One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

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    One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    Last year when the Jets lost their starting C for just a few games they fell apart.

    Last year when the Patriots lost their starting C for the SEASON they kept playing very well. THEN they lost their second strong center for a couple of games and what happened? They kept playing very well. THey ended up 13-3! They ended up in the SB and coming close to winning it.

    I think we should all thank whoever the GM was who made that possible. GO ahead... thank him....

    A really good GM, especially in the cap era, knows that depth is not a luxury. They know that eventually over a 16 game season - and the playoffs if the team is good enough to get that far - depth eventually translates into talent on the field and then into wins. A really good GM in the cap era doesn't play fantasy football (like the Eagles for example, or like the Chargers, or like the Cowboys, or like the dady of them all the Redskins). He realizes that big names do not win games. That no matter how GREAT your QB is.. no matter WHO he might be or how pretty his wife football is the quinisential team sport. It takes a whole team. A whole team.

    This little example comparing the centers of the Pats and Jets is illustrative of why this is so. We should thank whoever that unhearladed GM is. Anyone know his name?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    Who are the Jet's centers hiking the ball to? I'll tell you what, you put Tom Brady, Dante Scharnechia and Bill Belichick on that Jet team last year and they might do the same thing. I'm not saying BB is a bad GM, I just think that Tom and Bill Belichick the coach make BB the GM better than he maybe has done in the last 5 years. I don't put much attention to rankings, but Lindy's ranks 15 teams with higher draft grades over the last 5 seasons. 
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    I agree with the general premise.
    I think with BB, regardless of how long he coaches, and with or without TB, a less than .500 season is very unlikely going forward.  He has so many versatile players that can play multiple positions that the loss of few players aren't going to cause catastrophic failure.
    Having said that, we all saw what an injured Gronk did for the chances in the SB.  With a healthy Gronk the Pats win the game IMO.
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]Who are the Jet's centers hiking the ball to? I'll tell you what, you put Tom Brady, Dante Scharnechia and Bill Belichick on that Jet team last year and they might do the same thing. I'm not saying BB is a bad GM, I just think that Tom and Bill Belichick the coach make BB the GM better than he maybe has done in the last 5 years. I don't put much attention to rankings, but Lindy's ranks 15 teams with higher draft grades over the last 5 seasons. 
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]

    As his wife said, Tom can't do everything.

    I guess you didn't see any of the Jets games last year. If you cannot block you cannot run. Even if you have Jim Brown or Barry Sanders or whoever you want to pick.

    And if you cannot block you cannot pass (at least not too far downfield). Even if you have Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or John Unitas or whoever you want to pick.

    This is nothing new. It is the most rudimentary aspects of football. And neither Brady, nor BB as coach nor Dante as coach can actually make the blocks.

    Let's put it this way: did you watch the SB after the 2007 16-0 season? Did you see how much time Brady was getting? Why doo YOU think the O had so much trouble? Did Tom Brady lose the SB? DId he lose it again this year? Are you saying that TB cannot win the big one anymore? Or is it that he NEEDS guys to block for him and guys to catch the ball and guys to play D and kick and cover...? 

    Brady cannot block or tackle or cover the opponents receivers any more than any QB can! There is a reason why there are 11 men on the field on O and another 11 on D and another 11 on KOs and punts and FGs and why there are backups and role players and packages (yes, there are packages... because it is sometimes advantageous to put in a player with specific skills that you might not want in there as much in a different situation - you ever wished for a "pass rusher" on this team?)

    So NO.... the Jets fell apart because their GM left them with no depth and too many flaws. The Pats weathered their storms because their GM knows it takes a WHOLE TEAM to play football. Unlike too many fans (and a handful here!) he realizes -as GM - that he needs 53 players. He even says it....

    And if you doubt that but think the world of BB the coach then listen to what BB the coach says. He says you need 53 players to play 16 games and the playoffs. If he were setting a roster for 4 games I am sure he would adjust his strategy as GM. But the GM listens to what COACH BB says he NEEDS. Do you think you know BETTER then BB the coach as to what BB the coach needs? I think not.

