One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from markja. Show markja's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    Babe, you are truly an idiot.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    Although there was no real need to read the posts once I saw who the posters were I read 'em anyway.  There are essentially two schools of thought in this forum on BB as a GM:  One says he is ok, nothing to write home about.  The other says he's about as good as they come.

    Those who view BB as ok and nothing more are not going to change their minds despite what BB's proponents offer as evidence that he is much better.  Those who view BB as among the best there is are not going to change their minds despite what others offer to support their argument.

    I happen to think there's nobody better than BB either as GM or coach.  Note I did not say that he is perfect; only that he is the best there is.

    My humble 2 cents.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    Babe, you are truly an idiot.
    Posted by markja


    This, coming from someone who is challenged to string together a coherent sentence. Yeah, I read a couple of your posts, LMAO. If all I could muster is the pathetic content of your whole 4 posts I would wear a bag over my head. Nothing more funny than being called an idiot by a verifiable imbecile. Run along fool. Come back after you finish 5th grade and are ready for the big boy talk.
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : The Jets FELL APART. The Pats didnt fall apart even with a thrid string C. That has everything to do with the roster and nothing to do with the QB or the coach.
    Posted by portfolio1



    It's hard to lend credibility to this slice of an example as proving anything. It's also difficult to reconcile why you think comparing the dysfunctional jets to BB is pertinent to the discussion of his worth as a GM.

    Where was BB's great depth in the defensive backfield?
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    So Babe and mthurl both think that the example say NOTHING about the roster, nothing about the GM. They both think that if BB is coach of the Jets and TB is QB then the Jets would be great. If TB the QB is able to overcome all that lack of talent and depth then why hasn't TB won a SB in all these years since the team had a more solid D and a more established running game? By your standards - not mine - TB is just not good enough to win the big games anymore. You cannot have it both ways: (1) that TB is so good he overcomes all obstacles and (2) that it is not his fault they don't win the SB because of all those obstacles he has to overcome.
    Posted by portfolio1


    OBVIOUSLY, Tom doesn't overcome that lack of talent and depth. I never said he has, because he hasn't. And I never said if he was on another team they would be winning SBs left and right. But anybody in their right mind would certainly say if he were on the jets and Sanchez was on the Pats we would have our hands full with them bigtime.

    How about Tom on the Ravens? Probable dynasty over the last 7 years.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : While I would agree with you about replacing Koppen being easier than replacing Mangold the difference lies in philosophy about how the teams have opted to build  their roster in the cap era. The Jets spend a big percentage of their cap...15 players @ 2.5m against the cap where the Pats have 8. It allows NE to build a roster with better quality depth.
    Posted by jri37



    Okay. So in what way does comparing to the dysfunctional jets show BB to be a great GM?

    How good would the 9ers be with BB as HC and Brady as QB? The Ravens? The Dolphins? Even the Browns?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : Good example, BB builds his teams with quality depth that can withstand most of the injuries that occur every season. Look at the past 10 years and the Patriots are the best NFL team. This isn't luck or just because of a good QB, its the outstanding GM and coaching job that BB has done. BB has more picks than anyone else so of course he will miss some. When he does he still finds a way to field a top 5 team every year. 2010 will go down as one of the greatest drafts every for any team. I can't name a better GM than BB. Thompson in Green Bay is very good, so is Newsome in Baltimore, but BB is the best. 
    Posted by sporter81



    What is a good example about comparing BB to the mess that is the jets? Why not compare him to the Raiders?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : this is a great point that i have been considering for years.  players like willie mac, ty law, tedy bruschi, and coaches like charlie wiess and remeo crennel dont come around often.  i know BB brought the coaches with him that he had worked with on the jets and giants, but that staff and many of the core players was largly assembled by parcells. i am generally happy with what BB has done as a GM, but i feel like his strategy works well when you have a few players that are stars, and he hasnt wanted to go after those players very often
    Posted by flutie66


    Yeah, he's done okay. I certainly never said he was a bad GM. But take away his great HC and great QB and you can seer more clearly how he has done as GM. Nothing to crow about.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    Without reading all the posts (so I apologize if what I say below has already been said), I agree with the original poster's contention that BB, as a GM, does a good job of building depth.  As a coach, he also does a great job of getting the most from his players, including those without true starting-level talent.  In fact, BB's skills as a coach make him look better as a GM because he gets more out of some players than just about any other coach in the league would get.  

