ORGANIZATIONAL COHERENCE matters...Mr. Brady meet Mr. Cutler!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from choircontrarian. Show choircontrarian's posts

    ORGANIZATIONAL COHERENCE matters...Mr. Brady meet Mr. Cutler!

    i have seldom seen a qb look worse than cutler just looked tonite. i do not believe this guy just lost all his talents overnight. had he stayed with josh in denver, he could likely be engineerg  an 8-0 team right now (assumg his strengths would have won the 2 they lost). he had every ingredient necessary and in place with denver. he could still do it in denver but it wont be with lovie at the helm. will need a cowher or another skilled  but firm vet coach to keep him in line and run the show. will also need some skilled receivers that come from the top of the draft or free agent class. plus more depth at running bak esp now that forte has regressed. he pretty much has to unnecessarily tinkle with a whole new system and approach at the midpoint of his career. 

    conversely, our tommy has had it really good with pats. same owner, coach/gm, same approach, core good of on-the-same page receivers, OL, and running baks (regardless of talent peak). plus the synergy extends to how we play defense. they are there to help the offense a bit too, in same way the offense dominates possession of the ball to help keep the defense off the field. if brady really prioritizes all this and how great he has had it here (unlike what cutler did), he should easily be signed, sealed and delivered by training camp of next year for at least the next 5 years. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Well, you certainly live up to your user name.  I'll have to give you that much.  I think most of us here are happy to see Cutler get what he deserved.  I think Josh needed a QB who didn't think he was already on top of the world though.  It would have been hard for him to get Cutler on board with the program.  I don't know that Cutler doesn't regret his actions now.  Or maybe he likes throwing 5 INTs and setting the wrong kind of Bear records...

    As for Brady, I'm sure he does value the organization.  I  disagree a bit on the stability though.  Yes, he has had a stable environment where it really matters; head coach.  He is on his 3rd offensive coordinator.  Even though the system has remained intact, it's not like there are no minor quakes with each change.  Where I strongly disagree is on the steady crop of good receivers.  Prior to 2007, I think it was all Brady making the most of his receivers.  I'll give Troy his proper dues though.  He was legit.  In fact, Brady's ability to make something out of nothing is why I actually feel 2006 was his most impressive year at QB.  I know that sounds crazy in light of what he did in 2007, but in 2006 he almost took the team to the SB despite not having Troy for numerous games, the Doug Gabriel failure, Caldwell's first season with the team, and getting Gaffney well into the regular season.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    It's pretty much common sense.

    The player who goes for the money will sign with whomever.  They don't care if they are playoff bound or not.  It's all about money.  They may regret it later but some take the mantra it's make what you can while you can in this league.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from patpscyho. Show patpscyho's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:
    i have seldom seen a qb look worse than cutler just looked tonite. i do not believe this guy just lost all his talents overnight. had he stayed with josh in denver, he could likely be engineerg  an 8-0 team right now (assumg his strengths would have won the 2 they lost). he had every ingredient necessary and in place with denver. he could still do it in denver but it wont be with lovie at the helm. will need a cowher or another skilled  but firm vet coach to keep him in line and run the show. will also need some skilled receivers that come from the top of the draft or free agent class. plus more depth at running bak esp now that forte has regressed. he pretty much has to unnecessarily tinkle with a whole new system and approach at the midpoint of his career.  conversely, our tommy has had it really good with pats. same owner, coach/gm, same approach, core good of on-the-same page receivers, OL, and running baks (regardless of talent peak). plus the synergy extends to how we play defense. they are there to help the offense a bit too, in same way the offense dominates possession of the ball to help keep the defense off the field. if brady really prioritizes all this and how great he has had it here (unlike what cutler did), he should easily be signed, sealed and delivered by training camp of next year for at least the next 5 years. 
    Posted by choircontrarian


    You're an idiot. Brady and Cutler are day and night different.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from steelerjim58. Show steelerjim58's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

      Where I strongly disagree is on the steady crop of good receivers.  Prior to 2007, I think it was all Brady making the most of his receivers.  I'll give Troy his proper dues though.  He was legit.  In fact, Brady's ability to make something out of nothing is why I actually feel 2006 was his most impressive year at QB.  I know that sounds crazy in light of what he did in 2007, but in 2006 he almost took the team to the SB despite not having Troy for numerous games, the Doug Gabriel failure, Caldwell's first season with the team, and getting Gaffney well into the regular season.
    Posted by carawaydj[/QUOTE]
    For years it has been the same old song and dance with you guys.  You make it seem as if the only reason anyone ever caught a pass was because brady was throwing the ball.  The only reason anyone ever got open was because brady was the qb.  the bread and butter of this offense was and still is the dink and dunk approach.  Screens, slants, dump offs to the backs and yes I know moss can get deep.  And it does work very well, but please enough of this "brady had no one to throw to" crap.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:
    ...but please enough of this "brady had no one to throw to" crap.
    Posted by steelerjim58


