the oline (gurode). dont need to dump koppen now.
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 6:32 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot :
    Posted by TexasPat3


    agreed, not sure they dump koppen during th   though. still adding 2 top g/c's will help the line tremendously
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 6:38 PM EDT

    To nobody in particular,

    The Waters signing was a great one, he isn't a kid but went to LAST years Pro Bowl and with the talent surrounding him he should flourish in the Patriot environment. I don't have any concerns at all really about our team's age, we have a solid mix of vets and young guys.  

    We have bookend towers for tackles, two all Pro run pavers for guards and a solid technician of a center, along with Connelly who can start anywhere along the line, then again so can Matt Light.  Solder didn't have 14 weeks of camp, he played really well in the preseason considering, as did the rest of the rookies including the ones we cut.

     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 6:59 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    To nobody in particular, The Waters signing was a great one, he isn't a kid but went to LAST years Pro Bowl and with the talent surrounding him he should flourish in the Patriot environment. I don't have any concerns at all really about our team's age, we have a solid mix of vets and young guys.   We have bookend towers for tackles, two all Pro run pavers for guards and a solid technician of a center, along with Connelly who can start anywhere along the line, then again so can Matt Light.  Solder didn't have 14 weeks of camp, he played really well in the preseason considering, as did the rest of the rookies including the ones we cut.
    Posted by wozzy


         I have to disagree with you that Solder played well during the pre-season. He was repeatedly over-powered by bull-rushing DEs. He needs to add some bulk, and some muscle to his athletic 6'8" frame.
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 7:02 PM EDT

    Footwork, repetition, practice... and yeah he can probably get stronger in the upperbody.

    My point was in a shortened preseason he looked solid.
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 7:27 PM EDT

    I liked Solder in limited glimpses

    He's got the potential.  Watch him GROW.  I've never seen a 330/340-pound man look that skinny.  He could play at 350-360 in muscle and still look proportionate.

    *note: I'm using real weights, not the made-up ones they post on rosters
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 7:49 PM EDT

    "Just to refresh your recollection, the Pats' lost their last three playoff games to teams that succeeded in pressuring Brady up the middle. That's where Connolly, Ohrnberger, and Koppen reside. The Pats need to upgrade both RG and C positions."

    TexasPat


    I don't remember it that way, and considering Belichick has done a minimal through FA and the draft to shore up the "middle" of the offensive line I would guess he agrees with me.

    I mean if we really lost the last 3 playoff games to teams that pressured Brady up the middle I would think he would do more then draft Rich O in the 4rth round in 2009.

    I saw a Jets team that took away Brady's underneath options and confused him and our offensive coordinator with 3 - 4 man pressures, delayed blitzing and mixing up defensive sets.

    The Pats loss in the SB was our entire o-line being dominated not just the interior as you suggest and the ravens game in 09 had a lot more to do with a 7th round QB out of Kent state as our only viable receiving option

    Nice try pinning our lack of playoff wins on Dan Koppen and whoever our  right guard may have been though.

    Anyway as I said earlier with Connoly and Rich O's injury we do need more depth at guard, but I doubt these recent injuries will go down as something that "Haunts" Bill Belichick and co.
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 8:07 PM EDT

    So much for guards not being important and not need to be paid also. Case in point the detroit game! Really miss Joe Andruzzi(wrong spelling?)
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 8:57 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    " Just to refresh your recollection, the Pats' lost their last three playoff games to teams that succeeded in pressuring Brady up the middle. That's where Connolly, Ohrnberger, and Koppen reside. The Pats need to upgrade both RG and C positions." TexasPat I don't remember it that way,
     
    RESPONSE: Really? You don't remember the Giants moving guys like Justin Tuck , Mathias Kiwanuka, and Jay Alford...and them crashing through the middle of the Pats OL to sack Brady three times?? You don't remember how Brady couldn't complete a middle screen to an all alone Maroney because of the pressure over the middle of the line? Please!! Perhaps, if you dare, you should watch that game again (I don't have the stomach for it).
         You don't remember Haloti Ngata smashing through the middle of the Pats' line during the loss to the Ravens...and Shaun Ellis stunting over the Patriots' OGs to harass Tom Brady? You must have a short, or selective memory, my friend.

    and considering Belichick has done a minimal through FA

    RESPONSE: What the hell is "a minimal through free agency"??
     
    and the draft to shore up the "middle" of the offensive line I would guess he agrees with me.
     
    RESPONSE: What did BB do through the draft to shore up the "middle" of the OL? Nate Solder is an OT. Marcus Cannon probably won't play this season.

    I mean if we really lost the last 3 playoff games to teams that pressured Brady up the middle I would think he would do more then draft Rich O in the 4rth round in 2009.
     
    RESPONSE: Agreed. But, he hasn't...until  he pulled the trigger to sign Brian Waters...and signed Mankins to a lucrative, long term deal. 

    I saw a Jets team that took away Brady's underneath options and confused him and our offensive coordinator with 3 - 4 man pressures, delayed blitzing and mixing up defensive sets.
     
    RESPONSES: The blitzes and stunts came primarily up the middle...not around the OTs: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22984863/

    The Pats loss in the SB was our entire o-line being dominated not just the interior as you suggest and the ravens game in 09 had a lot more to do with a 7th round QB out of Kent state as our only viable receiving option
     
    RESPONSE: Again, you must have a selective memory. Both the DL and OL were manhandled by the Ravens in that game...with Ngata leading the charge.