    Stop playing fantasy football when you are talking about the real thing.
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]Who are the Jet's centers hiking the ball to? I'll tell you what, you put Tom Brady, Dante Scharnechia and Bill Belichick on that Jet team last year and they might do the same thing. I'm not saying BB is a bad GM, I just think that Tom and Bill Belichick the coach make BB the GM better than he maybe has done in the last 5 years. I don't put much attention to rankings, but Lindy's ranks 15 teams with higher draft grades over the last 5 seasons. 
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]

    On the subject of DRAFT grades - A GM does not just oversee the draft. I do not doubt that there are better people in terms of picking during the draft. But when you take EVERYTHING into account - which includes FA and trades for players and trades for and of draft picks, then BB is superior. And while he might not hit as often as we would loike in the draft itself he does find ways of getting a good share of extra picks. And that is something you CANNOT overlook. You cannot cherry pick.

    Furthermore, when you do look at the draft, it is not only how well you do in rounds 1-2 but in all rounds. And BB does pretty well in mid and later rounds.

    So I agree to some extent about draft picking. But stop the cherry picking.

    IT IS LIKE SAYING WELL, TOM BRADY CANNOT THROW WELL ON THE RUN,IS NOT A GOOD RUNNER EITHER AND MAYBE MORE TELLING IS JUST NOT AT ALL SPECIAL THROWING DEEP. SO IF YOU TAKE ALL THAT TOGETHER HE JUST CANT BE ANYTHING BUT AVERAGE.

    It doesn't work that way does it. Same goes for GMs or coaches.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    Replacing Koppen is one HELL of a lot easier than replacing Mangold. This proves nothing about BB's GMing abilities.

    BTW, this is the epitome of cherry picking (even though it's invalid), isn't it?
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : As his wife said, Tom can't do everything. I guess you didn't see any of the Jets games last year. If you cannot block you cannot run. Even if you have Jim Brown or Barry Sanders or whoever you want to pick. And if you cannot block you cannot pass (at least not too far downfield). Even if you have Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or John Unitas or whoever you want to pick. This is nothing new. It is the most rudimentary aspects of football. And neither Brady, nor BB as coach nor Dante as coach can actually make the blocks. Let's put it this way: did you watch the SB after the 2007 16-0 season? Did you see how much time Brady was getting? Why doo YOU think the O had so much trouble? Did Tom Brady lose the SB? DId he lose it again this year? Are you saying that TB cannot win the big one anymore? Or is it that he NEEDS guys to block for him and guys to catch the ball and guys to play D and kick and cover...?  Brady cannot block or tackle or cover the opponents receivers any more than any QB can! There is a reason why there are 11 men on the field on O and another 11 on D and another 11 on KOs and punts and FGs and why there are backups and role players and packages (yes, there are packages... because it is sometimes advantageous to put in a player with specific skills that you might not want in there as much in a different situation - you ever wished for a "pass rusher" on this team?) So NO .... the Jets fell apart because their GM left them with no depth and too many flaws. The Pats weathered their storms because their GM knows it takes a WHOLE TEAM to play football. Unlike too many fans (and a handful here!) he realizes -as GM - that he needs 53 players. He even says it.... And if you doubt that but think the world of BB the coach then listen to what BB the coach says. He says you need 53 players to play 16 games and the playoffs. If he were setting a roster for 4 games I am sure he would adjust his strategy as GM. But the GM listens to what COACH BB says he NEEDS. Do you think you know BETTER then BB the coach as to what BB the coach needs? I think not. Stop playing fantasy football when you are talking about the real thing.
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    Well I think you can also look at it this way...does Tom make players around him better? I think that is the case. Does Bill Belichick the coach make players on this roster better? I think that is also the case. So the point I was trying to make is that if you put Tom Brady and Bill Belichick on (not just the Jets) but virtually any NFL team, they'd win and win big time. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

    You said it yourself that a GM's duties is more than the draft, before you consider this to be the highlight of Bill Belichick the GM, consider these players...Banta Cain, Bodden, Springs, Ocho, Haynesworth, Fred Taylor, Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, Barret, Adalius Thomas, Pierre Woods...

    On the flip side you have...Moss, Welker, Woodhead, Warren, Waters, Carter.