    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to
    brady had no one to throw to :^)

    Unlike most of the fans on this site, I actually like and respect the Steelers.  That being said, did I mention that Brady had no one to throw to?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from steelerjim58. Show steelerjim58's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:
    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler! : brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to brady had no one to throw to :^) Unlike most of the fans on this site, I actually like and respect the Steelers.  That being said, did I mention that Brady had no one to throw to?
    Posted by carawaydj

    Yeah, I think you may have mentioned it.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    So you're saying good players don't play as well when they're on crappy teams.  If Peyton Manning were on the Lions they would be undefeated right now.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    If people want to call Tom a system QB, what would they call Peyton. The guy has had the same OC since his rookie year, he's had his two leading receivers with him for more than 5 years (Clark, Wayne). And to the Steelers fan, please ST7U! Without Dick Laboe's defense and the great RBs Big Ben has had to complement him he would be horrible. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ohyes. Show ohyes's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Choir and steeler are  right.
    It's not like Caldwell, Gaffney,Patten,Givens,Branch,and as much as we all loved Troy Brown are'nt headed to the HOF. Oh I meant at least still good fantasy players.

    By the way Cutler was not that good in Denver. The only reason he was made to be was HYPE made by the media a vary good run game ( Shann always had one)and two very good Wr's. Another reason the pro Bowl statius means squat. Remember McDaniels can't and won't win without Cutler.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Every quarterback is a "system" quarterback.

    The NFL is not your backyard. No one is drawing plays in the dirt.

    Beyond that I would suggest that a coaching staff that does not recognize its quarterback's strengths and tailor the offense to take advantage of them is simply not going to succeed.














    oh . . .  and Brady had no one to throw to.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Harleyroadking99. Show Harleyroadking99's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Caldwell was a great receiver he had the eyes for it, just not the hands..
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:
    If people want to call Tom a system QB, what would they call Peyton. The guy has had the same OC since his rookie year, he's had his two leading receivers with him for more than 5 years (Clark, Wayne). And to the Steelers fan, please ST7U! Without Dick Laboe's defense and the great RBs Big Ben has had to complement him he would be horrible. 
    Posted by 49Patriots


    The difference between Manning and Brady is that Manning is the system.  If he goes down, the drop off would be incredible. 

    Over time, I've come to realize that where Brady outshines Manning is in pure physical gifts.  He's got a better arm than Manning.  I don't know that he is more accurate overall than Manning, but on the hard throws, I think Brady makes those throws better than Manning. 

    But there is something to be said about a system.  the pats proved last year that they can win 11 games with a QB that hasn't started since High School.  Talent matters and the pats have that in spades and that helped Cassell.  But the pats also have a system of play that Cassell knew well and was not too difficult for him to execute. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Evil2009. Show Evil2009's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Yeah the system matters a lot but comparing Cutler to Brady is laughable. Cutler lacks the focus and coolness under pressure that you get from a Brady or a Manning. He's more like Rivers. Great arm and physical skills but lacking the mental toughness it takes to be one of the greats.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    The system did not make Cutler throw 5 Ints. Good coverage and bad decisions by Cutler did. Maybe he'll learn, but given his seeming arrogance, it's likely he won't. Kudo's to Josh for getting rid of him. He's a loser now, and likely will stay that way, despite his obvious physical talents.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Evil,
    I think Rivers is starting to mature and really play well. See how he does as the season heads towards crunch time, but I've changed my views on him a lot.
    Fut
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:

    i have seldom seen a qb look worse than cutler just looked tonite. i do not believe this guy just lost all his talents overnight. had he stayed with josh in denver, he could likely be engineerg  an 8-0 team right now (assumg his strengths would have won the 2 they lost). he had every ingredient necessary and in place with denver. he could still do it in denver but it wont be with lovie at the helm. will need a cowher or another skilled  but firm vet coach to keep him in line and run the show. will also need some skilled receivers that come from the top of the draft or free agent class. plus more depth at running bak esp now that forte has regressed. he pretty much has to unnecessarily tinkle with a whole new system and approach at the midpoint of his career.  conversely, our tommy has had it really good with pats. same owner, coach/gm, same approach, core good of on-the-same page receivers, OL, and running baks (regardless of talent peak). plus the synergy extends to how we play defense. they are there to help the offense a bit too, in same way the offense dominates possession of the ball to help keep the defense off the field. if brady really prioritizes all this and how great he has had it here (unlike what cutler did), he should easily be signed, sealed and delivered by training camp of next year for at least the next 5 years. 
    Posted by choircontrarian