    Nice try pinning our lack of playoff wins on Dan Koppen and whoever our  right guard may have been though. Anyway as I said earlier with Connoly and Rich O's injury we do need more depth at guard, but I doubt these recent injuries will go down as something that "Haunts" Bill Belichick and co.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you disagree with the consensus reasons why the Pats lost these games...and you don't thing too highly of Tedy Bruschi's opinion that the interior part of the Pats' OL is flawed.  
    Posted by TrueChamp

     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 10:18 PM EDT

    Tex, NICE SPINNING.

    Justin Tuck is a DE 2 sacks
    Strahan is a DE 1 sack

    I remember both dusting our tackles, and in the link you provided it simply repeats what I already stated that the Giants(who were the #1 sack team in the NFL) dominated our entire offensive line. It does not back up any point you think you may have made about our interior linemen being the culprits, just so you know.

    The only interior pass rusher to record a sack was Alford with 19 seconds left on the clock when Brady was throwing hailmary's.  So nice attempt at spinning.

    I said BB has done nothing to shore up the interior o-line because I don't think he felt like he needed to, which directly contradicts your point. In case you forgot it, your point was our interior line was responsible for our last 3 playoff losses.

    If Belichick felt this way I believe he would have addressed it other then continue to play the same guys he already had(Koppen,Neal,Mankins and whoever else)

    Just to be clear I am directly opposed to your notion that our offensive line is any more a concern then what 32 other teams have. I agree we need guard depth but only because of recent injuries to Connoly and Rich O.
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 11:42 PM EDT

    Waters is a creampuff; bad move. Been watching this guy for the past few years.......nothin' 
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/4/2011 11:49 PM EDT

    its always nice to hear from you revolted. thanks for checking in

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    Waters is a creampuff; bad move. Been watching this guy for the past few years.......nothin' 
    Posted by jbolted

     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/5/2011 12:05 AM EDT

    It's been reported that Jaws and Gruden loved Solder this preseason.  Why is that you think?
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/5/2011 12:37 AM EDT

    From ESPNBoston.com:

     http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/6930806/brian-waters-provide-needed-depth-new-england-patriots

    According to stats logged by Pro Football Focus, Waters didn't give up a single sack in 1,065 regular-season snaps last season. In fact, he allowed a mere eight QB pressures and had the second best pressure-per-snap percentage of guards who took at least 50 percent of their team's snaps (behind only Cincinnati's Bobbie Williams).

    Overall, PFF graded Waters as the 12th best guard in the league last year (among those who played at least 25 percent of their team's total snaps), eight spots ahead of Stephen Neal (10 QB pressures in 503 snaps) and 22 spots ahead of Dan Connolly (17 QB pressures in 812 snaps). Neal has since retired and Connolly currently is out of action with an ankle injury.

     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/5/2011 5:46 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    I liked Solder in limited glimpses He's got the potential.  Watch him GROW.  I've never seen a 330/340-pound man look that skinny.  He could play at 350-360 in muscle and still look proportionate. *note: I'm using real weights, not the made-up ones they post on rosters
    Posted by Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188


    exactly what i said (years of experience in the area) and many shot me down. regardless, hes got to get a lot stronger. its clear he hasnt been in the gym for years doing powerlifting.
     

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    Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot

    posted at 9/5/2011 7:23 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: OG Brian Waters a Patriot:
    Tex, NICE SPINNING. Justin Tuck is a DE 2 sacks Strahan is a DE 1 sack I remember both dusting our tackles, and in the link you provided it simply repeats what I already stated that the Giants(who were the #1 sack team in the NFL) dominated our entire offensive line. It does not back up any point you think you may have made about our interior linemen being the culprits, just so you know. The only interior pass rusher to record a sack was Alford with 19 seconds left on the clock when Brady was throwing hailmary's.  So nice attempt at spinning. I said BB has done nothing to shore up the interior o-line because I don't think he felt like he needed to, which directly contradicts your point. In case you forgot it, your point was our interior line was responsible for our last 3 playoff losses. If Belichick felt this way I believe he would have addressed it other then continue to play the same guys he already had(Koppen,Neal,Mankins and whoever else) Just to be clear I am directly opposed to your notion that our offensive line is any more a concern then what 32 other teams have. I agree we need guard depth but only because of recent injuries to Connoly and Rich O.
    Posted by TrueChamp


    They played Tuck and Strahan over Connolly that game a lot. Neal went down and it was like the floodgates opened. Not that Neal was a great pass blocker either ... he got man handled by Ngata. And Connolly was the only OL player that looked bad against the Jets last div round. He gave up one and a half sacks, once getting shredded with Koppen by Ellis and another letting Ellis jail-break forcing Brady to run right into Koppen and Koppen's man. 

    NE does need to solve that G spot. Connolly is a great backup, and part of the OL depth that has always been a strength of this team. But once everyone is injured having good depth starting means you are thin, and not very talented. I am hoping that Waters finds the fountain of youth for one season, and that Cannon can come on strong next season. I love Connolly as a great sub ... he can play all three  spots and is a nifty run blocker ... would love someone better in his spot over the long haul though. Cannon fits the bill ... he is huge and can anchor really well, sealing things off. He could help Vollmer improve out there just by his presence, and give them the option of sliding Koppen the other way once in a while.