    To me it's a mixed bag...maybe average, maybe good. I don't think I'd call that very good, but when you throw in a coach that can take an average player and put him in positions that he will not be exposed - I think that's more good coaching than really good GMing. Saying to a player...look, you can't cover, you'll be in the game for 20 snaps - you'll be going forward on 15 of them. On the five where you'll be going backwards (covering) we'll make sure you're locked up with (this guy), we'll give you help...these are 7 things this guy likes to do...we'll make sure you know every single way to defend that before you step on that field Sunday...you'll be fine if you work hard.

    This is a very heavily coached team and we have the best guy doing it. It also helps to have a quarterback that is so damn accurate that even a perfectly defended play usually has no chance to stop him.

    Again, I'm not saying BB is a bad GM, I just wouldn't go out there and say he's done really good over the last 5 years. Now some bad luck has played into it (Wright getting hurt and Pryor), but some of it was not luck (Haynesworth, Ocho).
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]Replacing Koppen is one HELL of a lot easier than replacing Mangold. This proves nothing about BB's GMing abilities. BTW, this is the epitome of cherry picking (even though it's invalid), isn't it?
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    The Jets FELL APART. The Pats didnt fall apart even with a thrid string C. That has everything to do with the roster and nothing to do with the QB or the coach.
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : Well I think you can also look at it this way...does Tom make players around him better? I think that is the case. Does Bill Belichick the coach make players on this roster better? I think that is also the case. So the point I was trying to make is that if you put Tom Brady and Bill Belichick on (not just the Jets) but virtually any NFL team, they'd win and win big time. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. You said it yourself that a GM's duties is more than the draft, before you consider this to be the highlight of Bill Belichick the GM, consider these players...Banta Cain, Bodden, Springs, Ocho, Haynesworth, Fred Taylor, Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, Barret, Adalius Thomas, Pierre Woods... On the flip side you have...Moss, Welker, Woodhead, Warren, Waters, Carter. To me it's a mixed bag...maybe average, maybe good. I don't think I'd call that very good, but when you throw in a coach that can take an average player and put him in positions that he will not be exposed - I think that's more good coaching than really good GMing. Saying to a player...look, you can't cover, you'll be in the game for 20 snaps - you'll be going forward on 15 of them. On the five where you'll be going backwards (covering) we'll make sure you're locked up with (this guy), we'll give you help...these are 7 things this guy likes to do...we'll make sure you know every single way to defend that before you step on that field Sunday...you'll be fine if you work hard. This is a very heavily coached team and we have the best guy doing it. It also helps to have a quarterback that is so damn accurate that even a perfectly defended play usually has no chance to stop him. Again, I'm not saying BB is a bad GM, I just wouldn't go out there and say he's done really good over the last 5 years. Now some bad luck has played into it (Wright getting hurt and Pryor), but some of it was not luck (Haynesworth, Ocho).
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]


    The Jets FELL APART. The Pats didnt fall apart even with a third string C. That has everything to do with the roster and nothing to do with the QB or the coach.
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    So Babe and mthurl both think that the example say NOTHING about the roster, nothing about the GM. They both think that if BB is coach of the Jets and TB is QB then the Jets would be great.

    If TB the QB is able to overcome all that lack of talent and depth then why hasn't TB won a SB in all these years since the team had a more solid D and a more established running game? By your standards - not mine - TB is just not good enough to win the big games anymore.