    I have to disagree with you a little bit. Cutler has a strong history of throwing interceptions. 
    For this season, he's got more INTs than TDs.
    2008 = #2 in INTs behind Farve
    2007 = #12 in INTs (but only 6 INTs behind Carson Palmer with 20)
    2006 = In 5 games, he threw 5 INTs.

    The main reason why Josh McDaniels wanted to get rid of him is because, fundamentally, McDaniels didn't want the QB#1 to create turnovers.

    In constrast, look at Orton
    2009 = #49 w/ 4 INTs
    2008 = #89 w/ 12 INTs
    2007 = #46 w/ 2 INTs

    The problem with Orton was a question of arm strength.

    Orton obviously can protect the ball better than Cutler - and has shown that he is a better game manager.


    I never did understand why the Bears didn't play Orton more over Grossman. What was stranger is why the Bears wanted Cutler over Grossman - because they are both equally careless with the ball.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    BTW, I don't care if you're the best qb in the world, if you don't have an offensive line that can give you time to throw and/or if you don't have WRs/TEs who can catch a ball - then, you're not going to do very well.

    Montana, Marino, Manning, Brady, Staubach, and every other hall of fame QB had a decent supporting cast.....
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ozfree79. Show ozfree79's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    LMAO @ HRK!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Makassar. Show Makassar's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Bubba,

    I agree with you about McDaniel's assessment of Cutler.  I am certain that the first thing McDaniel's did after being hired was watch tape of Cutler, every throw, every play, probably over-and-over.  He likely made the assessment that Cutler - while maybe a Pro Bowler- was NOT the QB to run his offense because, like you pointed out, the tendency for turnovers.  Think Beldsoe here.

    Orton, or maybe even Cassell (whose name started the Cutler whining), may not have the Pro Bowl arm or pedigree, but demonstrated they could run an offense and protect the ball, especially in the red zone.  What's Belichek say about the most valuable contributions of his QBs?  Consistency, accuracy.  Not the ability to through it 80 yards downfield.  If so Jamarcus Russell would be All-Pro.

    Fans in Denver howled at McDaniels after the trade, but from my perspective it seemed like a genuine steal.  What some consider your best asset is really a liability, as McDaniels determined, so sell it high and get in return an asset (i.e. consistency) that other feel a liability (Orton, which like you I didn't understannd why he didn't get more of a chance there).  And Denver still has two first round picks coming as well, maybe top-15 picks.  It was brilliant. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from K-max. Show K-max's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:
    If people want to call Tom a system QB, what would they call Peyton. The guy has had the same OC since his rookie year, he's had his two leading receivers with him for more than 5 years (Clark, Wayne). And to the Steelers fan, please ST7U! Without Dick Laboe's defense and the great RBs Big Ben has had to complement him he would be horrible. 
    Posted by 49Patriots



    49,  I think it should be ST6U.  I love it and hope you don't mind me using it in the future.  Laughing
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from choircontrarian. Show choircontrarian's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    Very good responses... i would simply add that my intention was not to single out brady as a "system" qb. perhaps i should have stated that structures or organizations matter... i may in fact change that. i really do not believe that brady is just a system qb anymore than a peyton, montana or any other great qb. my point is if u are a brady or any other great qb, its delusional and naive to think that u can just show up anywhere and just instantly recreate a new england structure, discipline or system. if he went to the redskins, a snyder by default would mess it up for thats what he does. to oakland and an al davis would keep hiring track stars with pea brains who cant read defenses and make short-medium range route adjustments. regardless of how great a brady is, he doesnt directly influence or play on special teams or defense. put a tom cable  in charge of your team nad your team aint competing for rings regardless of how great your offense is gelling. its in his nature to sabotage winning. in summary, winning encompasses and STARTS with a great ownership structure and discipline. put down the $$$, build first class facilities, fields and travel systems along with a first class football ops team, then stay the helll away and trust them to do their jobs. and just maybe... assume they know more than you do (ie: the anti-jerry jones). you then need that coach to already have a plan in mind or to have been properly exposed to a great system that he can sequentially and strategically operationalize at both the coaching, staff and player levels. i am including minutae like training methods, diet, fitness standards, weight training, and offseason program. being able to have gravitas or ability to get basic respect and trust from your players and team both off and on the field are also important. bel having a bakground and knowledge in everything is a great help. he reallly is the brains behind the OFFENSE. he calls and has called a lot of the plays in the past. we forget that he once scolded and "suspended" weis for how he was calling plays and assumed those duties himself as the team continued to win. pats will always have the same offensive and defensive identities as long as bel is around. even on special teams, he has left his philosophical stamp for he once coached there too. dont forget we have had the same OL/offensive line coach from even before bel took over the team. winning that war is the beginning of ANY offense. having the smarts and desire to get that is key. apart from mankins (first rounder), i believe the rest of the OL were all bargain type guys. if you can save your bucks there and still get high performance, you well on your way. 