    I think BB is a very good GM. Especially when you consider the low round draft picks he's been working with (and the number of forfeited high round picks the Pats have had to suffer with), his drafting and trading have been generally good.  The one dent in BB's record, I think, is some failures in talent selection that have resulted in a few unproductive drafts and a few busts in free agency.  Now every GM makes mistakes and taking into account BB's drafting position, he's not made any more mistakes than any other GM, but he's also not been all that much better either, at least in many drafts.  The consequence has been a team a bit short on impact players at some key positions.  This is particularly clear in the secondary where many picks have just failed to pan out, in the receiver corp, in the running back corp, and at outside LB.  While you have to praise BB for acquisitions like Volmer and Gronk and Hernandez and many others, you also have to weigh those against relatively high draft picks that went bust (sometimes after showing a little potential) like Butler, Tate, Crable, Maroney, Merriweather. You also have to recognize some inconsistency in free agent signings (where guys like Moss, Welker, and Harrison were great successes but guys like Thomas and Bodden were not very productive given their cap cost).  And finally, you have to wonder about BB's tendency to let guys leave (Samuel, Seymour, Vrabel a host of receivers such as Gaffney, Givens, and even Moss) without having a clear replacement for them.  To be truly great, BB needs to ensure there's a pipeline of talent to fill those positions as key guys leave.  Sometimes that hasn't been the case. 

    So overall, I rate BB as a very good GM, among the best in the league, but still not perfect. As Babe says, he's helped a lot by having Brady and by his own coaching ability. And as good as he's done at keeping the team talented enough to win every year, you can't quite give him unreserved praise as a GM when for much of last year the entire secondary was staffed with street free agents, practice squad call-ups, and wide receivers.  There's a reason why the pass defense was so weak last year--and a lot of that has to do with inferior talent, which ultimately is the GM's responsibility.  

     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    As Babe says, he's helped a lot by having Brady and by his own coaching ability.
    Posted by prolate0spheroid



    An average GM with BB for a HC and Brady at QB would have a similar success rate for the last 5 years as BB the GM has had.

    Put BB at HC and Brady at QB for the jets or Dolphins and give us theirs instead and they dominate the division, not us.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from msteven. Show msteven's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    To me, BB has done a great job of building a team.  Over the last 10 years they have been able to compete and win.  There have been many examples of how their depth has kept them winning.  2008, Brady goes down and they still have a winning season.  They have rebuilt over the last two years and still managed to win the division.  Look around the league.  How many teams are in the position that the Patriots are in?  They have cap space, they just went to the superbowl, and they have filled many needs on the roster with second level free agents.  They are going into the draft with 2 first and 2 second round picks and no glaring needs.  This allows them to pick the best player available and keep building.   Yes, it helps to have a QB like Brady but the players around him make him better as well.  The organization as a whole is one of the best in the league. 
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    To me, BB has done a great job of building a team.  Over the last 10 years they have been able to compete and win.  There have been many examples of how their depth has kept them winning.  2008, Brady goes down and they still have a winning season.  They have rebuilt over the last two years and still managed to win the division.  Look around the league.  How many teams are in the position that the Patriots are in?  They have cap space, they just went to the superbowl, and they have filled many needs on the roster with second level free agents.  They are going into the draft with 2 first and 2 second round picks and no glaring needs.  This allows them to pick the best player available and keep building.   Yes, it helps to have a QB like Brady but the players around him make him better as well.  The organization as a whole is one of the best in the league. 
    Posted by msteven


    It helps the GM to have the best HC in the league too.

    I still want somebody to convince me that if Miami or NYJs had Brady and BB the coach that they wouldn't have been dominating the division instead of us.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from provpats. Show provpats's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    of course they always could have brought mangold's sister in
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : It helps the GM to have the best HC in the league too. I still want somebody to convince me that if Miami or NYJs had Brady and BB the coach that they wouldn't have been dominating the division instead of us.
    Posted by BabeParilli


    That's a tough one, Babe.  I am of the opinion that BB drafts and pursues FAs to suit his coaching style.  Hardly a radical idea but my point is that merely supplanting BB and TB onto a team comprising players that are not 'BB types' would not necessarily produce the same result.  I doubt you will find this a particularly compelling argument particularly since you and I view BB differently in his GM role. 
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from DBCoach. Show DBCoach's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    BB is a great coach.  and his track record proves that..  BB is a terrible GM talent evaluator.. and his track record proves that
     
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    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : I only use the Jet's as a comparison to to highlight his philosophy as it pertains to team building. I never mentioned whether he was a great GM or a bad GM only that his philosophy as it pertains to Free Agents and drafting in the Salary Cap era has allowed the Pat's to stay championship competitive year in and year out. Do not get me wrong... I am a huge Brady advocate and would agree that Brady plays a significant role in the success of the team and has allowed BB to develop a balanced approach in building a 53 man roster year in and year out that consistently had better depth than most teams in the NFL. I guess a better way to say it is that he believes in spending more on the middle and bottom of the roster than most of the other teams.
    Posted by jri37


    I think he does address the middle and bottom of the roster more than others. And well he should because his HC is legendary for getting more out of marginal players. All the more reason to question his drafting overall. Every draft pick BB the GM gets is boosted by what BB the HC can get out of them.