    You cannot have it both ways: (1) that TB is so good he overcomes all obstacles and (2) that it is not his fault they don't win the SB because of all those obstacles he has to overcome.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]So Babe and mthurl both think that the example say NOTHING about the roster, nothing about the GM. They both think that if BB is coach of the Jets and TB is QB then the Jets would be great. If TB the QB is able to overcome all that lack of talent and depth then why hasn't TB won a SB in all these years since the team had a more solid D and a more established running game? By your standards - not mine - TB is just not good enough to win the big games anymore. You cannot have it both ways: (1) that TB is so good he overcomes all obstacles and (2) that it is not his fault they don't win the SB because of all those obstacles he has to overcome.
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    TB hasn't won an SB in years because the GM BB doesn't have the great inherited players to fill out the team that he had when they were actually winning them and BB the GM has to try to win the SB with the team he built around Tom. It's pretty obvious.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from sporter81. Show sporter81's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]Last year when the Jets lost their starting C for just a few games they fell apart. Last year when the Patriots lost their starting C for the SEASON they kept playing very well. THEN they lost their second strong center for a couple of games and what happened? They kept playing very well. THey ended up 13-3! They ended up in the SB and coming close to winning it. I think we should all thank whoever the GM was who made that possible. GO ahead... thank him.... A really good GM, especially in the cap era, knows that depth is not a luxury. They know that eventually over a 16 game season - and the playoffs if the team is good enough to get that far - depth eventually translates into talent on the field and then into wins. A really good GM in the cap era doesn't play fantasy football (like the Eagles for example, or like the Chargers, or like the Cowboys, or like the dady of them all the Redskins). He realizes that big names do not win games. That no matter how GREAT your QB is.. no matter WHO he might be or how pretty his wife football is the quinisential team sport. It takes a whole team. A whole team. This little example comparing the centers of the Pats and Jets is illustrative of why this is so. We should thank whoever that unhearladed GM is. Anyone know his name?
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    Good example, BB builds his teams with quality depth that can withstand most of the injuries that occur every season. Look at the past 10 years and the Patriots are the best NFL team. This isn't luck or just because of a good QB, its the outstanding GM and coaching job that BB has done. BB has more picks than anyone else so of course he will miss some. When he does he still finds a way to field a top 5 team every year. 2010 will go down as one of the greatest drafts every for any team.

    I can't name a better GM than BB. Thompson in Green Bay is very good, so is Newsome in Baltimore, but BB is the best. 

     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : While I would agree with you about replacing Koppen being easier than replacing Mangold the difference lies in philosophy about how the teams have opted to build  their roster in the cap era. The Jets spend a big percentage of their cap...15 players @ 2.5m against the cap where the Pats have 8. It allows NE to build a roster with better quality depth.
    Posted by jri37[/QUOTE]


    Well, the example might not be fair anyway.

    Dante can make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Not to mention his boss is the best coach in the game.

    That's why a microcosm example like this just doesn't give a true measure of the big picture regarding a GM.

     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]In Response to One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : Good example, BB builds his teams with quality depth that can withstand most of the injuries that occur every season. Look at the past 10 years and the Patriots are the best NFL team. This isn't luck or just because of a good QB, its the outstanding GM and coaching job that BB has done. BB has more picks than anyone else so of course he will miss some. When he does he still finds a way to field a top 5 team every year. 2010 will go down as one of the greatest drafts every for any team. I can't name a better GM than BB. Thompson in Green Bay is very good, so is Newsome in Baltimore, but BB is the best. 
    Posted by sporter81[/QUOTE]

    How good would Newsome be if he had BB for a coach and Brady for a QB?

    I would say for the last 7 years he would have had a dynasty on his hands.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    The Jets have Mike Swinging Genius Tannenbaum.  This guy has been legendary.  He's really bad.

    He drafted DeWayne Shrimpy-Arms Robertson, Vernon Stone-Hips Gholston, the Sanchize, and Kyle Mini-Me.  I ragged on all of these guys right from draft day (and in the case of Stone-Hips and Tebow too, from a week before draft day).  When I can consistently outdraft an NFL general manager, that's a pretty bad sign. 

    He signed an over-the-hill LaDanian Tomlinson, who couldn't run the ball at all.  Tomlinson is still waiting for somebody, anybody, to sign him for 2012. 

    He signed a guy who, with the playoffs on the line, gave up playing in the huddle in the Jets' most recent loss.  Tannenbaum loves to sign people who act utterly stupid and often violent when extremely drunk, which is early and often.  Nobody knows quite how toxic the Jets' locker room is at this point, but it's bad enough that Peyton Manning ran the other way.

    Now Tannenbaum signed Tebow to complement Sanchize.  Trouble is, the two QBs do not at all complement each other.  Neither one should be on the field in obvious passing situations.  Maybe Rex Ryan is going to put himself in at QB when it's third and 10.   