    lastly, esp if u are a brady,  you want that clear offensive approach. not just about you. as i wrote, his receivers may not have been great all-pros but they were all-pros specifically and limited to the PATS system. at their peak, the givens, troys, branchs, that local TE dude, the christan faurias, daniel grahams, gaffneys, and of course onr of my alltime faves... david whats-his-name, were all perfect within what they do. they may have been limited but bel almost never asks players to do what they cant do. as the sum of their talents, you get a perfect system. moss can do it all but u really do not need guys like that to thrive in a bel system. how did the galloways and chad jacksons work out?

    often, just knowing what u dont know can make u a great bel WR. again, great broad skillsets can be overrated and not necessary. u need 2 speedsters not 4. 2 caldwells not 3, and so on. same with a welker. many here denigrate our WRs, like carraway, yet look at how many of them get paid when they leave as free agents. tells u y perception of others matter, how they actually view them. givens, branch,, fauria, stallworth, that other david guy among others, all got generations of their families to be set for life financially from other more idiotic teams!  

    Cutler had similar things in place and took it for granted. great, loyal, nonmeddling ownership with deep pockets. great fan base. great OL, receivers and running backs out the wazooo. plus a new, young innovative coach and team designed to make him even better. no doubt, he would be even better than last year and be progressing rather than regressing esp in confidence, if only had the logic and common sense to grasp the great oppotunity that fate dropped in his lap. his extention too would have come, just as it eventually did with the bears. he would have been the face of both the franchise and the CITY. oh well...   
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pyegian. Show pyegian's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    I'm no Chargers fan but that comparison is very unfair to Rivers.  He's never thrown as many interceptions in a SEASON as Cutler has through 8 games.  Cutler's career QB rating is 84, and Rivers' is 94.  Rivers is a much, much better quarterback than Cutler, and I have him as a top 5 NFL qb right now.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from choircontrarian. Show choircontrarian's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:
    I'm no Chargers fan but that comparison is very unfair to Rivers.  He's never thrown as many interceptions in a SEASON as Cutler has through 8 games.  Cutler's career QB rating is 84, and Rivers' is 94.  Rivers is a much, much better quarterback than Cutler, and I have him as a top 5 NFL qb right now.
    Posted by pyegian
    i agree! cutler is more like a YOUNG peyton, favre or more accurately.... TONY ROMO with more arm strength.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from choircontrarian. Show choircontrarian's posts

    Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!

    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler!:
    In Response to Re: Systems matter... Mr. Brady, meet Mr. Cutler! : The difference between Manning and Brady is that Manning is the system.  If he goes down, the drop off would be incredible.  Over time, I've come to realize that where Brady outshines Manning is in pure physical gifts.  He's got a better arm than Manning.  I don't know that he is more accurate overall than Manning, but on the hard throws, I think Brady makes those throws better than Manning.  But there is something to be said about a system.  the pats proved last year that they can win 11 games with a QB that hasn't started since High School.  Talent matters and the pats have that in spades and that helped Cassell.  But the pats also have a system of play that Cassell knew well and was not too difficult for him to execute. 
    Posted by underdogg
    dogg, peyton is really just channelling SORGI. sorry dude, that offense will be just fine if manning wasnt there in time (sorgi could be cassel). manning and brady could fit into most systems. could they continue to win or put up the great stats? not necessarily. the receivers are pretty much the same. apart from one or 2 truly stud guys, the rest are bargains and products of great scouting, drafting STEALS. about findg guys for your system rather than well-known national brand names that could get fantasy owners buzzing and get on tv each week. dallas clark is perfect for the colts, could he be as productive for most teams esp in a standard TE set? i say "no". Edelman? pats are one of the few (if not the ONLY) teams that would take that kind of risk with him.  
     
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