     All I am saying is that this tactic is not the key to the team's success. The key is a great HC and QB. Plug those two into any number of teams and they might well boast the success we have seen in the last 5-7 years.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    Who are the Jet's centers hiking the ball to? I'll tell you what, you put Tom Brady, Dante Scharnechia and Bill Belichick on that Jet team last year and they might do the same thing. I'm not saying BB is a bad GM, I just think that Tom and Bill Belichick the coach make BB the GM better than he maybe has done in the last 5 years. I don't put much attention to rankings, but Lindy's ranks 15 teams with higher draft grades over the last 5 seasons. 
    Posted by mthurl



    Heres what makes being the coach beneficial, he knows what he wants, and he GETS what he wants.

    That is what makes BB a great GM. He see a player he wants he takes them, but at the same time he is able to know exactly what the team needs. I need depth so ill get depth instead of one big money guy.

    The results speak for themselves

    BB is a great GM because BB drafts and acquires the players that his coach BB wants and needs in order to make the TEAM better.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : Heres what makes being the coach beneficial, he knows what he wants, and he GETS what he wants. That is what makes BB a great GM. He see a player he wants he takes them, but at the same time he is able to know exactly what the team needs. I need depth so ill get depth instead of one big money guy. The results speak for themselves BB is a great GM because BB drafts and acquires the players that his coach BB wants and needs in order to make the TEAM better.
    Posted by ChasaB



    You have yet to refute the point that the great HC and great QB would make many other teams as good or better than the Pats have been in the last 5-7 years.

    Failing to refute that shows BB is no better than a buinch of other GMs that have built a team equal to or better than that which BB has built.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonSportsFan111. Show BostonSportsFan111's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    Replacing Koppen is one HELL of a lot easier than replacing Mangold. This proves nothing about BB's GMing abilities. BTW, this is the epitome of cherry picking (even though it's invalid), isn't it?
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Maybe its easier to replace Koppen than Mangold because the GM understands that it is having the right 53 football players to make up a good team, not the 'best' 22 players. Rather than spending $6 million a year for the 'best' center in the game, the Pats have taken the approach of having 3 guys who can fill in at multiple positions on the line and get the job done effectively (for that same $6 million). By having depth and backup plans for almost every contingency and injury, the GM has done his job.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : Maybe its easier to replace Koppen than Mangold because the GM understands that it is having the right 53 football players to make up a good team, not the 'best' 22 players. Rather than spending $6 million a year for the 'best' center in the game, the Pats have taken the approach of having 3 guys who can fill in at multiple positions on the line and get the job done effectively (for that same $6 million). By having depth and backup plans for almost every contingency and injury, the GM has done his job.
    Posted by BostonSportsFan111


    You think panic signing of street scrubs is planning for every contingency? Because our D had a bunch of that last season.

    This whole focus on the Mangold/Koppen replacement scenario falls far from the mark of shedding significant light on how good BB is as a GM. It's one small slice of the picture and narrowly focused regarding the breadth of pertinent comparisons.

    In other words; why are we discussing the relative depth at center of us and the jets? It's not 1/1000th of the answer.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make:
    In Response to Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make : Maybe its easier to replace Koppen than Mangold because the GM understands that it is having the right 53 football players to make up a good team, not the 'best' 22 players. Rather than spending $6 million a year for the 'best' center in the game, the Pats have taken the approach of having 3 guys who can fill in at multiple positions on the line and get the job done effectively (for that same $6 million). By having depth and backup plans for almost every contingency and injury, the GM has done his job.
    Posted by BostonSportsFan111



    This is exactly what makes BB a great GM as opposed to tannunBUM who is an average/Below Average GM.

    BB provided his team with Depth. By being able to switch players in and out and not seeing a large decline, and still preforming at an elite level is what is so incredible.

    You say "replacing mangold is different then replacing Koppen" to which i say WHY?! Both are centers, and both play the same role.
    We lost koppen for the year during the first game, and Connely stepped in.

    Connolly started 11 games and gave up 1.5 sacks.
    Mangold started 14 games and gave up 3 sacks.

    Connolly makes a fraction of what mangold makes.

    "but but, tom brady and the rest of the offensive line BB had nothing to do with that" -babe

    BS

    BB chose the players
    BB signed the players
    BB taught the players


    BB is a GREAT GM who created a dynasty that isnt even over yet.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    The coach and the QB have undoubtedly masked some of the flaws on this Pats roster over the years.  Brady has had one head coach, he's run one offense (despite mulitple coordinators) and BB hasn't had to search for a QB for a decade.  There is no doubt that this this kind of continuity has contributed to the success of this team the past decade. 

    I am of the opinion that Brady would have been a very good QB anywhere and that BB would have found a guy to win with at QB if Brady was never here.  (To the tune of a 3-2 record in Superbowls, I am not so sure.)  Brady and BB would be successful as individuals but each has enhanced the other's career.  If BB is here post-Brady, I think this team will still be competitive.    
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChasaB. Show ChasaB's posts

    Re: One Single example of the difference a really good GM in the cap era can make

    one of the responsibilities of a GM is to assists in selecting the coach. By never having to fire himself BB maintains consistency in his program.
     
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