    Tannenbaum got ridiculed by one columnist for not looking at Tebow's contract before he agreed to the trade.  New York has to pay half of Tebow's Denver bonus now. 
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from flutie66. Show flutie66's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : TB hasn't won an SB in years because the GM BB doesn't have the great inherited players to fill out the team that he had when they were actually winning them and BB the GM has to try to win the SB with the team he built around Tom. It's pretty obvious.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    this is a great point that i have been considering for years.  players like willie mac, ty law, tedy bruschi, and coaches like charlie wiess and remeo crennel dont come around often.  i know BB brought the coaches with him that he had worked with on the jets and giants, but that staff and many of the core players was largly assembled by parcells. i am generally happy with what BB has done as a GM, but i feel like his strategy works well when you have a few players that are stars, and he hasnt wanted to go after those players very often
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    [QUOTE]So Babe and mthurl both think that the example say NOTHING about the roster, nothing about the GM. They both think that if BB is coach of the Jets and TB is QB then the Jets would be great. If TB the QB is able to overcome all that lack of talent and depth then why hasn't TB won a SB in all these years since the team had a more solid D and a more established running game? By your standards - not mine - TB is just not good enough to win the big games anymore. You cannot have it both ways: (1) that TB is so good he overcomes all obstacles and (2) that it is not his fault they don't win the SB because of all those obstacles he has to overcome.
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    Uhm, yeah I guess that's what I'm saying (not the part where Tom can't win the big games - that's all you). I would have to think that Bill Belichick could do even better with that defense and the bottom of their roster. I would venture to guess that Holmes would be slightly happier with Tom Brady hitting him with passes that are on target, rather than only being able to run a short slant (because that's the only pass Sanchez hits consistently).

    I'm sorry if you find this confusing Portfolio...maybe this will make it easier for you to understand? Picture Sanchez throwing passes on OUR team - now he's going to have to do this without the aid of a very good running game or a defense that will keep opponents from scoring/eating up the clock at will. How do you think we'd be at that point? I can picture it now...Sanchez drops back to pass..he attempts his 14th short slant of the game...it goes to Welker (who is triple teamed)...oh darn!! It's picked off!
     
    Now picture this...SExy RExy (that's Rex Ryan) is now the mastermind of our defense. Rex lays out the game plan...he tells McCourty he's going to leave him to defend the entire left half of the field (like he does with REvis). Sounds good eh? Now he is going to have our stellar safeties work to totally eliminate the opposing team's tight end and the other one to fly into the backfield to stuff the run. Should be easy for our safeties right? Next he will employ multiple exotic blitz packages for our superior pass rushing linebackers that we have. That should scare the day lights out of opposing quarterbacks. Heck we might only allow the other team's offense to be on the field for 10 minutes...total!

    You know what? I don't want to talk about the Jets all night, but yeah I'd venture to guess the Jets would do just fine if they had our quarterback and head coach.
     
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    So is this a 'Thank the GM post or what? Seems a re-incarnation of BB vs TB again:

    According to your expression here describes Brady: Note the CAPS! Doubling down of words?

    That no matter how GREAT your QB is.. no matter WHO he might be or how pretty his wife, football is the quinisential team sport. It takes a whole team. A

    whole team. No matter WHO? Does this also apply to Belichick? Apparently NOT!

    According to your expression here describes Belichick:

    1) I think we should all thank whoever the GM was who made that possible. GO

    ahead... thank him....

    2) We should thank whoever that unhearladed GM is. Anyone know his name?

    So whats your Real point? Belichick adding fill-in value with FA/UFA? Sure

    he's good! But there remains a few key positional players to put us over the top, not fill-ins. May we thank the GM for the D'fence too. Who's responsible for D'fense? .....The D'Coord?

    Draft picks are a Mixed bag, overall pretty bad. It's like BB the coach asking Belichick the GM 'what happened to Preparation A thru G'? It hurts!

    The Pats minus 4 good current players are a 7-9 TEAM!
    The Pats PLUS 4 good added players are 15-1 TEAM! IMO

    And you do'nt play an injured player when he is only 20% of himself. Oh, that was the Coach not the GM.

    I enjoy your posts..

     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    mthurl wrote:

    Well I think you can also look at it this way...does Tom make players around him better?

    He didn't make Ochocinco any better.
     
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